F1 The Wash Up - Previous 2024 Race Weekends

[Neale4brownlow]

What else could account for it? There's no way the two Mercedes cars started at different weights, yet Hamilton's came in over the limit and George was under. The only difference was the amount of tyre deg on their respective cars.

I'm open to suggestions as to other possible causes, but this is the only theory which has made sense so far.

No idea. Not all drivers weigh the same. Individual drivers weights may fluctuate through the year too but the car weight stays the same.
Are they adding weights somewhere to the car to hit the final total?

It's probably a final check-in every race day to make sure car + driver hits the correct weight and if it's under's then top it up (however they might do that).

Clearly they cut it too close this race. Drivers can lose multiple kilos in water weight in a race. So 1.5kg could be from Russell's perspiration alone.

 

[Neale4brownlow]

Here's a good article, explaining how the weight ruling works:
https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/e...hat-cost-russell-belgian-gp-victory/10640014/


Presumably the 2nd part of the rule is applied when a car finishes on 3 tyres (e.g. Hamilton at Silverstone, when his tyre blew out on the last lap).

Note: The article discusses the rule, and the lengths they went to when weighing the car. It doesn't explain why the car was underweight in the first place.

If that's seriously all it came down to they probably need to tweak the rule.

I.e if they put Hamilton's set onto Russell's car and re-weighed it would he have passed? If the answer was yes then the rule probably needs a tweak. Bizzare to be non-compliant just by running a tyre longer than others. Some would be non-compliant during a race but then finish it compliant just by having a fresher set on at the end.

 

[Jatz]

It’s always been like that.

Oh I know, it just seems ridiculous. They add to it on a lap that's not actually part of the race.

 

[Iceman!]

Overall it was a fun race and was interesting right to the line. Such a for George who drove a great race but stoked to see Lewis get another win!

Oscar racking up more podiums and Daniel in the points! Overall a great race to lead in to the break.

 

[Vader]

No idea. Not all drivers weigh the same. Individual drivers weights may fluctuate through the year too but the car weight stays the same.
Are they adding weights somewhere to the car to hit the final total?

It's the mass of the car, not the mass of the driver, which has caused them problems here. The drivers do get weighed at the end of each race, so presumably there's a second weight rule as well - but that one hasn't been broken.

Yes, they can add weights to the bottom of a car to bring it up to standard - but it needs to be at the minimum weight during at all times during competition (i.e. qualifying & race - not free practice).

 

[Vader]

If that's seriously all it came down to they probably need to tweak the rule.

I.e if they put Hamilton's set onto Russell's car and re-weighed it would he have passed? If the answer was yes then the rule probably needs a tweak. Bizzare to be non-compliant just by running a tyre longer than others. Some would be non-compliant during a race but then finish it compliant just by having a fresher set on at the end.

That's why they normally drive over the marbles at the end, to add weight to the tyres, to make sure they finish above the minimum car weight.

Russell finished with 4 tyres on the car, so the first part of the rule applies. I'm assuming the car would have passed if it had Hamilton's younger (and less degraded) tyres.

 

[Vader]

Clearly they cut it too close this race. Drivers can lose multiple kilos in water weight in a race. So 1.5kg could be from Russell's perspiration alone.

Drivers can lose multiple kilos through sweat - but it's almost entirely absorbed by their race suits, so the net effect (including both driver & suit) is almost zero.

 

[my name was taken]

Drivers can lose multiple kilos through sweat - but it's almost entirely absorbed by their race suits, so the net effect (including both driver & suit) is almost zero.

No evaporation?

 

[ReidBetweenTheLines]

I’m no fan of Russell but that DQ is ridiculous. If you’ve ever been to an F1 race and walked around the track after a Grand Prix it’s amazing how much rubber is left all over 6km of the circuit. Russell would have easily lost 2 or more kg from those tyres he ran for 36 laps or whatever it was.

A better system would be to weigh the cars at the start of the Grand Prix. Then there’s no issue with how much fuel you have left in the tank or how much tyre deg there is.

For someone that doesn’t get much opportunity for race wins to have it taken off you for being 1/1000 under is a joke. Not surprised though.

 

[Vader]

No evaporation?

Not a lot. The suits are fireproof, and I can't imagine they "breathe" terribly well.

I know Mythbusters did a test, and they weighed the same before & after, having weighed in while wearing their race suits. Not sure if their race suits were the same material used by F1 drivers though.

 

[Not Important]

i wonder whether the loss of a couple of seconds when oscar overshot hitting the jackman cost him dearly.

 

[Vader]

i wonder whether the loss of a couple of seconds when oscar overshot hitting the jackman cost him dearly.

Probably not, at least not in the light of Russell's DQ.

Mercedes left Hamilton behind Russell because they assessed that Piastri wasn't going to get to them in time. If Piastri was 2 second further up the road (i.e. no overshoot), he would have got to them 2 laps earlier. If that was the case, they would have given team orders, getting Hamilton ahead of Russell. Piastri would have got Russell, but not Hamilton. Given that Russell was DQ'ed, and thus finished behind Piastri anyway, it made no difference to the final standings.

However, Piastri's overshoot, taken in combination with the team **** ups, absolutely cost him dearly.

 

[my name was taken]

A better system would be to weigh the cars at the start of the Grand Prix. Then there’s no issue with how much fuel you have left in the tank or how much tyre deg there is.

Before my time but I believe they used to do this, think they stopped due to teams having more water on board and losing a bunch of it in the first few laps.

Just give them fresh tyres not from the teams garage and have them replace and then weigh.

It does seem dumb that the rules currently mean a strategic race decision gives a DQ.

 

[Not Important]

Probably not, at least not in the light of Russell's DQ.

Mercedes left Hamilton behind Russell because they assessed that Piastri wasn't going to get to them in time. If Piastri was 2 second further up the road (i.e. no overshoot), he would have got to them 2 laps earlier. If that was the case, they would have given team orders, getting Hamilton ahead of Russell. Piastri would have got Russell, but not Hamilton. Given that Russell was DQ'ed, and thus finished behind Piastri anyway, it made no difference to the final standings.

However, Piastri's overshoot, taken in combination with the team **** ups, absolutely cost him dearly.

seemed to me norris copped the raw end of the pineapple this time.

 

[Vader]

seemed to me norris copped the raw end of the pineapple this time.

Norris screwed himself - first by qualifying badly (in Q1, Q2 and Q3), then going rally-cross at the first corner. He was pushing shit uphill for the rest of the race. No sympathy, as his problems were all self-inflicted.

 

[happy_eagle]

seemed to me norris copped the raw end of the pineapple this time.

Seems like Norris was already in mid season holiday mode. Was off all weekend

 

[Forward Press]

I’m no fan of Russell but that DQ is ridiculous. If you’ve ever been to an F1 race and walked around the track after a Grand Prix it’s amazing how much rubber is left all over 6km of the circuit. Russell would have easily lost 2 or more kg from those tyres he ran for 36 laps or whatever it was.

A better system would be to weigh the cars at the start of the Grand Prix. Then there’s no issue with how much fuel you have left in the tank or how much tyre deg there is.

For someone that doesn’t get much opportunity for race wins to have it taken off you for being 1/1000 under is a joke. Not surprised though.

Nah, this has to be a DSQ. From what I can tell, the 19 other cars had no problems meeting the minimum weight requirement. Losing a couple of kilos compared to other cars is a big advantage over the course of a race. You want to run a one stop and risk weighing a few kilos less? Put more weight on the car at the start.

Weighing the cars before the race is inherently flawed because then teams will find ways to dump weight during the formation lap, guaranteed.

 

[Vader]

Let's not forget this isn't the first time a car has been DQ'ed as a result of post-race scrutineering.

Vettel lost 2nd place in the 2021 Hungarian GP because he didn't have enough fuel left in the car. Cars are required to provide a sample of at least 1.0 L for scrutineering (presumably to verify that the fuel hasn't been doctored). Vettel's car only had 0.3 L left in the tank, so he was DQ'ed.

Hamilton & LeClerc were both DQ'ed from the 2023 USA GP, after they were ruled to have excessive wear on a wooden plank underneath the car.

 

[Vader]

Nah, this has to be a DSQ. From what I can tell, the 19 other cars had no problems meeting the minimum weight requirement. Losing a couple of kilos compared to other cars is a big advantage over the course of a race. You want to run a one stop and risk weighing a few kilos less? Put more weight on the car at the start.

It would be a significant disadvantage if they'd run the whole race underweight - but that doesn't appear to have been the case with Russell's car.

We're assuming the problem was excessive tyre degradation, due to him running much longer than expected on the 2nd set of tyres. This appears to be the most likely culprit.

If that's the case, then the car only became non-compliant once the tyres wore down to the point where the car went under the minimum weight. Without knowing the exact degradation rates, it's likely that this only happened in the last few laps of the race. I doubt the car was non-compliant for more than 10 laps, probably 5 or less.

As for putting extra weight in the car... they weren't originally planning on doing a one-stopper - that decision was made by George, in the middle of the race. The commentators spent the first half of the race telling us how bad the tyre degradation was at Spa, only to be surprised by the tyre longevity which teams experienced during the race (presumably as a result of the track's re-surfacing).

I suspect they hadn't planned, or simulated, a one-stop strategy, because of how bad they expected the tyre degradation to be. Then when it turned out to be less, and George opted to stay out, they hadn't considered the implications for tyre weight/life.

Mercedes weren't the only team pleasantly surprised by the tyre life. Remember the call to Lando, stating that the tyres were "very robust"? That spoke volumes to me about what they experienced, compared with what they were expecting (and planned for).

Weighing the cars before the race is inherently flawed because then teams will find ways to dump weight during the formation lap, guaranteed.

Which is why weighing them before the race was abandoned in the past.

 

[largebus]

Let's not forget this isn't the first time a car has been DQ'ed as a result of post-race scrutineering.

Vettel lost 2nd place in the 2021 Hungarian GP because he didn't have enough fuel left in the car. Cars are required to provide a sample of at least 1.0 L for scrutineering (presumably to verify that the fuel hasn't been doctored). Vettel's car only had 0.3 L left in the tank, so he was DQ'ed.

Hamilton & LeClerc were both DQ'ed from the 2023 USA GP, after they were ruled to have excessive wear on a wooden plank underneath the car.

Ironically you heard Merc talk to Lewis about lifting and coasting early on to ensure enough leftover fuel, and it was the weight issue that they totally forgot about.

 

[Forward Press]

Let's not forget this isn't the first time a car has been DQ'ed as a result of post-race scrutineering.

Vettel lost 2nd place in the 2021 Hungarian GP because he didn't have enough fuel left in the car. Cars are required to provide a sample of at least 1.0 L for scrutineering (presumably to verify that the fuel hasn't been doctored). Vettel's car only had 0.3 L left in the tank, so he was DQ'ed.

Hamilton & LeClerc were both DQ'ed from the 2023 USA GP, after they were ruled to have excessive wear on a wooden plank underneath the car.

Famously, Ricciardo was DQ'ed from his first Australian GP for Red Bull from 2nd place because of a fuel pump that exceeded flow rates (or something similar).

Hamilton DQ'ed in 2021 from qualifying because of a wing that opened up too much during DRS. Think there are plenty more out there that have slipped my mind.

 

[ReidBetweenTheLines]

Nah, this has to be a DSQ. From what I can tell, the 19 other cars had no problems meeting the minimum weight requirement. Losing a couple of kilos compared to other cars is a big advantage over the course of a race. You want to run a one stop and risk weighing a few kilos less? Put more weight on the car at the start.

Weighing the cars before the race is inherently flawed because then teams will find ways to dump weight during the formation lap, guaranteed.

Well obviously Mercedes and Russel went the 1 stop in the moment and therefore couldn’t possibly workout how much extra weight would be lost through rubber falling off 4 wheels.

What does 1.5kg work out as a percentage of the 800kg limit anyway? Any advantage would be less than 0.001 per lap. It’s absurd.

 

[Vader]

Ironically you heard Merc talk to Lewis about lifting and coasting early on to ensure enough leftover fuel, and it was the weight issue that they totally forgot about.

Fuel doesn't count towards the weight - what matters is the car's weight after the fuel has been drained.

They do need to finish with at least 1.0 L left in the tank, for scrutineering. Russell finished with 2.5 L left in the tank. I suspect they were worried about Hamilton running the tank dry, rather than the overall car weight.

 

[Forward Press]

Well obviously Mercedes and Russel went the 1 stop in the moment and therefore couldn’t possibly workout how much extra weight would be lost through rubber falling off 4 wheels.

What does 1.5kg work out as a percentage of the 800kg limit anyway? Any advantage would be less than 0.001 per lap. It’s absurd.

0.2% or so.

In a race, that is about three seconds, roughly. Pretty sure you understand that that's quite significant in the context of the race result...

 

[Vader]

Well obviously Mercedes and Russel went the 1 stop in the moment and therefore couldn’t possibly workout how much extra weight would be lost through rubber falling off 4 wheels.

What does 1.5kg work out as a percentage of the 800kg limit anyway? Any advantage would be less than 0.001 per lap. It’s absurd.

1.5 / 798 = 0.00187 (0.2%)