The Importance Of A Tap Ruckman.

[RegHickeyStand]

Hawkins not fit. He blew up before half time. And I'm pretty sure they knew that. If they had wanted Blake, he would have been in. They want Hawkins. This game will help get him fit.

The Pies had it in their forward 50 for most of the game. Can't see how having Blake in would have helped that.

We will be 10 goals better in the finals.

 

[doodl]

Nothing in it. Hawkins was terrible yes, and is clearly Sh!tscared to jump at the ball or run full tilt because of his foot. But when you win the hitouts and lose the clearances that means your running players are not doing their jobs. We lost because many times our fwd/mid/def were either not leading to help each other, were not shepherding for each other and were kicking the ball straight back to the opposition a ridiculous amount tonight.

The fact that all of this occurred and we didn't even get the flogging we so richly deserved by the in form team at the moment is good. We just need to give one or two guns a rest, work out which combination of big men we want and then go full tilt when it counts.

 

[proboy]

hawkins not fit. He blew up before half time. And i'm pretty sure they knew that. If they had wanted blake, he would have been in. They want hawkins. This game will help get him fit.

The pies had it in their forward 50 for most of the game. Can't see how having blake in would have helped that.

We will be 10 goals better in the finals.

totally agree with this

 

[Nankervis brothers]

Nothing in it. Hawkins was terrible yes, and is clearly Sh!tscared to jump at the ball or run full tilt because of his foot. But when you win the hitouts and lose the clearances that means your running players are not doing their jobs. We lost because many times our fwd/mid/def were either not leading to help each other, were not shepherding for each other and were kicking the ball straight back to the opposition a ridiculous amount tonight.

The fact that all of this occurred and we didn't even get the flogging we so richly deserved by the in form team at the moment is good. We just need to give one or two guns a rest, work out which combination of big men we want and then go full tilt when it counts.

I agree with alot of this, especially the bolded part.

COLL have had a very settled line up this season, and are in red-hot form. GEE have had an unsettled line up, have only very recently hit good form, and have had their best 22 available for only a fortnight. We have more potential improvement than the PIES. But working out what we are doing with our talls is a massive issue. The combination was not right tonight, especially in the ruck.

 

[Heapoie]

Hawkins cannot ruck. He rarely even jumps at the contest and, like most key forwards who are given spells in the ruck (e.g. Roughead), he doesn't want to ruck. We are currently playing with one half-fit ruckman and another who simply acts as a step ladder for the opposition. Blake needs to come back into the side so he can provide the midfielders with the quality service he consistently delivers.

 

[Conan Troutman]

The issue isn't how many taps Hawkins gets compared to Blake. It is how many find a Geelong player. Blake gives our followers first use more often. That is a fact. Our number of clearances with him in the team are very good.

Hawkins might be a better ruck option in the future. He will absolutely provide more around the ground than Blake. But that is the future. We are trying to drain one more premiership from a team whose window will close at the end of this year. With that in mind, i'd rather see GEE go with an experienced ruckman at this point. Let Hawkins run around in the ruck next year when we start rebuilding. We have given Hawkins some time in ruck. Great. Now back to tried and true system.

Yeah fair point Nankervis, they are cutting it pretty fine just before finals. Will be interesting to which way they go. Hopefully Hawkins can quickly get back to the form he showed prior to his foot problem.

 

[ninjacat]

The Pies had it in their forward 50 for most of the game. Can't see how having Blake in would have helped that.
.

I am sick of our gameplan. Collingwood are almost playing the style that won us a flag in 2007, we used to go man on man when opposition kicks out from our points, and lock it in our F50. Now we play this zone defence shit and the opposition can get it through too easily. They don't exactly play man on man but they play a F50 press and it's winning them games. We don't have enough runners in the centre, they get their forwards to run down and pressure our midfielders and they often get a spare man back in our forward line. It's almost impossible for us to pick out a loose man in the F50 the way we did so well in 07/08.

We can't rely on flair and skill to save us, we crash ordinary teams with it but we haven't comprehensively beaten a top 4 side this year with our game plan. If we don't beat the Dogs next week then it's going to be a real struggle getting flag 3 with this lot.

We're not invincible so Bomber has to get smarter with his strategy.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

I am sick of our gameplan. Collingwood are almost playing the style that won us a flag in 2007, we used to go man on man when opposition kicks out from our points, and lock it in our F50. Now we play this zone defence shit and the opposition can get it through too easily. They don't exactly play man on man but they play a F50 press and it's winning them games. We don't have enough runners in the centre, they get their forwards to run down and pressure our midfielders and they often get a spare man back in our forward line. It's almost impossible for us to pick out a loose man in the F50 the way we did so well in 07/08.

We can't rely on flair and skill to save us, we crash ordinary teams with it but we haven't comprehensively beaten a top 4 side this year with our game plan. If we don't beat the Dogs next week then it's going to be a real struggle getting flag 3 with this lot.

We're not invincible so Bomber has to get smarter with his strategy.

COLL are not playing our style circa 2007, or for that matter 2008, 09, or 10. They do not play-on at all cost, and do not use the corridor like Geelong, but rather chip along the boundary and carefully construct their forward movement. It is a very different style. What they are doing, like GEE over the last four years, is applying incredible pressure on the opposition when they have the ball. But COLL have a very different way of moving the football from GEE.

We have an ageing list (the second oldest, beside STK). This is our last shot at a flag with this list. All i want to see GEE do between now and Sept. is do enough to make the four, and rest players who need it. I want to see them become as ready as possible for a last tilt at the flag. I say keep the game plan, and focus on player management at this point.

 

[Gladbaqs]

Keep hearing commentator after commentator say that the days of the centre square specialist ruckman are dead.

But when you've got somebody who can stick their knee into (for example) Leigh Brown's chest and palm down to Ablett on the burst - it does come ever-so-slightly in handy in the crunch centre square bounces mid way through big games.

I cannot believe I actually want Blake in the team...

 

[CHIEF SMACKAHOE]

a mobile ruckman would definitely be more useful than a dinosaur nowadays, only problem is that hawkins isn't a ruckman

he was stuffed before halftime, he makes anthony rocca look like robert harvey

 

[ninjacat]

COLL are not playing our style circa 2007, or for that matter 2008, 09, or 10. They do not play-on at all cost, and do not use the corridor like Geelong, but rather chip along the boundary and carefully construct their forward movement. It is a very different style. What they are doing, like GEE over the last four years, is applying incredible pressure on the opposition when they have the ball. But COLL have a very different way of moving the football from GEE.

We have an ageing list (the second oldest, beside STK). This is our last shot at a flag with this list. All i want to see GEE do between now and Sept. is do enough to make the four, and rest players who need it. I want to see them become as ready as possible for a last tilt at the flag. I say keep the game plan, and focus on player management at this point.

Yes I didn't mean copying our gameplan, it's well known they like to hug the boundary and at some stages we were making it hard for them and ensuring we were well manned up on their wing runners. I thought that perhaps we were going to have their measure here but it broke down again after the 2nd qtr.

I just really meant the way we used to lock it in our F50 with a more man-on-man approach, now we seem to play zone and make it easier for them to get it out after we kick a behind.

The way they lock it in their F50 is a bit different, Collingwood still use a bit of a zone defense but they press everyone up so that their zones are a bit tighter and subsequently its harder for us to thread the needle out and into our F50.

To their credit Collingwood just work harder, I guess if we really wanted flag no 3 we would too are we just going to turn it on come finals? I mean they would be our likely opponents in a GF, we should have gone all out to beat them tonight and not give them the mental edge that they know they can beat us.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

^^^^ninja cat

You may well be spot on with regard to no longer locking it in our F50 with a man on man approach. But that aside, i reckon there a three major reasons we lost tonight.

The first is that we haven't cemented our tall line up. It needs to be worked out. Are we really going to keep experimenting with Hawkins in the ruck? Should Blake come back (i think he should)? If so, do we play Pod's or Hawkins forward? The second is that the stakes of the game were higher for COLL. They needed this win more than we did.
And thirdly, GEE are only two weeks into having their best 22 available. COLL have had something close to their best 22 all season.

This wasn't too bad a loss for us. If 2010 runs like 2009, then COLL are in for some serious shit come september. And the club does seem to be organising 2010 like they did 2009. Here is hoping, anyway.

 

[Partridge]

We have an ageing list (the second oldest, beside STK). This is our last shot at a flag with this list. All i want to see GEE do between now and Sept. is do enough to make the four, and rest players who need it. I want to see them become as ready as possible for a last tilt at the flag. I say keep the game plan, and focus on player management at this point.

Well it's going to be the ultimate test of the "resting players" argument, because right now we don't look near challenging for the premiership. It's fine to play a good 10 minutes or so, and we did that tonight (especially in the second quarter), but we haven't played four solid consistent quarters of high quality football in a long time. We've been nowhere near as consistent as Collingwood and nowhere near as good. Anyone who thinks we're going to magically flick a switch in September is kidding themselves unless something changes dramatically.

What makes it worse is the hordes of Geelong fans who mindlessly, stupidly and arrogantly think we're so superior and that we're still gliding towards the Grand Final. On what I saw tonight we'll bomb out in straight sets. We have key forwards who don't kick goals. We're trying to turn a key forward into a ruckman, even though his hitouts are non-existent. We have to play the Dogs next week (could easily lose that), and then Carlton (who've beaten us the last 2 times). If we do make the top 4, we could end up limping into 4th and facing Collingwood again, who have just proven they are right now a better side. Not an ideal scenario.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Agree. As I said to SJ after the game, when I said I have resigned myself to JPOD being dropped next week even though tonight wasn't his fault, the SJ said:

"Not Pods fault. 30 inside 50's for the whole match. I think we can all finally agree that Hawkins is not a ruckman and that a tap ruckman is so important. Blake please".

Despite the fact that I don't like Blake, for pragmatic reasons I must agree. And the most disturbing thing for tonight was not that we lost the hitouts (let's face it, Jolly is a good ruckman) but that Hawkins didn't look fit. Either he has no confidence in his foot, or it's just not fit. Surely we can agree that although Pods didn't play that well tonight, he's at least physically fit and capable of playing a part in September. Has to be Hawkins out and Blake in, but I doubt it will happen.

Let's see how our rucks go next week.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Also, my addition is, Bomber, if you refuse to bring Blake back until he works on the stuff that you want him to work on, at least bring back West. Even he would be a better ruckman than Hawkins right now. Thank you.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Mate who cares if a ruckman can bloody tackle or not. We have 21 other people on the ground that can do that. What we do not have is a decent ruckman anymore. Ottens has been a great player for us but he is not at peak fitness nor peak age. He did well tonight but will probably be beaten by most number one rucks these days.

Blake brings something to the table that no one else in the team can. We lost the clearances 29 to 45 tonight. The 2009 Champion Data Prospectus showed that Blake was in the top bracket of ruckman at hitouts and hitouts to advantage. We didn't lose tonight because of the defenders or forwards, we lost because we got spanked in the middle and went inside 50 half the amount of times Collingwood did.

I agree with everything you said however I must make one additional relevant, if slightly off topic point. Yes, we lost clearances because of the ruck thing (at least partially) but we also lost the hard ball gets again which has happened the last few weeks, and is the complete antithesis of the Geelong way. Our midfielders (as all the rest of our 22) need to take as much responsibility for the loss tonight as Hawkins.

 

[Roadie]

What makes it worse is the hordes of Geelong fans who mindlessly, stupidly and arrogantly think we're so superior and that we're still gliding towards the Grand Final. On what I saw tonight we'll bomb out in straight sets. We have key forwards who don't kick goals. We're trying to turn a key forward into a ruckman, even though his hitouts are non-existent. We have to play the Dogs next week (could easily lose that), and then Carlton (who've beaten us the last 2 times). If we do make the top 4, we could end up limping into 4th and facing Collingwood again, who have just proven they are right now a better side. Not an ideal scenario.

Partridge get some new material already. Every bloody post is the same miserable toss, have a jab at the team, then have a jab at the supporters like you're above the rest of us. You're not special mate, we can all see the same issues you're seeing, we're all a bit unsure on what's going to happen next. But faith in the club and arrogance are not the same thing.

If you must brick it everytime we lose a game, be a pal and do it without the bogus sense of superiority.

 

[Jabso]

The thing I was surprised by last night was the fact that Hawkins spent 0 minutes in the forward line. We had Reid, our CHB go down in the first 10 minutes. Although Maxwell ended up playing very well on Mooney that is not an ideal match up and having Mooney, Hawkins and Pods down there would have stretched us, we would have had to put Goldsack or O'Brien on a tall.

With that aside I think if you're going to play a slightly undersized key forward in the ruck just to 'compete' he has to have very good aerobic capacity to play most of the game, like Leigh Brown does. I'm not saying Leigh Brown is the perfect 2nd ruckman, but since Fraser's been out of the side we've found a good ruck formula that means we aren't forced to keep one on the ground and one on the bench because of inflexibility. Also ruckman seem to do better the more time they have on the ground, they aren't quick athletes so it's not like they're midfielders who run off the bench full of explosive pace, they need time to settle in.

 

[SmothOperRaider]

Overreact much?

Blake plays we lose by 40.

Rooke in for Lonergan, nothing to see here.

For those losing their shit, take a look at round 21 last year. Take a look at two weeks later. Calm the F down and accept Hawk will win us another premiership this year.

 

[Purrfect Pussies]

We got smashed with the turn-overs (and not all forced errors either). I don't think Blakes tap work would have made that big a difference.

I think it would have helped a bit if Blake was taking ruck contests instead of Bartel. *** me, that looked dumb. We have the best midfield in the league, give them first use.

Varcoe looks such a smooth mover, just looks to have more time than the rest. Byrnes continues to frustrate me, can see him making way for Wojo.

Premierships aren't won in August. Happy to see Bomber try things now. Gee, doesn't that spud Davis go missing in the big games. Horrible record.

 

[thejester]

Blake didn't get dropped for structure, he got dropped for form...it'll depend on who plays well in the VFL but I don't think the coaching staff should automatically say 'shit we need a ruckman Blake's back in.' He needs to earn his spot like everyone else. Last time we play Collingwood a lot of people here had him in the votes and it was almost certainly the best game he's ever played, in part because of his perceived shitness - Collingwood paid him no respect and gave him acres of space and time and he hurt them with it. Whether or not they'd do that again is up for debate, but you wouldn't want to bank on it when picking the side.

OTOH I'd love to see anyone of Blake, West or Simpson get back in the side purely to see Luke Darcy's reaction - his 'modern ruckman need to do everything but ruck!' argument is looking stupider by the day.

 

[proboy]

Overreact much?

Blake plays we lose by 40.

Rooke in for Lonergan, nothing to see here.

For those losing their shit, take a look at round 21 last year. Take a look at two weeks later. Calm the F down and accept Hawk will win us another premiership this year.

CORRECT!

 

[_Me_]

I think a few people are missing the point. We need another ruckman as Hawkins can not do it. But we need a ruckman who can ruck, and also chase and tackle. That is why the loss of Mummy was huge. West should be given 3 weeks to show if he is up to the grade, otherwise Blake plays as we have no other option.

 

[Vdubs]

I think a few people are missing the point. We need another ruckman as Hawkins can not do it. But we need a ruckman who can ruck, and also chase and tackle. That is why the loss of Mummy was huge. West should be given 3 weeks to show if he is up to the grade, otherwise Blake plays as we have no other option.

Why are people so intent on having a ruck who can chase and tackle? Just because Mumford does? We won 2 flags with King, who is not renowned to be strong in that area, and last year with Blake. Ottens does the odd chase then he's stuffed. Surely the ruck is to give our mids first use of the ball, maybe to defend at times, and maybe to rest up forward and get a few goals. We have so many that can chase and tackle, or do we?

 

[_Me_]

Why are people so intent on having a ruck who can chase and tackle? Just because Mumford does? We won 2 flags with King, who is not renowned to be strong in that area, and last year with Blake. Ottens does the odd chase then he's stuffed. Surely the ruck is to give our mids first use of the ball, maybe to defend at times, and maybe to rest up forward and get a few goals. We have so many that can chase and tackle, or do we?

If you look at ruckman like Hille, when they play well they win their fair share of hit outs and win the ball in general play. yesterday brown rucked but killed us around the ground, playing as a ruckman. The game is long past someone who can only ruck, he needs to provide a target and impose himself on the game. Otherwise the rest of the team is at a disadvantage. Blake is not up to the standard of a second ruckman, because of his lastlustre performance. We need to give game time to West to see if he can bridge the gap.

As for Mummy he clearly shows what is possible in a short period of time.