Opinion The Rebuild Thread

[Apex36]

I think that Pendles and Swan would be good steak knives... or maybe Elliot and Pendles

In all seriousness, if that sort of trade were to happen, your mob would be mad not to look at Kyle Martin. Yeah, he's a rookie, but is a ball magnet in the midfield and has ridiculous goal sense.
Pisses me off that we didn't upgrade him last year instead of picking up Armstrong...

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Like 'game plans' and 'structures' we keep hearing this rather esoteric word 'development'.

I'm genuine when asking the question - what is 'development' and how is it done.

In our case, does it just mean :
- throwing all the young guys in for the next 15 games and getting experience into them
- playing the kids for 2-3 games them resting them back in the VFL.
- bringing kids in to a play a specific role eg: do you let a Holman come in and play a run-with role for 6 weeks on the good players.

Hawthorn have played a number of debutants this year but expect it's easier to do this when you have a winning team. You can nurse a kid through a game.

Does having kids getting flogged every week 'develop' them or bruise them ?

Interested in peoples thoughts.

 

[95blues]

Like 'game plans' and 'structures' we keep hearing this rather esoteric word 'development'.

I'm genuine when asking the question - what is 'development' and how is it done.

In our case, does it just mean :
- throwing all the young guys in for the next 15 games and getting experience into them
- playing the kids for 2-3 games them resting them back in the VFL.
- bringing kids in to a play a specific role eg: do you let a Holman come in and play a run-with role for 6 weeks on the good players.

Hawthorn have played a number of debutants this year but expect it's easier to do this when you have a winning team. You can nurse a kid through a game.

Does having kids getting flogged every week 'develop' them or bruise them ?

Interested in peoples thoughts.

/* My original post seem to get deleted */

I think it's very difficult to develop players with the current culture at the club.

The good sides seem to be able to give a young rookie a simple single role to play during the match and its very difficult for them to fail. Collingwood, Sydney, Geelong and Hawthorn do it very well. I'd almost go so far as to say they could take a random draw from a State League side, pop him in one of those "roles" and he'd look better than half of our young guys.

Unfortunately in the present Carlton environment the kids get thrown in and its sink or swim, its every man for himself in our side by the looks of things.

 

[Jeremias]

In all seriousness, if that sort of trade were to happen, your mob would be mad not to look at Kyle Martin. Yeah, he's a rookie, but is a ball magnet in the midfield and has ridiculous goal sense.
Pisses me off that we didn't upgrade him last year instead of picking up Armstrong...

I don't mind Martin and he is a player I'd like us to look at, but we're not trading Garlett for a 2nd round pick and a player likely to be delisted.

 

[Blues_1864]

I think it's very difficult to develop players with the current culture at the club.

The good sides seem to be able to give a young rookie a simple single role to play during the match and its very difficult for them to fail. Collingwood, Sydney, Geelong and Hawthorn do it very well. I'd almost go so far as to say they could take a random draw from a State League side, pop him in one of those "roles" and he'd look better than half of our young guys.

Unfortunately in the present Carlton environment the kids get thrown in and its sink or swim, its every man for himself in our side by the looks of things.

This, exactly this. Everyone knows that junior-level footy is way different to the AFL; where top clubs are best is in teaching their youngest recruits what they need to do in order to progress in their team's pecking order.

And from that comes confidence. The kid is given a role he can understand, and so he can crack in without confusion. Whether or not he succeeds might be a question of ability... but kids that perform their roles are rewarded. When they're picked for the seniors, they already know what they need to do, and most of them quickly learn that they are in fact good enough to be at least a small cog at AFL level, especially when they are surrounded by other players that have come through the same process. From there, the better kids spread the wings and become progressively greater contributors, as well as showing the next generation of kids the way forward.

I don't believe our kidz is spudz, or has ever been spudz. But we've had plenty who've looked lost on an AFL field when first selected, and that to me is an indictment on development, not recruitment. "Sink or swim" is exactly how I would describe our environment for the past 10 years, and it is reflected by the shape of our list: a small number of high-fliers who have made it on the basis of natural ability (i.e. our first-round picks), and a larger number of "self made men" who have got where they are through a combination of hard work and self-discipline but not necessarily skill (i.e. the bulk of our ex-rookies). Good sides get a much, much greater contribution from the middle tier: kids from the lower reaches of the National Draft with some skills (and deficiencies), but who can be "machined" into skilled role-players in a good side. Collingwood and Geelong both have many such players, and their development structures are producing more all the time.

 

[Maggie5]

At 57 Malthouse coached a premiership & at 58 coached a team to a 20-2 home & away season, yet he is washed up at 60.

No I am not saying he is washed up as I was a big fan of Sheedy and I think he may be older. Perhaps I mis-read the post as I thought comparing Ferguson and the fact that he had the cream of players to coach, whereas it not as easy for AFL coaches.

 

[Aphrodite]

At 57 Malthouse coached a premiership & at 58 coached a team to a 20-2 home & away season, yet he is washed up at 60.

He coaches Carlton now come on MSR.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

This, exactly this. Everyone knows that junior-level footy is way different to the AFL; where top clubs are best is in teaching their youngest recruits what they need to do in order to progress in their team's pecking order.

And from that comes confidence. The kid is given a role he can understand, and so he can crack in without confusion. Whether or not he succeeds might be a question of ability... but kids that perform their roles are rewarded. When they're picked for the seniors, they already know what they need to do, and most of them quickly learn that they are in fact good enough to be at least a small cog at AFL level, especially when they are surrounded by other players that have come through the same process. From there, the better kids spread the wings and become progressively greater contributors, as well as showing the next generation of kids the way forward.

I don't believe our kidz is spudz, or has ever been spudz. But we've had plenty who've looked lost on an AFL field when first selected, and that to me is an indictment on development, not recruitment. "Sink or swim" is exactly how I would describe our environment for the past 10 years, and it is reflected by the shape of our list: a small number of high-fliers who have made it on the basis of natural ability (i.e. our first-round picks), and a larger number of "self made men" who have got where they are through a combination of hard work and self-discipline but not necessarily skill (i.e. the bulk of our ex-rookies). Good sides get a much, much greater contribution from the middle tier: kids from the lower reaches of the National Draft with some skills (and deficiencies), but who can be "machined" into skilled role-players in a good side. Collingwood and Geelong both have many such players, and their development structures are producing more all the time.

..and I remember thinking this was a really great attribute of Mick Malthouse coached teams.

It's obviously gone wrong at Carlton - so what's caused this ?

I think leadership is one cause. A Collingwood or Hawthorn will have a Maxwell and a Hodge directing traffic and staying on top of young guys. Do we have the same type of 'generals' out on the ground. He is under the gun at the moment and we will continue to question the $700k for years to come but one thing I think Daisy Thomas at least brings to the team is his desperation and leadership (and I know Friday night was not a great example of this).


What about the coaching at the VFL level. Is there are consistent message and role for each player ?

 

[AndyLucimitis]

This was an interesting question. MM did a splendid job of rebuilding Collingwood but he was 46 then. He was the right man for the time. In his third year he took us from a spoon to a grand final, It was a herculean effort.

Can he do the same at the Blues? I am agreeing with Robert Walls. MM is now 60 and it smells of Denis Pagan all over again, and more heart-break for a once great club.

Cannot believe how long you guys have been mediocre for. Personally, it's no secret being a Collingwood supporter that I don't want to see Carlton do well, and you can respect that, cause the feeling is mutual no doubt, that's why our rivalry is great, but in another sense, Carlton have been down for so long, and they are obviously entering another rebuild phase, that it really is sad for the game and sad for this rivalry whilst Collingwood have been up for so long, playing finals and grand finals for over a decade.

In fact, if you factor in Collingwood's bad run in the nineties, when was the last time both sides were up? Was way back in the early eighties and I wasn't even around then.

It could turn quick, look at PA, no-one could have predicted their rise, so who-knows, but it must be depressing supporting the Blues right now.

Whilst I'm not suggesting this has been some glorious era of success but reading your post and listening to the media this weekend, there has been a bit of revisionism done on Carlton's success.

We started from a long way back in 2004/2005 - they were some of the worst sides to run out on an AFL ground. We rebuilt from the ground up and managed to make it as far as 5th in 2011 (3 points off Top 4). In fact, I think I'm right in saying around this time 2 years ago we were 3-0 and had just beaten the Pies by 10 goals (and beat you again in the return round).

As I said, hasn't been the success we would have liked but we have been far from the worst club going around in the last 10 years.

You are correct though - right now, it's depressing (and embarrassing) and we need to rebuild so we can compete with the big boys again - we are currently miles off as Mick said. We aren't the first club that needs to rebuild and won't be the last (although you wouldn't know this if you listen to media at the moment - seems like every club are recruiting geniuses apart from Carlton).

I'm a bit more buoyant than the last time because I think we have a far better base to rebuild with so hopefully it wont be as long and as painful as the previous one back in 04/05.

 

[95blues]

Whilst I'm not suggesting this has been some glorious era of success but reading your post and listening to the media this weekend, there has been a bit of revisionism done on Carlton's success.

We started from a long way back in 2004/2005 - they were some of the worst sides to run out on an AFL ground. We rebuilt from the ground up and managed to make it as far as 5th in 2011 (3 points off Top 4). In fact, I think I'm right in saying around this time 2 years ago we were 3-0 and had just beaten the Pies by 10 goals (and beat you again in the return round).

As I said, hasn't been the success we would have liked but we have been far from the worst club going around in the last 10 years.

You are correct though - right now, it's depressing (and embarrassing) and we need to rebuild so we can compete with the big boys again - we are currently miles off as Mick said. We aren't the first club that needs to rebuild and won't be the last (although you wouldn't know this if you listen to media at the moment - seems like every club are recruiting geniuses apart from Carlton).

I'm a bit more buoyant than the last time because I think we have a far better base to rebuild with so hopefully it wont be as long and as painful as the previous one back in 04/05.

I actually think that we are far more talented than people give us credit... unfortunately it isnt all adding up to a good quality team.

 

[Apex36]

I don't mind Martin and he is a player I'd like us to look at, but we're not trading Garlett for a 2nd round pick and a player likely to be delisted.

If Martin was delisted there would be riots I reckon. I'm still pretty adamant that he will be upgraded to the senior list at this years draft.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

You didn't know 60 is the end road?

Well after the Budget next Tuesday he won't be able to retire till 70. Guess there's a 10 year plan in there somewhere

 

[Blueboiiz]

Mick is in charge, have faith in the process.

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

Mick is in charge, have faith in the process.

Hahahhaa! Yaz is creepily staring into my eyes.

 

[Kensa Carter]

Mick is in charge, have faith in the process.

didn't notice little Pratt in the corner till later!

 

[thylacine60]

Hahahhaa! Yaz is creepily staring into my eyes.

Bullshit, he's looking straight at me.

 

[SayWhatAgain]

I'm hyperventilating at the rumors of Silvagni a possibility to come back to the club.

Don't even care if people think it's a massive boys club thing, the return of SOS will make my head explode with excitement.

 

[etsal1]

I'm hyperventilating at the rumors of Silvagni a possibility to come back to the club.

Don't even care if people think it's a massive boys club thing, the return of SOS will make my head explode with excitement.

SOS is contracted to GWS for next 2 years so don't get too excited.

 

[Jeremias]

I'm still yet to be convinced that SOS is what we need at the moment.

Credit where it's due, he's done a great job in his current role but I'm not falling for it. Give a chimpanzee the draft picks he's had access to and you'd likely see a similar success rate.

We'll be able to gauge SOS' true value from here on now that the concessions handed to the expansion clubs are subsiding.

 

[forwardflanker]

Can any of kids play? If so then there's a reasonable conflict of interest issue if he were to come back as list manager.

 

[etsal1]

Luke McDonald's dad works at Norf.
Tom Scully's dad is on the payroll @ GWS.

 

[forwardflanker]

Luke McDonald's dad works at Norf.
Tom Scully's dad is on the payroll @ GWS.

Donald McDonald left the football department this year I think because there might be a perceived conflict of interest; and even if you can't past the shifty reason why Scully ended up at GWS, there isn't really a conflict now because he is a recruiter and scully has already been recruited. List manager on the other hand has massive potential for future conflicts of interest.

 

[Big Sim]

Whately, Sellars and David King were discussing us on Grandstand on Saturday in what I thought was a pretty intelligent manner.

Gist of it was that the Collingwood game was final, irrefutable proof of where we are at right now with this list: no chance of competing against a top 4 side, virtually no chance of playing finals. They all agreed that we have been kidding ourselves for a long time, but could no longer and it was time to rebuild. Not worry about winning week to week, but selecting teams with an eye to the future and taking the wins when and if they come. This means no more Scotland or McLean unless as sub, playing kids to see what they can deliver, and no high priced recruits like Thomas, who they all thought was a massive mistake in the context of our position.

I agree mostly but I think they and all the I told you sos are very good with hindsight. I doubt anyone who watched the 2011 Elimination Final vs the Eagles imagined that it was the highwater mark rather than the launching pad. Hell, the media universally annointed us as flag favourites when we started 2012 with a blast. Huge fall from there however and the reasons for this have been discussed ad nauseum here there and everywhere since so I will leave that alone. Suffice to say our recruiting has been off the mark with far too many high draft picks failing and far too much work going into developing rookies with huge deficiencies in their stead. We now have some huge holes in our list and are fielding teams with some players who are simply not good enough.

So now it boils down to recruitment and development. I think we need to focus on youth but to develop our youth we need to hang onto our good mature players, so Thomas could well prove a good get in that regard. Don't want any of our good players traded out because we have too few but if we finish near the bottom and can get a high first rounder in compo for Gibbs we should look at it pretty hard.

Need to be ruthless at the end of the year. If someone can't perform all the basic skills required of an AFL player then out they go.

 

[Big Sim]

And we will be but it doesn't necessarily constitute a re-build.

You can consider us having been ruthless last year when we moved on 10 players in one way or another.
Hampson, Betts, McCarthy, Mitchell, Joseph, Davies, Collins, O'Keeffe, Laidler and Duigan. You can say Scotland also as he has been demoted.
I can't help but wonder which of these guys would still be at the club should have Ratten still been in charge. Scary thought.

You are right harks, I should have said ruthless again...but skills are the all important criteria for me. Hawthorn and Geelong are the best in the land because all their players can hit targets and make good decisions. We have players in our starting line up who can't and while we do we will never, every contend.

 

[ShanDog]

I am sure we will see a big turnover again this year, particularly when you consider the club always said it would do it as well as the current win/loss situation we are in.

The club has been a bit wishy-washy with the messages it has sent about our position and plans, but I can't recall the big list turnover ever being in doubt.