Opinion The Rebuild Thread

[LordLucifer]

Yes but I prefer the team hold their structure and develop learning to play the game the right way and not play a team full of holes, players out of position and young players copping tags etc. Taking the broom to all the older players for the sake of it does a lot of damage, we've all seen that, we've all seen how it worked out for Melbourne. I don't want us playing to lose, that doesn't work either.

I'm not suggesting we pension off the older players just for the sake of it, let them complete their current contracts over the next couple of years and then retire gracefully. Waite is out of contract at the end of this season and will turn 32yo before next season starts so I do not understand why you would offer him another contract.

On the flipside, we need to make some strong calls on those players who are not getting regular senior selection. If they are fringe players with questionable attitudes or skills, then we need to swap them over for players who do.

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

Regardless of his awful season I can't have Hendo as a match-winner just yet. Even your other three need a benevolent eye to qualify.

I'm have a similar curmudgeonly outlook, but I'm trying to tread a middle road. Judd and Murphy are beyond proven. Gibbs is very consistent and has shown glimpses of tearing the game apart as well. A fit, 26-27 year old Henderson (the point at which most CHFs switch on) should be a terrifying thing to behold.

Armfield, Robinson and Warnock have one elite skill (pace, bullocking, hitouts) and are below average in crucial other areas, which is a problem with a lot of our list. Rowe is honestly just hanging in there as a defender. We seem to be enamoured with 'raw talent' and assume we can bring players up to speed in kicking etc., but it's not happening.

 

[gbatman]

I'm not suggesting we pension off the older players just for the sake of it, let them complete their current contracts over the next couple of years and then retire gracefully. Waite is out of contract at the end of this season and will turn 32yo before next season starts so I do not understand why you would offer him another contract.

On the flipside, we need to make some strong calls on those players who are not getting regular senior selection. If they are fringe players with questionable attitudes or skills, then we need to swap them over for players who do.

Who do you replace him with? What tall running around in the VFL do we bring in?

 

[Azul]

Who do you replace him with? What tall running around in the VFL do we bring in?

The club have options with free agency and trades.

They have the opportunity to restructure a forward line Casboult and Henderson and, hopefully, Kreuzer.

Johnson is set to debut any week now as a medium forward.

Carlton survived the loss of Fevola; they will survive the loss of Waite.

 

[LordLucifer]

Who do you replace him with? What tall running around in the VFL do we bring in?

What are you worried about replacing here Gbat ??

- his 14 games per annum
- his 13 goal haul so far this season
- his career average of 1.3 goals per match
- his regular undisciplined acts

Or are you just focussing on the two blinders he plays every season ??

 

[BM123]

Waite messes up Carlton mentally in my opinion. I'm still dirty on him for conceding that 50 metre penalty against Brisbane since he rivals Jack Riewoldt with his petulance and laziness at times.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Port's success is not due to the last 2 years of drafting. It's probably closer to the last 6 or 7. Lobbe, Wingard, Hartlett, Boak, trading for Schulz, Jonas, Trengrove, Broadbent, Pittard etc.

Only players from the last two drafts are Wines, Impey & Monfries & White.

Sorry, you may want to add Ebert (2011), Hombsch, Mitchell, Polec and to lesser degrees Sam Gray and Jake Neade. Good depth players that have copped long term injuries include Stevenson and Heath. Another one to watch out for is Mason Shaw - 20/o, 197 cms and 97 kgs, just starting to make his mark in the SANFL.
Just saying.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Posting an updated version of this, not to stir the pot, but to point out that there is a problem in regards to drafting and development somewhere, or several somewheres, in our system.

I'm not saying that other teams pick a winner every time, or even half the time. What the teams in the top eight have over us is 4-6 more players in their starting 22 from early round draft picks over the past decade. These guys are anchors on the field: they're consistent, and they're good, and they lift the rookie picks and VFL standard guys around them. When they're missing, as they are with us, then too much pressure gets applied to the little guys and they get found out.

We have to find out where we're going wrong.

2004: Russell, Hartlett, Blackwell
2005: Murphy, Kennedy, Bower, Edwards
2006: Gibbs, Hampson, Grigg, Austin
2007: Kruezer, Judd, Browne, Armfield
2008: Yarran, Warnock, Robinson
2009: Henderson, McLean, Lucas, Davies
2010: Watson, McCarthy, Mitchell
2011: Bootsma, Rowe, Buckley
2012 onwards: too early to tell

Bold = match winners.
Yarran doesn't win matches regularly off his own boot and Kreuzer is crueled by injury. Buckley looks the goods for now.
Green = borderline foot soldiers, one-dimensional, would struggle to get a game in a lot of teams' starting 22s. Rowe's off the chopping block for now, great coaching from Mick to rescue a guy I thought was finished.
Blue = going.
Red = gone.

Like I said above, if only our recruiting had been half as good over the last four years as Port's has been in the last two.

 

[etsal1]

Sorry, you may want to add Ebert, Hombsch, Mitchell, Polec and to lesser degrees Sam Gray and Jake Neade. Good depth players that have copped long term injuries include Stevenson and Heath. Another one to watch out for is Mason Shaw - 20/o, 197 cms and 97 kgs, just starting to make his mark in the SANFL.
Just saying.

Ebert was recruited end of 2011.

Mitchell, Gray & Neade are all fringe players.

I'm just saying Port's success isn't off the back of the 2012 & 2013 off-seasons.

 

[etsal1]

Like I said above, if only our recruiting had been half as good over the last four years as Port's has been in the last two.

So Boak, Harlett, Ebert, Lobbe, Trengrove, Wingard etc etc are not as influential to Port's success as Wines, Impey, Monfries & White?

Port's success is due to years of good drafting & stock piling of talent. Not just 2 years.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Ebert was recruited end of 2011.

Mitchell, Gray & Neade are all fringe players.

I'm just saying Port's success isn't off the back of the 2012 & 2013 off-seasons.

yep noted !

Not saying Port's success is solely off the back of the last two years but it has been a big part of it. Hinkley recruited players to suit his gameplan. They identified needs and went for the players they saw as best fit.
Agree Neade is a fringe player at this stage; Gray in his first season seems to go OK and Mitchell has played about six games this year after a solid 2013.
If you take out Wines, Impey, Monfries, White, Hombsch and Polec, Port would be sitting a fair few rungs lower on the ladder.

 

[chipzac]

Now that Rodgers has signed for three years, I just hope he's the man who can take us forward.
I'm still not sure whether he can get the job done.

 

[etsal1]

Probably caused Rodgers isn't a real person

 

[Silvagnis]

Posting an updated version of this, not to stir the pot, but to point out that there is a problem in regards to drafting and development somewhere, or several somewheres, in our system.

I'm not saying that other teams pick a winner every time, or even half the time. What the teams in the top eight have over us is 4-6 more players in their starting 22 from early round draft picks over the past decade. These guys are anchors on the field: they're consistent, and they're good, and they lift the rookie picks and VFL standard guys around them. When they're missing, as they are with us, then too much pressure gets applied to the little guys and they get found out.

We have to find out where we're going wrong.

2004: Russell, Hartlett, Blackwell
2005: Murphy, Kennedy, Bower, Edwards
2006: Gibbs, Hampson, Grigg, Austin
2007: Kruezer, Judd, Browne, Armfield
2008: Yarran, Warnock, Robinson
2009: Henderson, McLean, Lucas, Davies
2010: Watson, McCarthy, Mitchell
2011: Bootsma, Rowe, Buckley
2012 onwards: too early to tell

Bold = match winners.
Yarran doesn't win matches regularly off his own boot and Kreuzer is crueled by injury. Buckley looks the goods for now.
Green = borderline foot soldiers, one-dimensional, would struggle to get a game in a lot of teams' starting 22s. Rowe's off the chopping block for now, great coaching from Mick to rescue a guy I thought was finished.
Blue = going.
Red = gone.

I did this for Hine. There was just as much red, green, grey and black as Carlton. Would be more if he had picked Hampson who he rated after N.Brown.

Wells had more wins after trading into the second round of the 2009 and 2011 drafts. Lost Ablett for Smedts and Caddy.

I guess every recruiter can look foolish in hindsight.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

I did this for Hine. There was just as much red, green, grey and black as Carlton. Would be more if he had picked Hampson who he rated after N.Brown.

Wells had more wins after trading into the second round of the 2009 and 2011 drafts. Lost Ablett for Smedts and Caddy.

I guess every recruiter can look foolish in hindsight.

Except for the fact that Hine has a flag to his name and seems to br managing another rebuild pretty well.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

The club have options with free agency and trades.

They have the opportunity to restructure a forward line Casboult and Henderson and, hopefully, Kreuzer.

Johnson is set to debut any week now as a medium forward.

Carlton survived the loss of Fevola; they will survive the loss of Waite.

We even finished in the finals. Such over achievers we are.

 

[mikeythemoocow]

I did this for Hine. There was just as much red, green, grey and black as Carlton

Wells had more wins after trading into the second round of the 2009 and 2011 drafts. Lost Ablett for Smedts and Caddy.

I guess every recruiter can look foolish in hindsight.

Are you actually saying our recruiting hasn't been a complete cluster **** to at least 2010?
That our recruiting is in any case even close to Collingwood or Geelongs?

We have over the last 10 years probably been the worst in the comp. Us or Richmond.

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

Not necessarily recruiting, though. Development as well.

But the glaring problem is the lack of quality key forwards, and has been since Fev got pink slipped. Was masked for some time by Walker, Garlett and Betts. Casboult isn't the right answer, and either is Kruezer.

We break down across half forward with monotonous regularity: 5th in clearances but only 12th in i50s, scoring five less goals a game than Hawthorn and four than Port. With the oncoming retirement of supposedly big ticket players, we have to throw the sink at an out-of-contract and young blue chip forward, because we sure as hell don't seem to be able to draft one.

 

[thylacine60]

I did this for Hine. There was just as much red, green, grey and black as Carlton. Would be more if he had picked Hampson who he rated after N.Brown.

Wells had more wins after trading into the second round of the 2009 and 2011 drafts. Lost Ablett for Smedts and Caddy.

I guess every recruiter can look foolish in Hinesight.

Who saw what I did there?

 

[LordLucifer]

Who saw what I did there?

In the words of Bwuce MacAveney .... "clever".

 

[gbatman]

What are you worried about replacing here Gbat ??

- his 14 games per annum
- his 13 goal haul so far this season
- his career average of 1.3 goals per match
- his regular undisciplined acts

Or are you just focussing on the two blinders he plays every season ??

He gives a target, takes pressure off others who should but aren't doing better. Don't want to see us going into 2015 with casboult and henderson as our two key forwards and no one in the VFL for when they get injured. We aught to do what we did with Scotland with Waite and Rookie him. I just don't think we can afford to go cutting talls for the sake of cutting older players.

 

[etsal1]

He gives a target, takes pressure off others who should but aren't doing better. Don't want to see us going into 2015 with casboult and henderson as our two key forwards and no one in the VFL for when they get injured. We aught to do what we did with Scotland with Waite and Rookie him. I just don't think we can afford to go cutting talls for the sake of cutting older players.

I think whether Waite stays it not will depend on how many kpfs we recruit in the offseason from drafting and trading.

 

[gbatman]

I think whether Waite stays it not will depend on how many kpfs we recruit in the offseason from drafting and trading.

Yeah that's it, I mean Waite should retire but I don't think we can afford him to. You don't develop a team by playing kids in a basket case side that runs out missing certain types like key forwards etc. That's how Melbourne tried to do it and they've been down the bottom for a decade. He wouldn't be clogging the list, we have plenty of other to offload in the meantime. This is the same reason why we probably can't offload Watson, then we'd really have no reserve talls.

If we can replace him then good. I don't know if we'll go to the draft and pick a young tall and play him in the ones from the get go though, this is not the usual method for developing tall forwards. If we can get a trade and bring in a young tall forward then I'd be ok with Waite retiring.

You don't go all out destruction on your list for the sake of rebuilding. You still need to maintain a list that can still field a structured side with plenty ok experience and one which doesn't have to go without.

This season, we just can't get enough draft picks.

 

[athensblue]

Keep Waite

Pay him 5k per game and 2k per goal, will be cheap

was a big fan, what a waste

 

[MC_Doggy_Frog18]

Menzel will be in a Carlton Premiership