F1 The Wash Up - Previous 2024 Race Weekends

[Jatz]

Thoughts on Checo's race?

He started on the front row and finished 8th (7th after the Russell DQ), 43 seconds behind the winner. On the face of it, that's not good. However...

It appears that the Red Bull was a great car in the wet, or at least the semi-wet conditions they had for qualifying. The car wasn't anywhere near as dominant in the dry race conditions. Even Max could only work his way up to 5th (4th after the DQ), 9 seconds behind the winner. With McLaren, Mercedes & Ferrari all having both drivers finish (OK, Russell was DQ'ed), this really is as good as it gets for him, given the relative talent levels of the respective drivers.

Is it enough to save him? Almost certainly not. Is it the best he could have done? Pretty much, yes.

Terrible. Went backwards from the first lap.

Don't think it's "the best he could've done" at all. You can blame the car all you like, I don't genuinely believe the car is that slow that it'd go from 2nd to 8th (7th).

Sorry Checo, you're ability to drive has fallen off a cliff. Should be moved on instantly.

 

[ptrg]

Vader
I mean Russell won solely because of that strategy

 

[ptrg]

Terrible. Went backwards from the first lap.

Don't think it's "the best he could've done" at all. You can blame the car all you like, I don't genuinely believe the car is that slow that it'd go from 2nd to 8th (7th).

Sorry Checo, you're ability to drive has fallen off a cliff. Should be moved on instantly.

Zero chance he's there next year now

 

[Vader]

Terrible. Went backwards from the first lap.

Don't think it's "the best he could've done" at all. You can blame the car all you like, I don't genuinely believe the car is that slow that it'd go from 2nd to 8th (7th).

Sorry Checo, you're ability to drive has fallen off a cliff. Should be moved on instantly.

I said it's the best Checo is capable of doing in that car. Given a car that is now only level with the others, and his lack of talent compared to the drivers in the other teams, this is as good as it gets for him. Anyone expecting more than this from him has unrealistic expectations.

The question is whether or not Red Bull are satisfied with this level of performance, given that it's his "ceiling". I think not... but at least he didn't crash out in Q1 like he has in the recent past. Yes, that's setting a very low bar, but one he's failed to clear on multiple occasions in the recent past.

 

[Jatz]

Gifted in the sense that George deserved to win, but was robbed by a late change in team strategy (one stop - so unexpected wear on his hard tyres) and a quirk of the track (no parade lap for picking up marbles after the chequered flag).

Lewis deserves full credit for driving his car to 2nd place, and being first in line when Russell was DQ'ed. But at the end of the day, he wasn't the first car across the line, so yes, it was gifted to him.

Completely disagree. George was in front in a car that wasn't compliant. George didn't deserve to win.

It sucks for George but if you get around in a car that's not compliant, you don't deserve anything. Win as a team, lose as a team.

By the way, Mercedes knew that quirk of the track regarding the marbles - it's not like they were caught out there. As Horner said, they've miscalculated badly.

 

[Vader]

Completely disagree. George was in front in a car that wasn't compliant. George didn't deserve to win.

George's car would have been compliant if:

• They didn't swap to a one-stop strategy, thereby increasing the amount of rubber lost from his own tyres.
• He was racing at a track other than Spa, where there's no formation lap, and thus no ability to collect marbles on the parade lap.

It sucks for George but if you get around in a car that's not compliant, you don't deserve anything. Win as a team, lose as a team.

I feel that George deserved the win, but Mercedes did not. I know it's impossible to separate the two in the real world.

By the way, Mercedes knew that quirk of the track regarding the marbles - it's not like they were caught out there. As Horner said, they've miscalculated badly.

That's fair. I suspect they were also caught out by his change to a one-stop strategy, which increased the wear on his 2nd set of tyres, to the point that he went under the minimum weight. That's something they weren't planning on at the start of the race. However, it's also something they should have been aware of, and taken into consideration.

 

[Jatz]

I said it's the best Checo is capable of doing in that car. Given a car that is now only level with the others, and his lack of talent compared to the drivers in the other teams, this is as good as it gets for him. Anyone expecting more than this from him has unrealistic expectations.

The question is whether or not Red Bull are satisfied with this level of performance, given that it's his "ceiling".

It's clearly a Checo problem but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your second driver not to take the car backwards 5/6 spots. Especially when we saw how hard it was to pass in a DRS train (Max/Lando etc). The Red Bull doesn't have the advantage it did but it's also not Aston Martin slow. He should've been able to do better from that position, even withstanding his current form.

Hard to see how they would be satisfied. Max extended his drivers championship lead but the constructors is now down to 40 odd and will close with every race. They won't win it unless they make a change now (and even then, I still think they won't win it).

 

[Jatz]

George's car would have been compliant if:

• They didn't swap to a one-stop strategy, thereby increasing the amount of rubber lost from his own tyres.
• He was racing at a track other than Spa, where there's no formation lap, and thus no ability to collect marbles on the parade lap.

I feel that George deserved the win, but Mercedes did not. I know it's impossible to separate the two in the real world.

That's fair. I suspect they were also caught out by his change to a one-stop strategy, which increased the wear on his 2nd set of tyres, to the point that he went under the minimum weight. That's something they weren't planning on at the start of the race. However, it's also something they should have been aware of, and taken into consideration.

I agree that George drove a hell of a race but he would've been quicker due to the car weighing less. Had it had the extra 1.5kg required, who's to say whether he'd have been able to stay in first. These margins come down to very little and 1.5kg is a decent whack under.

Mercedes should never have been 'caught out' under any of those situations. They were calculated decisions made under next to no duress (safety car at a bad time etc). They just ****ed it up themselves.

This is all arguing semantics of course, I just think it's silly to say Lewis was 'gifted' a win. He deserved it. Wouldn't even be top 10 in all his race wins that have been 'gifted' to him.

 

[FR0GGY]

Yeah this is the big issue I think.

Had George done a cool down lap, he could've picked up the marbles. Was talking to my boss who's worked in motorsport his whole life, he said you'd be surprised how much the marbles weigh. Needed 400g per tyre essentially.

Not only that he’s got the extra deg from another stint.
Wouldn’t take much to be 1.5kg all up difference with no marbles. (Although I’m assuming it’s standard for spa to come straight in due to the track length)

 

[FR0GGY]

George's car would have been compliant if:

• They didn't swap to a one-stop strategy, thereby increasing the amount of rubber lost from his own tyres.
• He was racing at a track other than Spa, where there's no formation lap, and thus no ability to collect marbles on the parade lap.

No one else picked up marbles though either, so either the extra deg from the stint was the difference or his car was running lighter?

 

[my name was taken]

Thoughts on Checo's race?

He started on the front row and finished 8th (7th after the Russell DQ), 43 seconds behind the winner. On the face of it, that's not good. However...

His race as a whole would be very disappointing to red bull however 43 seconds behind the leader is misleading. He pit again later for fastest lap which he did end up getting so about 20 behind

 

[Vader]

It's clearly a Checo problem but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your second driver not to take the car backwards 5/6 spots. Especially when we saw how hard it was to pass in a DRS train (Max/Lando etc). The Red Bull doesn't have the advantage it did but it's also not Aston Martin slow. He should've been able to do better from that position, even withstanding his current form.

It's not slow, but it's not faster than the other cars around it - and the other cars in the DRS train were equally fast. He wasn't in a DRS train with a VCARB, Williams, Aston Martin, Alpine or Haas car. He was in a DRS train with Ferrari, McLaren and the other Red Bull.

As for whether or not he "should've been able to do better" - I honestly don't think he could have done any better, given that the other manufacturers have achieved car parity, and his talent deficit compared to the drivers in the other teams. His performance at Spa wasn't about "form", it was about his lack of talent.

Hard to see how they would be satisfied. Max extended his drivers championship lead but the constructors is now down to 40 odd and will close with every race. They won't win it unless they make a change now (and even then, I still think they won't win it).

I concur.

 

[Vader]

No one else picked up marbles though either, so either the extra deg from the stint was the difference or his car was running lighter?

Agreed. It's pretty much inconceivable that the two Mercedes cars started the race at different weights. Neither got to pick up marbles after the race. The only variable is the amount of weight they lost due to tyre degradation - with George's tyres having done twice as many laps, and thus having lost more rubber than anyone else's.

They obviously weren't planning on one-stopping him at the start of the race, but they shouldn't have started the car so close to minimum that it came in underweight as a result of extra tyre degradation from changing strategy mid-race.

 

[Vader]

I agree that George drove a hell of a race but he would've been quicker due to the car weighing less. Had it had the extra 1.5kg required, who's to say whether he'd have been able to stay in first. These margins come down to very little and 1.5kg is a decent whack under.

I doubt 1.5 kg made him that much faster, particularly considering it's almost entirely due to increased tyre degradation from one-stopping - the result of which was significantly slower lap times towards the end of the race.

Mercedes should never have been 'caught out' under any of those situations. They were calculated decisions made under next to no duress (safety car at a bad time etc). They just ****ed it up themselves.

Agreed - the team ****ed up. They should have started the car heavy enough that it wouldn't come in underweight due to extra tyre deg, in the event of switching to a one-stop strategy.

George did nothing wrong, which is why I feel sorry for him, but not the team.

 

[Jatz]

Agreed. It's pretty much inconceivable that the two Mercedes cars started the race at different weights. Neither got to pick up marbles after the race. The only variable is the amount of weight they lost due to tyre degradation - with George's tyres having done twice as many laps, and thus having lost more rubber than anyone else's.

They obviously weren't planning on one-stopping him at the start of the race, but they shouldn't have started the car so close to minimum that it came in underweight as a result of extra tyre degradation from changing strategy mid-race.

Horner did comment that he wasn't surprised, they'd done a long stint in practice on Friday and had noticed how much rubber they'd lost.

 

[Vader]

His race as a whole would be very disappointing to red bull however 43 seconds behind the leader is misleading. He pit again later for fastest lap which he did end up getting so about 20 behind

I wondered if that might have been the case. I don't remember seeing him pit, or hearing them mention it, but it would explain why the gap between himself & Sainz was so large.

 

[my name was taken]

Well looks like piastri was lucky to pit again.

It would have been hilarious if Piastri passed Hamilton because he was held up by George.

 

[FR0GGY]

I doubt 1.5 kg made him that much faster, particularly considering it's almost entirely due to increased tyre degradation from one-stopping - the result of which was significantly slower lap times towards the end of the race.

Agreed - the team ****ed up. They should have started the car heavy enough that it wouldn't come in underweight due to extra tyre deg, in the event of switching to a one-stop strategy.

George did nothing wrong, which is why I feel sorry for him, but not the team.

Not just 1.5kg it’s 1.5kg rotation mass (not idea how much it would help though)

 

[Festerz]

Sucks for George, that really was a gutsy strategy call. But well done Oscar.

And classy stuff from the Germans.

 

[Vader]

Not just 1.5kg it’s 1.5kg rotation mass (not idea how much it would help though)

Yes, the tyres weighed 1.5kg less, and yes it's a "rotation mass" effect. But they also had a lot less grip, resulting in slower overall lap times. The lack of grip more than compensated for the lower rotating mass.

 

[Festerz]

Speaking of strategy calls - Danny Ric suffered again from a bad one from his team putting him on softs at the start.

I suppose their thinking was that there's often a safety car in the opening laps at Spa and using a counter tyre strategy had a fair chance of giving some positions in that first stint. But no safety car and so he loses out.

An example of what happens when a gutsy strategy goes wrong.

 

[FR0GGY]

Yes, the tyres weighed 1.5kg less, and yes it's a "rotation mass" effect. But they also had a lot less grip, resulting in slower overall lap times. The lack of grip more than compensated for the lower rotating mass.

More saying 1.5kg in Tyres is different to 1.5kg in chassis weight

 

[Festerz]

chickenshit effort by McLaren/Piastri not gambling with one stop strategy. Lost that

Speaking of chickenshit.

Can you imagine the uproar in here and elsewhere if they did just that and it failed? Reckon you'd be in here going batshit (which is an even lower quality of manure I'm told).

And the tyre strategy call for George was made by George - which is impt.

If you listed at all to what Stella said after last week's race about 'the team', McLaren as a team is rocketing up the charts as a credible championship contender because they view the championship through a season perspective. Of making tactical decisions for each race that are based on the evidence they have available at the time, rather than taking risky gambles that will put one of their drivers at a severe disadvantage if it goes wrong.

McLaren have two highly talented very young drivers who are both potential F1 champions and who are critical to the team's future success. They have an eye on the end game with both the drivers in their garage, which is a bit different to where Mercedes is atm. No way Stella jeopardises that by using one of them as a guinea pig for a risky gamble UNLESS it is done in plain sight with the agreement of the driver involved.

In the end it didn't matter a toss.

 

[Vader]

More saying 1.5kg in Tyres is different to 1.5kg in chassis weight

I understood what you're saying.

I'm saying that the 1.5 kg in tyre mass, accepting that it's more significant than 1.5 kg of chassis mass, was still more than compensated for by the loss of tyre grip due to the extra degradation.

 

[Bedi]

Speaking of chickenshit.

Can you imagine the uproar in here and elsewhere if they did just that and it failed? Reckon you'd be in here going batshit (which is an even lower quality of manure I'm told).

In the end it didn't matter a toss.

Much, much prefer to see him go for the win than 'fail'. Don't reckon many here would begrudge them rolling the dice. i called it at the time i wanted him to stay out. Post race Karun said the exact same thing that it cost him the win.