Top 15 players 07 - 09 Drafts

[MightyTiger]

And yet you take Hurley, Rioli and Sam Reid in front of him and they have hardly proven that they are durable enough for AFL footy. The Talia call is just plain baffling. How the hell could you possibly think that Talia is a better player than Cotchin?? Or better yet, has proven more?

All Knightmare ever does is judge kids based purely on talent, I tend to take other aspects of his posting less seriously.

 

[thegenius]

1. Cotchin
2. Naitanui
3. Dangerfield
4. Beams
5. Rioli
6. Fyfe
7. Taylor
8. Ward
9. Walker
10. Zaharakis
11. Selwood
12. Kruezer
13. Martin
14. Sidebottom
15. Sloane

This is based on what I feel their value is now.

Unlucky, Hannebury, Shuey, Davis, Rockliff, Rance, Barlow, Ziebell, Reid

Whilst Hurley will likely become a star, he is a KPP & will take time & is very overrated on his output to date.

I also feel Melbourne fans heavily overrate their pair of Trengove & Grimes, captaincy doesn't automatically means they're gun footballers & believe all of the above are ahead.

& while I like Steven Hill I feel he's too inconsistent & almost too outside to have value ahead of any of the above.

I've probably overlooked a couple in here somewhere as well

 

[Demonheart]

Start a team tomorrow I'd take Naitanui first. Before Ablett. Before Franklin. He can take over games like few others and the sheer contested ball winning and the forward momentum he can create is like no other to have played the game. Naitanui for me.

Agreed

/sigh

 

[Knightmare]

And yet you take Hurley, Rioli and Sam Reid in front of him and they have hardly proven that they are durable enough for AFL footy. The Talia call is just plain baffling. How the hell could you possibly think that Talia is a better player than Cotchin?? Or better yet, has proven more?

Talia is younger but as a KPP they take longer to establish themselves. He is now established and looking like the best young key defender in the league right now. He'll no doubt continue to improve.

Hurley and Reid also have plenty of improvement in them and with the rarety of quality KPPs relative to quality mids I'd go with the big first. Hurley + Reid both have plenty of improvement left and in 2-3 years time will both be entirely different players and should be discussed as being among the very elite key forwards.

Rioli is a freak of a different kind and even though he is not a pure mid his influence on contests is up there with the best of this group. He changes games and can individually win it. The important thing with him is where he has in influence and when a guy can have the sheer influence Rioli does forward of centre it's difficult to pass him by.

Redden has set up a lot of our wins this year and will win the B and F i love rockliff but i rate redden higher he is more damaging with the ball and a better kick which is why adelaide want him so much

Redden certainly deserves the B+F this year. My expectations of Rockliff are more based on his second half of 2011 production where he had Swan like numbers.

I feel for much of the year Rockliff has been played out of position up forward without those other forward options. He is good forward of centre but needs to be played through the midfield more.

It will be interesting to see who has the better career at the end of the day.

 

[Pegasaur]

1. Cotchin
2. Naitanui
3. Dangerfield
4. Beams
5. Rioli
6. Fyfe
7. Taylor
8. Ward
9. Walker
10. Zaharakis
11. Selwood
12. Kruezer
13. Martin
14. Sidebottom
15. Sloane

This is based on what I feel their value is now.

Unlucky, Hannebury, Shuey, Davis, Rockliff, Rance, Barlow, Ziebell, Reid

Whilst Hurley will likely become a star, he is a KPP & will take time & is very overrated on his output to date.

I also feel Melbourne fans heavily overrate their pair of Trengove & Grimes, captaincy doesn't automatically means they're gun footballers & believe all of the above are ahead.

& while I like Steven Hill I feel he's too inconsistent & almost too outside to have value ahead of any of the above.

I've probably overlooked a couple in here somewhere as well

I'm not saying Hill should be higher than Naitanui but the only reason Hill isn't very consistant is because he is (heavily) tagged almost every game, every time he isn't tagged he will cut up the opposition like he did against North on the weekend (5 goals assists).

My point is that if the reason Hill (his name is Stephen BTW) is not on your list based purely on inconsistency than I can hardly see why Naitanui should be on there either.

 

[Knightmare]

All Knightmare ever does is judge kids based purely on talent, I tend to take other aspects of his posting less seriously.

I bump my ratings up a fair bit for KPPs - when it is clear that they will be highly successful at AFL level. Particularly young when evaluating what is expected over the span of their career.

I could name 80 quality midfielders I'd love on my team while I could only name 15 key forwards and less than 10 ruckmen I'd look at. Quality midfielders are so much easier to get so when evaluating who you take first you need to keep this in mind.

If I went through say the key forwards or key defenders I'd start a team with first Hurley and S.Reid would be higher up my ratings than Cotchin (who would be a top 20, close to top 10 mid to start a team with) but Hurley and S.Reid would be top 10 by position in my mind for key forwards to start with.

This in my mind is the difference.

This early on there is no one correct answer and I expect the greatest varience would be in the evaluation the KPPs as they are all still developing.

 

[thegenius]

I'm not saying Hill should be higher than Naitanui but the only reason Hill isn't very consistant is because he is (heavily) tagged almost every game, every time he isn't tagged he will cut up the opposition like he did against North on the weekend (5 goals assists).

My point is that if the reason Hill (his name is Stephen BTW) is not on your list based purely on inconsistency than I can hardly see why Naitanui should be on there either.

If he can't play through a tag that's his problem & doesn't deserve to be on this list...virtually every mid on here get's tagged heavily, likely heavier than Hill & still play well. A tag causing inconsistency is a very poor excuse & probably adds weight to the fact that the player is simply not good enough to be on the list. & as I also said Hill doesn't have enough versatility, ie. not strong enough as an inside mid... a few more strings to his bow would probably help this deficiency of being inconsistent due to being tagged

Nic Nat is a bit inconsistent but he can still have a bad game & have a heavy influence on the result. His best is also far better than Hill's. & I'd hazard a guess that oppositions would put a lot more time into quelling Nic Nats influence every week than they would Hill

 

[Pegasaur]

If he can't play through a tag that's his problem & doesn't deserve to be on this list...virtually every mid on here get's tagged heavily, likely heavier than Hill & still play well. A tag causing inconsistency is a very poor excuse & probably adds weight to the fact that the player is simply not good enough to be on the list. & as I also said Hill doesn't have enough versatility, ie. not strong enough as an inside mid... a few more strings to his bow would probably help this deficiency of being inconsistent due to being tagged

Nic Nat is a bit inconsistent but he can still have a bad game & have a heavy influence on the result. His best is also far better than Hill's. & I'd hazard a guess that oppositions would put a lot more time into quelling Nic Nats influence every week than they would Hill

I think you're probably right, I'm not saying Nic is worse than Hill but what I am saying is that you can't judge one player on his good games and then say another player is too inconsistant. Nic Nat's best is better than almost everyone's, but if you don't put any effort into stopping Hill then you've essentially admitting defeat.

 

[MightyTiger]

I bump my ratings up a fair bit for KPPs - when it is clear that they will be highly successful at AFL level. Particularly young when evaluating what is expected over the span of their career.

I could name 80 quality midfielders I'd love on my team while I could only name 15 key forwards and less than 10 ruckmen I'd look at. Quality midfielders are so much easier to get so when evaluating who you take first you need to keep this in mind.

If I went through say the key forwards or key defenders I'd start a team with first Hurley and S.Reid would be higher up my ratings than Cotchin (who would be a top 20, close to top 10 mid to start a team with) but Hurley and S.Reid would be top 10 by position in my mind for key forwards to start with.

This in my mind is the difference.

This early on there is no one correct answer and I expect the greatest varience would be in the evaluation the KPPs as they are all still developing.

As I said, all you do is watch kids play and judge them on talent/potential.

Instead of naming KPPs who have achieved closed to diddly squat in the AFL in a top20 list maybe you should make a list of the top20 'potentially' best KPPs.

Cotchin has been the best performed player from 07-09 drafts, could make an argument for either of Dangerfield or Naitanui depending on bias etc.

Performance > Potential

 

[Knightmare]

As I said, all you do is watch kids play and judge them on talent/potential.

Instead of naming KPPs who have achieved closed to diddly squat in the AFL in a top20 list maybe you should make a list of the top20 'potentially' best KPPs.

Cotchin has been the best performed player from 07-09 drafts, could make an argument for either of Dangerfield or Naitanui depending on bias etc.

Performance > Potential

I'd consider both Naitanui and Rioli the better performed up to this point in time and both ahead of Cotchin.

With Beams on parr with Cotchin on achievements up to this stage and possibly slightly ahead with Beams having being part of a premiership and having caried the midfield of a top 4 team this year as Collingwood's best player this year.

But I'll talk about why both Naitanui and Rioli are both better performed players.

What Naitanui and Rioli do goes beyond the dreamteam points and there are other ways that these players influence games and judging their influences on games goes well beyond disposal numbers and it takes a much deeper statistical analysis to fully measure just how good Naitanui and Rioli are.

Firstly Naitanui. This guy changes games. He is not only a highlight machine but also a player with the greatest substance to his game in the league. His hitout numbers for a player of his age are elite and he does so while sharing the ruck load with Cox. The vast majority of Naitanui's marks are flying, contested marks and regularly in meaningful positions.
The sheer quantity of contested ball he wins is unlike that of any other ruckman in the history of the game and the fact that he does something meaningful with it every time he gets his hands on it is something else entirely and the impact of this can't be measure. The sheer forward momentum Naitanui can generate is unlike that of any other player the game has seen for a player of his position and size and he plays an smart, unselfish style of game. His tackling game for a ruckman is rare and on his day can accumulate 10 tackles but more importantly he makes his tackles stick.
His influence goes further beyond the stats sheet than any other player in the game and is already the best ruckman in the competition which is pretty special for a 22 year old.
With Naitanui 15 disposals is the equivalent to a 40 disposal game of Cotchin and while Cotchin's influence with the footy for a midfielder is among the best Naitanui's is in an entirely different league because of the way he wins it.

Rioli is the more close comparison and while different positions again make it unclear he would by far and away be my choice on immediate impact and if marking only on what has been achieved up to this point and on consistency Rioli would probably be no.1 even if others have slightly gone past him now that they have established themselves. Rioli is already a premiership player and likely after this season will be a two time premiership player. Despite the perception and being a small forward he has a very complete game - his speed and agility is elite and his evasiveness is up there with the best. Whether you play him up forward or through the midfield a 15 disposal game is the equivalent to a 30 disposal game from Cotchin. Both are among the best users of the footy in the league and can win his own footy but with Rioli it is where he wins it and how he wins it that make him all the more special and that extra bit more damaging. In addition to his offensive influence his tackling and chasing game is the best in the league and he sends fear into that of opposition defenders regularly making them panic kick it out of their defensive zone and not allowing any run and carry from the back half. He can keep it in the forward zone and if you allow him goal side running into space it's game over.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

I'd consider both Naitanui and Rioli the better performed up to this point in time and both ahead of Cotchin.

With Beams on parr with Cotchin on achievements up to this stage and possibly slightly ahead with Beams having being part of a premiership and having caried the midfield of a top 4 team this year as Collingwood's best player this year.

But I'll talk about why both Naitanui and Rioli are both better performed players.

What Naitanui and Rioli do goes beyond the dreamteam points and there are other ways that these players influence games and judging their influences on games goes well beyond disposal numbers and it takes a much deeper statistical analysis to fully measure just how good Naitanui and Rioli are.

Firstly Naitanui. This guy changes games. He is not only a highlight machine but also a player with the greatest substance to his game in the league. His hitout numbers for a player of his age are elite and he does so while sharing the ruck load with Cox. The vast majority of Naitanui's marks are flying, contested marks and regularly in meaningful positions.
The sheer quantity of contested ball he wins is unlike that of any other ruckman in the history of the game and the fact that he does something meaningful with it every time he gets his hands on it is something else entirely and the impact of this can't be measure. The sheer forward momentum Naitanui can generate is unlike that of any other player the game has seen for a player of his position and size and he plays an smart, unselfish style of game. His tackling game for a ruckman is rare and on his day can accumulate 10 tackles but more importantly he makes his tackles stick.
His influence goes further beyond the stats sheet than any other player in the game and is already the best ruckman in the competition which is pretty special for a 22 year old.
With Naitanui 15 disposals is the equivalent to a 40 disposal game of Cotchin and while Cotchin's influence with the footy for a midfielder is among the best Naitanui's is in an entirely different league because of the way he wins it.

Rioli is the more close comparison and while different positions again make it unclear he would by far and away be my choice on immediate impact and if marking only on what has been achieved up to this point and on consistency Rioli would probably be no.1 even if others have slightly gone past him now that they have established themselves. Rioli is already a premiership player and likely after this season will be a two time premiership player. Despite the perception and being a small forward he has a very complete game - his speed and agility is elite and his evasiveness is up there with the best. Whether you play him up forward or through the midfield a 15 disposal game is the equivalent to a 30 disposal game from Cotchin. Both are among the best users of the footy in the league and can win his own footy but with Rioli it is where he wins it and how he wins it that make him all the more special and that extra bit more damaging. In addition to his offensive influence his tackling and chasing game is the best in the league and he sends fear into that of opposition defenders regularly making them panic kick it out of their defensive zone and not allowing any run and carry from the back half. He can keep it in the forward zone and if you allow him goal side running into space it's game over.

You haven't watched Cotchin play, or you've taken a stand to not rate him. Seriously mate, the guy is nearly in the top 5 mids right now...and he kicks goals.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

1. Naitanui
2. Fyfe
3. Dangerfield
4. Beams
5. Rioli
6. Hurley
7. S.Reid
8. D.Talia
9. Cotchin
10. H.Taylor
11. T.Walker
12. D.Martin
13. Rockliff
14. Sloane
15. C.Ward

Why is anyone bothering to reply to this troll?


FWIW it was just anounced that Newman will step down as captain of Richmond. It seems Cotch will become the 2nd(?) player from this group to captain a club.

 

[Knightmare]

You haven't watched Cotchin play, or you've taken a stand to not rate him. Seriously mate, the guy is nearly in the top 5 mids right now...and he kicks goals.

You need to remember the criteria stated by MightyTiger was what the player has achieved up to this point. I agree Cotchin has been a clear top 10 and close to top 5 midfielder this season but you have to remember over those first 3 years of his career he just couldn't get his body right.

Rioli in season 1 was an established player and from season one was the best player by his position in the competition. Naitanui is by position not the 4th or 5th best but THE best at his position in the competition and in the most important position on the field.

Then going on what they look like they will achieve:
Dangerfield with his contested ball winning ability and pace looks like Chris Judd the way he has been changing games this season with his influence.

Beams has this season surpassed Pendlebury and Swan to become Collingwood's no.1 midfielder and from season one was producing to a high level.

Hurley looks like a Cloke who can play at both ends and when healthy take over games - which few can this year on. He looks every bit as talented.

And S.Reid with his marking at times has shown that he can dominate while still developing looking at how quickly Ben developed in seasons 4-5 it's a fair bet that Sam will do similar. So why can't Reid become an All Australian or close at some stage?

Then Talia looks the best young key defender in the competition the way he has been shutting down opposition key forwards this year.

Cotchin in all likelihood looks a Brownlow Medalist at some point if he continues to improve and can stay healthy and will no doubt Captain Richmond. He is close to a Pendlebury level talent and does many of the same things. These past two seasons he has really elevated his game now that he is healthy but will he stay healthy?
I have the same concerns for Fyfe with his shoulder.

I don't see any of this as being clear cut and that whole top 9 should be in that same conversation - with KPPs this early on it's just not as clear cut and there is still great potential for things to change in a hurry. It only takes one breakout season or one injury for things to change.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Why is anyone bothering to reply to this troll?


FWIW it was just anounced that Newman will step down as captain of Richmond. It seems Cotch will become the 2nd(?) player from this group to captain a club.

That's embarrassing... obviously you haven't seen much of KM.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Cotchin's achilles injury was growth related. He hasn't had an injury since the 2009-10 offseason.

How could you possibly compare the best small forward to being the 2nd-5th best mid?

 

[MightyTiger]

I'd consider both Naitanui and Rioli the better performed up to this point in time and both ahead of Cotchin.

With Beams on parr with Cotchin on achievements up to this stage and possibly slightly ahead with Beams having being part of a premiership and having caried the midfield of a top 4 team this year as Collingwood's best player this year.

But I'll talk about why both Naitanui and Rioli are both better performed players.

What Naitanui and Rioli do goes beyond the dreamteam points and there are other ways that these players influence games and judging their influences on games goes well beyond disposal numbers and it takes a much deeper statistical analysis to fully measure just how good Naitanui and Rioli are.

Firstly Naitanui. This guy changes games. He is not only a highlight machine but also a player with the greatest substance to his game in the league. His hitout numbers for a player of his age are elite and he does so while sharing the ruck load with Cox. The vast majority of Naitanui's marks are flying, contested marks and regularly in meaningful positions.
The sheer quantity of contested ball he wins is unlike that of any other ruckman in the history of the game and the fact that he does something meaningful with it every time he gets his hands on it is something else entirely and the impact of this can't be measure. The sheer forward momentum Naitanui can generate is unlike that of any other player the game has seen for a player of his position and size and he plays an smart, unselfish style of game. His tackling game for a ruckman is rare and on his day can accumulate 10 tackles but more importantly he makes his tackles stick.
His influence goes further beyond the stats sheet than any other player in the game and is already the best ruckman in the competition which is pretty special for a 22 year old.
With Naitanui 15 disposals is the equivalent to a 40 disposal game of Cotchin and while Cotchin's influence with the footy for a midfielder is among the best Naitanui's is in an entirely different league because of the way he wins it.

Rioli is the more close comparison and while different positions again make it unclear he would by far and away be my choice on immediate impact and if marking only on what has been achieved up to this point and on consistency Rioli would probably be no.1 even if others have slightly gone past him now that they have established themselves. Rioli is already a premiership player and likely after this season will be a two time premiership player. Despite the perception and being a small forward he has a very complete game - his speed and agility is elite and his evasiveness is up there with the best. Whether you play him up forward or through the midfield a 15 disposal game is the equivalent to a 30 disposal game from Cotchin. Both are among the best users of the footy in the league and can win his own footy but with Rioli it is where he wins it and how he wins it that make him all the more special and that extra bit more damaging. In addition to his offensive influence his tackling and chasing game is the best in the league and he sends fear into that of opposition defenders regularly making them panic kick it out of their defensive zone and not allowing any run and carry from the back half. He can keep it in the forward zone and if you allow him goal side running into space it's game over.

Rioli??

 

[CazzaTheFootyBoy]

1. Cotchin
2. Naitanui
3. Dangerfield
4. Beams
5. Rioli
6. Fyfe
7. Taylor
8. Ward
9. Walker
10. Zaharakis
11. Selwood
12. Kruezer
13. Martin
14. Sidebottom
15. Sloane

This is based on what I feel their value is now.

Unlucky, Hannebury, Shuey, Davis, Rockliff, Rance, Barlow, Ziebell, Reid

Whilst Hurley will likely become a star, he is a KPP & will take time & is very overrated on his output to date.

I also feel Melbourne fans heavily overrate their pair of Trengove & Grimes, captaincy doesn't automatically means they're gun footballers & believe all of the above are ahead.

& while I like Steven Hill I feel he's too inconsistent & almost too outside to have value ahead of any of the above.

I've probably overlooked a couple in here somewhere as well

What about Toby Greene and Andrew Gaff? Otherwise pretty good list. Cazza like!

 

[Knightmare]

Cotchin's achilles injury was growth related. He hasn't had an injury since the 2009-10 offseason.

How could you possibly compare the best small forward to being the 2nd-5th best mid?

Cotchin has still been to some extent managed with his training though up until at least 2011 from my reading.

Before this season Cotchin was not a top 10 league midfielder and in those first three seasons was a long way off where he is at now.

As a midfielder to start a team I would still take: Ablett, Pendlebury, Selwood, Fyfe, Dangerfield, Beams, Murphy, Watson and J.Kennedy before Cotchin. (Watson and Kennedy in particular I'm sure will draw plenty of debate because they both have found their best later on and early career were nothing significant but I see both lasting in this league well into their 30s and I expect both to replicate their performances of this season).

And on this season: Ablett, Watson, J.Kennedy, Dangerfield and Beams have all been better performed mids.


As for Rioli v Cotchin. Rioli's value is around that of a top 10 league midfielder, but the key difference is that he has always been that good and from season one all along has been changing games and has been and still is one of the primary ingredients to their premiership runs. Cotchin certainly this year and even for parts of last year established himself as one of the competitions elite midfielders. I am not debating that Cotchin is not one of the leagues elite midfielders. He absolutely is. But it is only this year he has absolutely proven that he is in the top 10 and a potential for the top 5 midfielder.
The same could be said about Beams and Dangerfield but in essense I value that 2-9 group exceptionally closely and as far as I'm concerned you could pick them in any order with Naitanui the only player in his own category.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

You need to remember the criteria stated by MightyTiger was what the player has achieved up to this point. I agree Cotchin has been a clear top 10 and close to top 5 midfielder this season but you have to remember over those first 3 years of his career he just couldn't get his body right.

Rioli in season 1 was an established player and from season one was the best player by his position in the competition. Naitanui is by position not the 4th or 5th best but THE best at his position in the competition and in the most important position on the field.

Then going on what they look like they will achieve:
Dangerfield with his contested ball winning ability and pace looks like Chris Judd the way he has been changing games this season with his influence.

Beams has this season surpassed Pendlebury and Swan to become Collingwood's no.1 midfielder and from season one was producing to a high level.

Hurley looks like a Cloke who can play at both ends and when healthy take over games - which few can this year on. He looks every bit as talented.

And S.Reid with his marking at times has shown that he can dominate while still developing looking at how quickly Ben developed in seasons 4-5 it's a fair bet that Sam will do similar. So why can't Reid become an All Australian or close at some stage?

Then Talia looks the best young key defender in the competition the way he has been shutting down opposition key forwards this year.

Cotchin in all likelihood looks a Brownlow Medalist at some point if he continues to improve and can stay healthy and will no doubt Captain Richmond. He is close to a Pendlebury level talent and does many of the same things. These past two seasons he has really elevated his game now that he is healthy but will he stay healthy?
I have the same concerns for Fyfe with his shoulder.

I don't see any of this as being clear cut and that whole top 9 should be in that same conversation - with KPPs this early on it's just not as clear cut and there is still great potential for things to change in a hurry. It only takes one breakout season or one injury for things to change.

Your points are contradictory and all of over the place. Simple facts. Right now Cotchin is the best player out of these drafts. He, along with Beams has had the best season of anyone in these drafts. Cotchin won the Richmond B&F last year and will win it again this year. Nobody else has done that. He will go very close to the Brownlow and is a almost certain to finish top 5. Also, he has won the coaches award this season.
You talk about production so far...that is producing. What about Dangerfield? He had done nothing before this season?? Beams was a solid role player for the start of his career, but nothing like what Cotchin was for Richmond last year.
So you talk about production and then you go on to name 3 guys because of potential...???
You talk about injuries but Cotchin goes as hard as any mid in the league and hasn't had an injury over the last couple of years. How can you be worried about his durability and not Rioli's?? Or Hurleys??

And the whole dangerous/dominating thing is absurd. If Cotchin played as a full time forward he would have far more influence on the game than Rioli currently does. Have you actually watched Cotchin in a one on one contest? He is almost impossible to beat.

Your argument against Cotchin is that he might be injury prone and this list is about what they have produced up until now.
My answers. He played 22 games last year and 22 games this year. That is more than any other player you have put in front of him. He will win 2 B&Fs and a Coaches award, that is more than anyone else has done. Your argument does not make sense and you are striving to reach a twig to pull yourself out of the quicksand.

 

[sTeeL]

Gaff is 2010 draft anyway

 

[1970crow]

Very harsh to have Cotchin so low. Whilst Talia, Reid, Hurley all look like they might become excellent players, they have achieved nothing more than potential. Cotchin won the AFLCA award and is 2nd favourite for the Brownlow. I would have him in my top 3. Honestly, on BF potential is more highly valued than actual output.

You're right about cotch. But you underate talia. Nearly aa chb in his first full year of footy. Deserves his spot.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

You're right about cotch. But you underate talia. Nearly aa chb in his first full year of footy. Deserves his spot.

That's very debatable...

 

[Knightmare]

I'd have guys like Ted Richards, Tom Lonergan, Scott Thompson (NM), Luke McPharlin, Eric McKenzie and probably another 2-3 guys ahead of Talia but he has certainly been a clear top 10 key defender this year for mine and has really come into his own playing some big shutdown roles. Only his third season and you can't help but be impressed with what he has done this season as such a young KPP.

 

[Danair]

Why is anyone bothering to reply to this troll?


FWIW it was just anounced that Newman will step down as captain of Richmond. It seems Cotch will become the 2nd(?) player from this group to captain a club.

Settle down.

 

[1970crow]

That's very debatable...

No shit, that's why I said nearly. Won't matter, they won't be able to fit pav into fwd or mid so he'll get chb. Seriously though, talia has taken some big scalps and had an excellent year. He'd be deserving if he got it. Bet he's in the initial list.