The Unofficial List Management thread... :-)

[William Wonka]

I love Birch, but even I would struggle to classify him as elite. Absolutely a crucial player for us next year though.

Four time premiship winning spud?

 

[tige19]

I'd suggest:
- Rough is no worse than Riewoldt
- Tom Mitchell is around Cotchin
- O'Meara will be elite again if he can get his knee right, but he's no Dusty
- We don't have anyone anywhere near Rance, but Gunston's elite and Burton is defiitely heading that way...

Similarely, I think our bottom six are better than Richmond's...

I agree for the most part, actually think Tom is better than Cotchin, Ruff better than Riewoldt but Jags can't even be spoken about in the same sentence as Dusty. Hopefully this time next year it's a different story, on Gunno though I certainly consider him a very good player but a clear peg below elite players.

I'd say our absolute elite when fit are -

Elite -
Mitchell
Rioli
Roughead

Very good -
Birch
O'mera
Gunston
Bruest
Burton
Smith
Burgoyne

Good -
McEvoy
Sicily (can make the jump to elite)
Pop
Hardwick (similar to Sicily)

Average -
Frawley
Stratton (injuries hurt him)
Henderson
Brand (can make the jump)
Shiels
Howe (can make the jump)
Ceglar

Below average -
Obrien
Schoey
Langford
Whitecross
Duryea
Heatherley

Not AFL standard -
Willsmore
Miles

To hard to judge -
Glass
Cousins
Hanrahan
Lovell
Orourke
Morrison
Nash
Pittonet
Lewis

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Four time premiship winning spud?

Did I say he was a spud? There's varying levels of talent between spud and elite talent. Not every one of our players who played in that era was elite. I think Birchall is an excellent player - but as it stands now I wouldn't classify him as elite in the competition overall (which is the conversation being had here).

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I agree for the most part, actually think Tom is better than Cotchin, Ruff better than Riewoldt but Jags can't even be spoken about in the same sentence as Dusty. Hopefully this time next year it's a different story, on Gunno though I certainly consider him a very good player but a clear peg below elite players.

I'd say our absolute elite when fit are -

Elite -
Mitchell
Rioli
Roughead

Very good -
Birch
O'mera
Gunston
Bruest
Burton
Smith
Burgoyne

Good -
McEvoy
Sicily (can make the jump to elite)
Pop
Hardwick (similar to Sicily)

Average -
Frawley
Stratton (injuries hurt him)
Henderson
Brand (can make the jump)
Shiels
Howe (can make the jump)
Ceglar

Below average -
Obrien
Schoey
Langford
Whitecross
Duryea
Heatherley

Not AFL standard -
Willsmore
Miles

To hard to judge -
Glass
Cousins
Hanrahan
Lovell
Orourke
Morrison
Nash
Pittonet
Lewis

Good summary - but based on 2017 form I'd be happy to upgrade McEvoy to very good. I think Stratton is in the good range also - had an excellent 2016 before his pectoral injury.

 

[William Wonka]

Did I say he was a spud? There's varying levels of talent between spud and elite talent. Not every one of our players who played in that era was elite. I think Birchall is an excellent player - but as it stands now I wouldn't classify him as elite in the competition overall (which is the conversation being had here).

How many better rebounding defenders can you name?

 

[tige19]

How many better rebounding defenders can you name?

Birch isn't elite, probably just shy of that status. Elite is the very best of the comp, position is irrelevant, I'd actually say there is very few elite rebounding defenders. JJ at his best is, Laird when he plays defence is probably elite but to be honest there's not a lot.

 

[MasterSamurai]

As a creative hbf Birchall is definitely elite. When hbf types get drafted, they are running, long kicking, smart attacking line breakers which Birch is the quintessential type in his position.
Rioli, Roughead, Mitchell are elite plus we have plenty of A- to B+ performers like Gunston, Burgoyne, Burton, Sicily, Frawley, Smith and add Jom to that list.
Stratts, Shiels, Breust, Poppy are better than just average players. Just a poor 2017 through injury or poor form doesn't discount everything that came before it.
My worry isn't our best 22 , it's the lack of good depth.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Birch isn't elite, probably just shy of that status. Elite is the very best of the comp, position is irrelevant, I'd actually say there is very few elite rebounding defenders. JJ at his best is, Laird when he plays defence is probably elite but to be honest there's not a lot.

If u reckon jj is and laird is then birchall was. He was the premier half back flanker in the league

 

[MasterSamurai]

Birch isn't elite, probably just shy of that status. Elite is the very best of the comp, position is irrelevant, I'd actually say there is very few elite rebounding defenders. JJ at his best is, Laird when he plays defence is probably elite but to be honest there's not a lot.

You overate opposition more than Hawk supporters overate Hawthorn players.
Jj and Laird are very good players but haven't caught up to Birchalls output even with a wipe out 2017.

 

[Rioli magic]

Elite is the very best of the comp, position is irrelevant, I'd actually say there is very few elite rebounding defenders. JJ at his best is...

Jason Johannisen is one of the elite players of the comp, all positions?

Surely you don't actually believe that? That's a ridiculous call.

 

[seysearles]

I'd prefer we concentrate on being successful than dishing out charity.

Fair enough but the same philosophy should apply to Willsmore also in that case. By just about any measure he is a bigger list clogger than Hartung. If he gets rookied then im genuinely at a loss.

 

[HawkMongrel]

Birch isn't elite, probably just shy of that status. Elite is the very best of the comp, position is irrelevant, I'd actually say there is very few elite rebounding defenders. JJ at his best is, Laird when he plays defence is probably elite but to be honest there's not a lot.

You're having a laugh.

And I haven't even got to the part about Johanisen yet.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

You overate opposition more than Hawk supporters overate Hawthorn players.
Jj and Laird are very good players but haven't caught up to Birchalls output even with a wipe out 2017.

Rory Laird is a consistent beast and has been for 3 years, he is the best half back flanker in the league IMO.

 

[tige19]

You overate opposition more than Hawk supporters overate Hawthorn players.
Jj and Laird are very good players but haven't caught up to Birchalls output even with a wipe out 2017.

I said JJ at his best, which he was in 16, 17 was down but as I said there isn't really a stand out half back. Laird is absolutely elite in every sense, surely you can't deny that? All australian this year, putting up ridiculous numbers. I think Birch has been AA once 5-6 years ago?

Like I said there's not many rebounding defenders in the elite bracket, hard to make a case for them.

 

[tige19]

You're having a laugh.

And I haven't even got to the part about Johanisen yet.

I said at his best you peanut, I also said it's hard to make a case for any rebounding defender.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

I said JJ at his best, which he was in 16, 17 was down but as I said there isn't really a stand out half back. Laird is absolutely elite in every sense, surely you can't deny that? All australian this year, putting up ridiculous numbers. I think Birch has been AA once 5-6 years ago?

Like I said there's not many rebounding defenders in the elite bracket, hard to make a case for them.

Yeah he has only been AA in 2012, but lets be serious if Birch was a Geelong player with the same level of output he'd have been AA probably 3 or 4 times.

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

I said at his best you peanut, I also said it's hard to make a case for any rebounding defender.

I think it is hard to make a case for most players classed as rebounding defenders, I think the word defender is the sticking point for most. A lot of players labeled rebounding defenders actually do little defending, players like JJ for mine are the players that you look for to for run and carry from the back line, reload and hence rebound, JJ has been the best at this for the last couple of seasons and has been evidenced by the time and effort put into him early this past season from opposition lockdown forwards.
I think that there should be for the most part three category's for rebounding from the backline, those that are positioned or named in defence but are really there to provide run and carry, this I see as mainly the domain at the moment of JJ, then there are the players that provide rebound, that can provide some run and carry whilst also having the ability to win one on one contest (defend), Burton, Heath Shaw at his best and Dane Rampe. The next level of player that is looked at for run from defence and the tactic used by most teams due to available personnel is the two way running midfielder, the first one that comes to mind would be Tom Scully.
So for mine I feel the sicking point when discussing a player such as JJ for crossover old timers like me is the label defender, I just don't think he would win enough pure one on one contest a bit like Suckling but with ball in hand his run from the backline is elite. I do also understand that if you are named or start in the backline that you are entitled to be labeled a defender even if it isn't strictly the role you play.

 

[William Wonka]

I think Birch has been AA once 5-6 years ago?

3x AA nomination.

 

[TheFourPillars]

3x AA nomination.

Are u going by aa? If so sam mitchell spudded that up

Edit not really replying to u but t19

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Birch isn't elite, probably just shy of that status. Elite is the very best of the comp, position is irrelevant, I'd actually say there is very few elite rebounding defenders. JJ at his best is, Laird when he plays defence is probably elite but to be honest there's not a lot.

Birchall's best was better than JJs...

• 4× AFL premiership player (2008, 2013, 2014, 2015)
• All-Australian (2012)
• AFL Rising Star nominee (2006)
• Harrison Medal (2005)
• Tasmanian Football Hall of Fame

 

[tige19]

3x AA nomination.

Yup, so a 1 x AA... Which is no mean feet, Birch is a super player but I still don't think he is elite.

 

[tige19]

I think it is hard to make a case for most players classed as rebounding defenders, I think the word defender is the sticking point for most. A lot of players labeled rebounding defenders actually do little defending, players like JJ for mine are the players that you look for to for run and carry from the back line, reload and hence rebound, JJ has been the best at this for the last couple of seasons and has been evidenced by the time and effort put into him early this past season from opposition lockdown forwards.
I think that there should be for the most part three category's for rebounding from the backline, those that are positioned or named in defence but are really there to provide run and carry, this I see as mainly the domain at the moment of JJ, then there are the players that provide rebound, that can provide some run and carry whilst also having the ability to win one on one contest (defend), Burton, Heath Shaw at his best and Dane Rampe. The next level of player that is looked at for run from defence and the tactic used by most teams due to available personnel is the two way running midfielder, the first one that comes to mind would be Tom Scully.
So for mine I feel the sicking point when discussing a player such as JJ for crossover old timers like me is the label defender, I just don't think he would win enough pure one on one contest a bit like Suckling but with ball in hand his run from the backline is elite. I do also understand that if you are named or start in the backline that you are entitled to be labeled a defender even if it isn't strictly the role you play.

Agree bumps, it's really hard to classify the utility type of defenders. The Key defenders are considered more valuable aren't they? The rebounding/attacking defender role is a brilliant role to play, it's probably the easiest position on the ground but I actually think Birch does a lot of 1v1 defending as well, he can certainly hold his own. I do have 1 criticism of him which I believe has held him back, decision making under pressure can result in some silly/costly turnovers.

Overall I probably wouldn't swap him for many in the comp for his position.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Yup, so a 1 x AA... Which is no mean feet, Birch is a super player but I still don't think he is elite.

I think he was elite in the 2012-2015 period.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

We are seriously going to have to try and overturn 8-10 players at the end of 2018, lots of dead weight nothing players currently on our list.

 

[Bardo State]

We are seriously going to have to try and overturn 8-10 players at the end of 2018, lots of dead weight nothing players currently on our list.

I guess the question is how many players can realistically be turned over before the kids you're replacing them with start becoming too speculative. Is it worth culling 8-10 players if you have to fill your list with 4-5 players drafted at 70+?