UK The Queen

[Gethelred]

This thread is actively moderated, let's behave like adults, shall we?

For conversation on an Australian Republic:

Who wants a Republic?

I am just curious in the figure as it has been over 10 years since we had a referendum for it. Personally, I think we should become a Republic.

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Roylion]

Good idea, let's cover it all up and teach an alternate history like we have been doing.

And what 'alternate history' 'like we have been doing' have we been teaching? Ever looked at the curriculum?

 

[Festerz]

The Republic of Ireland exists does it not? I seem to be a citizen of such a country.

Yes - but it is not Ireland. Just as the provinces of Northern Ireland are not Ireland.

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are 2 distinct parts of Ireland.

I would have thought a citizen of the Republic of Ireland would know that.

And at least a cursory understanding of the recent history of Ireland including the partition of Ireland into 2 separate parts by the British Government in 1920 that made it so.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

The English took 1/4 of the country and called it Northern Ireland which is now part of the Queen's Empire.
Before that, the island of Ireland was one country called Ireland.
Do I need to explain that to you? What do you think the IRA and Sein Fein and the Troubles was all about?
One country invaded another country and annexed part of their land. It's called theft.

Actually the English crown took all of Kingdoms in Eire and proclaimed themselves Kings of Ireland. They conquered the whole thing. They then ruled it for multiple centuries before granting the Southern Catholic Majority Counties independence after a period of armed insurrection and protest. Where upon the Irish started killing each other in a Civil War because some of them wouldn't accept the terms. Ireland as a nation state is a modern invention and there was no unified Kingdom before the English conquest of Eire. If you're going to spin history at least spin all of it.

 

[CheapCharlie]

If someone asks me a month from now (probably even less tbh) i wont be able to tell you the date she died tbh. What an odd post to suggest we'll all remember this lol. Ill remember Warnie passing much more clearly than the bloody queen

The death of Warnie shocked and saddened more Australians than the death of the queen ever could

 

[Roylion]

The English took 1/4 of the country and called it Northern Ireland which is now part of the Queen's Empire.

Did they? I was under the impression that the territory that became Northern Ireland, within the Irish province of Ulster had a Protestant and Unionist majority that wanted to maintain ties to Britain

Before that, the island of Ireland was one country called Ireland.

When was that? Could you provide the dates that country existed? Was it before or after 1169?

Do I need to explain that to you? What do you think the IRA and Sein Fein and the Troubles was all about?

You tell me. What the hell would I know? I'm only a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and my recent ancestors are from the border between Ulster and the current Republic of Ireland. I have cousins that still live there.

One country invaded another country and annexed part of their land. It's called theft.

Tell me all about it. When did this happen?

 

[burge13]

Good idea, let's cover it all up and teach an alternate history like we have been doing.
The British Empire is covered with blood and killing, but you probably weren't taught that part.

Never said cover it up. History can still be taught without weird obsessions with trying to make people who werent alive when it happened, feel guilty for it

 

[Roylion]

Yes - but it is not Ireland. Just as the provinces of Northern Ireland are not Ireland.

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are 2 distinct parts of Ireland.

I would have thought a citizen of the Republic of Ireland would know that.

I'm a citizen of a country called Ireland (Eire). Ireland is officially known as the Republic of Ireland (just like Australia is known as the Commonwealth of Australia) and is independent of the United Kingdom.

And at least a cursory understanding of the recent history of Ireland including the partition of Ireland into 2 separate parts by the British Government in 1920 that made it so.

My family is very well aware of the events of 1920, I can assure you.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

And what 'alternate history' 'like we have been doing' have we been teaching? Ever looked at the curriculum?

I dunno about you, but I got 2 weeks in a year , in year 11 on Indigenous history ,which basically said they were pretty useless and they were lucky the British came here.
Also a lot of the massacres by British forces in Africa, India and here have not been part of the history ciricullum.

 

[parsons nose]

And in an uncanny stroke of good luck for the major news networks, Lizzie turned up toes on a day when there were no other news stories.

 

[Roylion]

Actually the English crown took all of Kingdoms in Eire and proclaimed themselves Kings of Ireland.

The Kingdoms of Leinster, Connacht, Munster, Meath (the Southern Ui Neill) and Ulster (the Northern Ui Neill) were the major kingdoms of Ireland. The Anglo Normans, ruled at that time by Henry II, were invited by Diarmait Mac Murchada, the king of Leinster who had been dethroned to help him regain his throne. Henry eventually granted Leinster to a vassal of his and Meath to another, but the rest of Ireland wasn't really brought under the control of the English Crown until the time of Tudors.

 

[Roylion]

I dunno about you, but I got 2 weeks in a year , in year 11 on Indigenous history ,which basically said they were pretty useless and they were lucky the British came here.

I teach the growth of the British empire as part of a VCE history unit and I can assure you the relationship between the various indigenous peoples and British colonists is well covered.

Also a lot of the massacres by British forces in Africa, India and here have not been part of the history ciricullum.

Haven't they? How do you know?

 

[Festerz]

I'm a citizen of a country called Ireland (Eire). Ireland is officially known as the Republic of Ireland (just like Australia is known as the Commonwealth of Australia) and is independent of the United Kingdom.

Interesting.

Wikipedia provides a more extensive summary about the distinction between the geopolitical separation of Ireland into 2 parts and the official terminology adopted by the Republic:

According to the Constitution of Ireland, the names of the Irish state are 'Ireland' (in English) and 'Éire' (in Irish).[1] From 1922 to 1937, its legal name was 'the Irish Free State'. The state has jurisdiction over almost five-sixths of the island of Ireland. The rest of the island is Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom. Consequently, other formal and informal names have been (and are) used when it is necessary to distinguish between the territory of the state and the island as a whole. In 1948 it adopted the term Republic of Ireland as the 'official description of the state', without changing the constitutional names.[2]

The things you learn on BF.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Did they? I was under the impression that the territory that became Northern Ireland, within the Irish province of Ulster had a Protestant and Unionist majority that wanted to maintain ties to Britain


When was that? Could you provide the dates that country existed? Was it before or after 1169?



You tell me. What the hell would I know? I'm only a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and my recent ancestors are from the border between Ulster and the current Republic of Ireland. I have cousins that still live there.



Tell me all about it. When did this happen?

Don't be ridiculous. Irishmen have given their lives to unite Ireland which was stolen by the British.
First they went in and told all the farmers they now were working for British landlords, then they 'emigrated' in large numbers .
The Irish have been persecuted almost as much as Africans by the the British colonisers. You may not like hearing it but that's the facts.
Remember the hunger strikes when Thatcher wouldn't give any little concessions and people died.
Do you know the history of the 'Irish joke,'? That was started by the British to dehumanise Irish people, to make them out to be stupid and dumb . And that persists to this day.
Ask an Irishman what they think of the royal family .Look up what happened in the potato famine where millions starved to death.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

The Kingdoms of Leinster, Connacht, Munster, Meath (the Southern Ui Neill) and Ulster (the Northern Ui Neill) were the major kingdoms of Ireland. The Anglo Normans, ruled at that time by Henry II, were invited by Diarmait Mac Murchada, the king of Leinster who had been dethroned to help him regain his throne. Henry eventually granted Leinster to a vassal of his and Meath to another, but the rest of Ireland wasn't really brought under the control of the English Crown until the time of Tudors.

Yep the Tudors named themselves King of Ireland and completed the English conquest of Eire started by the Normans which is why I said centuries instead of nearly a millennia as the conquest wasn't completed until the 17th century

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

I teach the growth of the British empire as part of a VCE history unit and I can assure you the relationship between the various indigenous peoples and British colonists is well covered.


Haven't they? How do you know?

Do you teach your students about the massacres yourself then?

 

[Roylion]

Interesting.

Wikipedia provides a more extensive summary about the distinction between the geopolitical separation of Ireland into 2 parts and the official terminology adopted by the Republic:

According to the Constitution of Ireland, the names of the Irish state are 'Ireland' (in English) and 'Éire' (in Irish).[1] From 1922 to 1937, its legal name was 'the Irish Free State'. The state has jurisdiction over almost five-sixths of the island of Ireland. The rest of the island is Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom. Consequently, other formal and informal names have been (and are) used when it is necessary to distinguish between the territory of the state and the island as a whole. In 1948 it adopted the term Republic of Ireland as the 'official description of the state', without changing the constitutional names.[2]

The things you learn on BF.

Yes? And? Ireland is an independent country is it not? Isn't that what you were disputing in your original comment to me?

 

[tandino]

And in an uncanny stroke of good luck for the major news networks, Lizzie turned up toes on a day when there were no other news stories.

Imagine the mountains of trash governments and organisations are sneaking out the back door today.

 

[Roylion]

Do you teach your students about the massacres yourself then?

Which bit of "I teach the growth of the British empire as part of a VCE history unit and I can assure you the relationship between the various indigenous peoples and British colonists is well covered." didn't you understand?

 

[Roylion]

Don't be ridiculous. Irishmen have given their lives to unite Ireland which was stolen by the British.
First they went in and told all the farmers they now were working for British landlords, then they 'emigrated' in large numbers .
The Irish have been persecuted almost as much as Africans by the the British colonisers. You may not like hearing it but that's the facts.

I'm a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. My very recent ancestors are Irish. I'm very well aware of the 'facts'.

Do you know the history of the 'Irish joke,'? That was started by the British to dehumanise Irish people, to make them out to be stupid and dumb . And that persists to this day.

Do tell.

Ask an Irishman what they think of the royal family .Look up what happened in the potato famine where millions starved to death.

I'm well aware of it. I'm of very recent Irish descent. I teach the British empire at a senior History level.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Do you teach your students about the massacres yourself then?

Mate. Seriously. I get that you’re young but your grasp of history is just so lacking it’s embarrassing. Just stop.

 

[Better Loosen Up]

Mate. Seriously. I get that you’re young but your grasp of history is just so lacking it’s embarrassing. Just stop.

But the young ones know everything mate.

We should all sit back, listen and be greatful for their superior knowledge.

 

[Festerz]

Yes? And? Ireland is an independent country is it not? Isn't that what you were disputing in your original comment to me?

I was clarifying (for myself and maybe others) a point by reference to Wikipedia that I wasn't aware of - and that is the clear distinction between the post 1920 geopolitical separation of two parts of Ireland into the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland and the history of the way the Government of the Republic of Ireland (officially known as Ireland) refers to itself to distinguish between the territory of the state and the island as a whole.

Even more interesting (to me at least) is the fact that until the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, the British government and media declined to use the name 'Ireland', preferring 'Eire' (without accent) until 1949 and 'Republic of Ireland' thereafter.

AS i said, the things you learn in the backwaters of BF.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

But the young ones know everything mate.

We should all sit back, listen and be greatful for their superior knowledge.

It’s as though the French, the Dutch, the Portuguese, weren’t also sailing around colonising. It’s as though world history isn’t all about conquer or be conquered until about 1945.

It’s as though the Brits weren’t the first to outlaw slavery. As though the Brits weren’t the one single nation to look Hitler in the eye and say “no”.

My heritage in that region is Irish. I’m hardly a British Imperialist. But honestly, these university students just dish up absolute excrement when it comes to history.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

It’s as though the Brits weren’t the first to outlaw slavery.

Didn't just outlaw it they took to the seas and ended the Atlantic slave trade.

Although the old saying "The Sun never sets on the British Empire (because even God couldn't trust the English in the dark)." has a lot of truth to it.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Didn't just outlaw it they took to the seas and ended the Atlantic slave trade.

Although the old saying "The Sun never sets on the British Empire (because even God couldn't trust the English in the dark)." has a lot of truth to it.

It certainly does. But if you accept, as you must, the idea of superpowers, the British Empire followed by the US has been about as benign as could reasonably be hoped for given the alternatives.

That that isn’t understood is an absolute indictment on our schools. And it’s a frightening indication of what is to come as the US declines.