Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 5 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[VogonProsthetnic]

Matt Fuller and we took him with a third round pick. Christian Howard was the first rounder from SA.

Sorry was confusing the two.

Was pre -Dalrymple I assume.

 

[dogwatch]

Charlie Parker seemed a boom or bust selection who turned out a bust. I preferred that selection to McComb though.

And perhaps we learned from errors of the last decade. We delisted him as soon as it became clear he wasn't going to make the grade at senior AFL level.

 

[Mofra]

Sorry was confusing the two.

Was pre -Dalrymple I assume.

Howard was Dalrymple's first draft - Dal was part time that year before becoming a full time employee the following year

 

[dogwatch]

Sorry was confusing the two.

Was pre -Dalrymple I assume.

No I think both were Dalrymple picks. The Howard pick was in his first draft as recruiter IIRC.

 

[grassman75]

Matt Fuller and we took him with a third round pick. Christian Howard was the first rounder from SA.

Like I said, unknown left footers from SA.

 

[grassman75]

No I think both were Dalrymple picks. The Howard pick was in his first draft as recruiter IIRC.

I do remember one of them didn't even have a photo or highlights when drafted

 

[goodcop badcop]

That was a most unusual and chaotic year though. Our hand was forced by Griffen walking out, closely followed by MacCartney, and so we took a unique and bold opportunity to grab former #1 pick Boyd. (At the cost us some additional high draft currency that seemed excessive at the time - pick #6 I think).

Griffen and Higgins (RFA) wanted out.
Pretty sure we'd already told Cooney he was not wanted before that all blew up.
Liam Jones was yet to find his mojo as a defender ... but I can't remember if he jumped or was pushed.
Tom Williams, Gia and Tutt all retired.
The others we delisted were definitely going nowhere (Mark Austin, Christian Howard, Alex Greenwood and Tom Young). If Dalrymple had no confidence in that year's draft perhaps he could have kept Austin as a break-glass option but the rest had no prospects at all. So that's at least nine where I'd say our hand was forced.

In addition to the arrivals you mentioned we promoted known quantities Jong and Redpath from the rookie list and we drafted Lukas Webb, Declan Hamilton and picked up Jordan Kelly as a rookie.

As it panned out Dalrymple did a great job in the draft and we picked up some gems but it's not a strategy you'd choose to embark on in any normal year. Let's hope this year doesn't end up like 2014! (Unless of course it also means we win a flag two years later ).

2014 was certainly unique, but the point I was trying to make is that big list changes isn't always a bad thing and can set you up in a big way. It could go the other way too and agreed it's not something we should be doing every year. I think you eventually have to take some risks though and the idea of it is that hopefully that can lead to another flag!

We've got a good core group of players on the list now with star talent, I'd like us to go all in and make something of it. The problem I see is a lot of players in and around the 22 are just not doing enough and have been for a couple years now. It's time to say goodbye to a fair few of them.

I think a few smart trades that hit our needs, an injection of youth and some more opportunities for our young talent already on our list may do wonders. I think some big changes to our coaching is also needed also.

 

[goodcop badcop]

It 100% is a question of who you cut in 2024. List management requires forward thinking and planning. If you cut too deep in one year you end up with no one to cut the next. Draftees get two year contracts so can’t cut them in 2024. The rest of the list you wanted to keep and or are contracted. So you have to retire or trade players.

Power would already be planning for 2024 list changes in line with who is coming out of contract. You are only cutting that deep for a full rebuild and you are trading players like Higgins, Jones, Griffen etc

Geelong has a very high turnover. They made 49 list changes 5 years.

2022
9

2021
10

2020
9

2019
9

2018
11

Hawthorn too had a high turnover from memory when they were making finals and winning premierships too. They key is they had a good group of core players that were young enough and they kept trading in players for needs.

You can always find enough players to cut, the question is how ruthless do you want to be?

 

[doggies ftw]

2014 was certainly unique, but the point I was trying to make is that big list changes isn't always a bad thing and can set you up in a big way. It could go the other way too and agreed it's not something we should be doing every year. I think you eventually have to take some risks though and the idea of it is that hopefully that can lead to another flag!

We've got a good core group of players on the list now with star talent, I'd like us to go all in and make something of it. The problem I see is a lot of players in and around the 22 are just not doing enough and have been for a couple years now. It's time to say goodbye to a fair few of them.

I think a few smart trades that hit our needs, an injection of youth and some more opportunities for our young talent already on our list may do wonders. I think some big changes to our coaching is also needed also.

100% agree with everything you’ve wrote here, just can’t see it happening unfortunately - we seem reluctant, to put it nicely, to make these decisions right now. We just keep going to the same old well and running it dry.

As much as it would suck I honestly think the only way this happens is if we shit the bed so badly this year that it’s literally the only option. Would be the best thing for us long term to be honest, rather than languishing mid table beating up on crap teams and getting beaten by anyone half decent

 

[hutchy31]

100% agree with everything you’ve wrote here, just can’t see it happening unfortunately - we seem reluctant, to put it nicely, to make these decisions right now. We just keep going to the same old well and running it dry.

As much as it would suck I honestly think the only way this happens is if we s**t the bed so badly this year that it’s literally the only option. Would be the best thing for us long term to be honest, rather than languishing mid table beating up on crap teams and getting beaten by anyone half decent

It’s not going to happen though, right? Look at our fixture after this week. Unless we get major injuries to multiple critical players (which nobody wants) I honestly can’t see us winning less than 10 games, and there’s a chance we sneak into finals as we’ve done in many recent years before being bundled out in the EF. We play hawks and giants twice, still have WC/North/GC, most other games are at Marvel/in VIC as well.

We’re not troubling the pointy end of the ladder though, not without a significant turnaround in the coming weeks.

Hopefully there’s a list refresh with a few high-ish picks this year and a free agent or two. Ideally a clean out of the footy department and some fresh coaching ideas, but I won’t hold my breath.

 

[_Cerberus_]

Geelong has a very high turnover. They made 49 list changes 5 years.

2022
9

2021
10

2020
9

2019
9

2018
11

Hawthorn too had a high turnover from memory when they were making finals and winning premierships too. They key is they had a good group of core players that were young enough and they kept trading in players for needs.

You can always find enough players to cut, the question is how ruthless do you want to be?

I think Geelong is a massive outlier though. Best culture, best at finding gems late in the draft, best coaching, leadership and team structures in the league by far. And a unique pay and contract structure which allows them to keep the list intact and not overpay people on long contracts.

The biggest difference between us and them, is they are a destination club. We just get other teams fringe players. And have had a fair few misses as much as successes. I'd only cut 10 if we were actually able to bring in top quality recruits via trade and free agency, whilst nailing a few late picks with our left over draft hands. I just don't see us being able to pull it off in the same way they do. More likely to shoot ourselves in the foot.

 

[_Cerberus_]

Apparently this guy has been playing well. Could be a potential mid season draft target? After all, a few here say we need a defender who can play defensively on small and medium forwards, with the ability to rebound as well.


Luke Teal Draft Profile

LUKE TEAL

SNAPSHOT: “A medium defender able to play on small and medium forwards while also providing rebound with his skill and composure.”
It has been a tricky year for Luke Teal, missing the first three weeks of the NAB League season missing some of the bigger games but returned against Calder Cannons in Round 4. He successfully had 19 disposals, and although was shaky early, he quickly got going again and by the end of the year was really hitting his straps.
Teal is a good size for a modern footballer, standing at around 190cm and playing mostly as a defender has played on a range of types but mostly small forwards with his biggest task against Harry Sheezel in Round 16. That was a good battle, with Teal finishing that game with 20 disposals and was a real weapon with his sharp kicking.
With his ability to shut down while also provide rebound, Teal could project to be like Collingwood defensive duo Brayden Maynard and Isaac Quaynor who both had a huge years for Collingwood showing those types of players to be very valuable in modern football.
Teal would finish the year only managing four games with Oakleigh Chargers but would average 17.8 disposals and five marks per game and although he has not shown to get the huge numbers like a Lachlan Cowan or Jakob Ryan, he has also had an interrupted year and has had to play more lockdown roles. Teal would also play the final game for Vic Metro against Vic Country which was his first representative game since last year where he also excelled down back.

 

[BulldogMuscle]

Apparently this guy has been playing well. Could be a potential mid season draft target? After all, a few here say we need a defender who can play defensively on small and medium forwards, with the ability to rebound as well.


Luke Teal Draft Profile

LUKE TEAL

SNAPSHOT: “A medium defender able to play on small and medium forwards while also providing rebound with his skill and composure.”
It has been a tricky year for Luke Teal, missing the first three weeks of the NAB League season missing some of the bigger games but returned against Calder Cannons in Round 4. He successfully had 19 disposals, and although was shaky early, he quickly got going again and by the end of the year was really hitting his straps.
Teal is a good size for a modern footballer, standing at around 190cm and playing mostly as a defender has played on a range of types but mostly small forwards with his biggest task against Harry Sheezel in Round 16. That was a good battle, with Teal finishing that game with 20 disposals and was a real weapon with his sharp kicking.
With his ability to shut down while also provide rebound, Teal could project to be like Collingwood defensive duo Brayden Maynard and Isaac Quaynor who both had a huge years for Collingwood showing those types of players to be very valuable in modern football.
Teal would finish the year only managing four games with Oakleigh Chargers but would average 17.8 disposals and five marks per game and although he has not shown to get the huge numbers like a Lachlan Cowan or Jakob Ryan, he has also had an interrupted year and has had to play more lockdown roles. Teal would also play the final game for Vic Metro against Vic Country which was his first representative game since last year where he also excelled down back.

I actually feel like our midseason draft needs to be used on either a pacy mid or another small forward, defense is actually the one line this year I'm not too stressed about, our midfield on the other hand...

 

[_Cerberus_]

I actually feel like our midseason draft needs to be used on either a pacy mid or another small forward, defense is actually the one line this year I'm not too stressed about, our midfield on the other hand...

Oh I agree. I guess it comes down to whether we purely target for needs now, or look to the long term outlook of the team and take best available.


Anyone know of any potential midseason draft midfielders playing well at the moment that could translate to AFL level? It is coming up pretty fast.

 

[doggies ftw]

Apparently this guy has been playing well. Could be a potential mid season draft target? After all, a few here say we need a defender who can play defensively on small and medium forwards, with the ability to rebound as well.


Luke Teal Draft Profile

LUKE TEAL

SNAPSHOT: “A medium defender able to play on small and medium forwards while also providing rebound with his skill and composure.”
It has been a tricky year for Luke Teal, missing the first three weeks of the NAB League season missing some of the bigger games but returned against Calder Cannons in Round 4. He successfully had 19 disposals, and although was shaky early, he quickly got going again and by the end of the year was really hitting his straps.
Teal is a good size for a modern footballer, standing at around 190cm and playing mostly as a defender has played on a range of types but mostly small forwards with his biggest task against Harry Sheezel in Round 16. That was a good battle, with Teal finishing that game with 20 disposals and was a real weapon with his sharp kicking.
With his ability to shut down while also provide rebound, Teal could project to be like Collingwood defensive duo Brayden Maynard and Isaac Quaynor who both had a huge years for Collingwood showing those types of players to be very valuable in modern football.
Teal would finish the year only managing four games with Oakleigh Chargers but would average 17.8 disposals and five marks per game and although he has not shown to get the huge numbers like a Lachlan Cowan or Jakob Ryan, he has also had an interrupted year and has had to play more lockdown roles. Teal would also play the final game for Vic Metro against Vic Country which was his first representative game since last year where he also excelled down back.

Sounds good to me, can replace AA midfielder Ed Richards

 

[Northernsoul74]

Apparently this guy has been playing well. Could be a potential mid season draft target? After all, a few here say we need a defender who can play defensively on small and medium forwards, with the ability to rebound as well.


Luke Teal Draft Profile

LUKE TEAL

SNAPSHOT: “A medium defender able to play on small and medium forwards while also providing rebound with his skill and composure.”
It has been a tricky year for Luke Teal, missing the first three weeks of the NAB League season missing some of the bigger games but returned against Calder Cannons in Round 4. He successfully had 19 disposals, and although was shaky early, he quickly got going again and by the end of the year was really hitting his straps.
Teal is a good size for a modern footballer, standing at around 190cm and playing mostly as a defender has played on a range of types but mostly small forwards with his biggest task against Harry Sheezel in Round 16. That was a good battle, with Teal finishing that game with 20 disposals and was a real weapon with his sharp kicking.
With his ability to shut down while also provide rebound, Teal could project to be like Collingwood defensive duo Brayden Maynard and Isaac Quaynor who both had a huge years for Collingwood showing those types of players to be very valuable in modern football.
Teal would finish the year only managing four games with Oakleigh Chargers but would average 17.8 disposals and five marks per game and although he has not shown to get the huge numbers like a Lachlan Cowan or Jakob Ryan, he has also had an interrupted year and has had to play more lockdown roles. Teal would also play the final game for Vic Metro against Vic Country which was his first representative game since last year where he also excelled down back.

Surprised he wasn’t drafted. Would be a nice Duryea replacement.

 

[Mr. Walker]

Apparently this guy has been playing well. Could be a potential mid season draft target? After all, a few here say we need a defender who can play defensively on small and medium forwards, with the ability to rebound as well.


Luke Teal Draft Profile

LUKE TEAL

We should get on board while the Teal Wave is still a thing.

 

[Dogs5416]

Geelong has a very high turnover. They made 49 list changes 5 years.

2022
9

2021
10

2020
9

2019
9

2018
11

Hawthorn too had a high turnover from memory when they were making finals and winning premierships too. They key is they had a good group of core players that were young enough and they kept trading in players for needs.

You can always find enough players to cut, the question is how ruthless do you want to be?

Geelong have a different strategy to us as they are a destination club. Last year they traded in Bowes, Bruhn and Henry. Drafted Clark and Foster through the national draft and Riccardi and Murdoch through the rookie. They then added two via cat B rookies in Clohesy and Mullin. Geelong always take heaps of rookies and have had some great successes but many end up delisted.

Outs were Dahl, Higgins and Selwood through retirement and Stephens traded. Evans, Narkle, Stevens, Williams and Tsapataolis all delisted. Of those only 2 played games. They were all later picks or rookies as cats trade out low picks.

We have much better young players than Geelong as we have invested through the draft. Reckon only Holmes and De Koning at this stage look like long term quality players. They have traded good picks for the likes of Cameron, Henry, Bruhn, Stanley, Danger, Tuohy, Henderson and Caddy. Of the low picks they have had they have traded many of them out like Clark, Stephens, cockatoo and Fogarty.

Completely different to us who look to the draft and trade for role players or sign free agents. We develop players which means they take longer and on the list longer. Cats are more ruthless due to their list management strategy of trading in rather than developing through the draft. That’s why they can make 9-11 cuts per year.

 

[Doggy]

We know in the MSD we will either pasd or pick someone from Footscray

 

[Scragger77]

With Bruce’s current injury and hot/cold form I see him thinking retirement at the EOTY. On our midfield struggles could we risk taking Richards from defence and trying him through the midfield and put Williams back to HB?

 

[Mofra]

I assume we're still tracking Cory Preston?

With Bruce’s current injury and hot/cold form I see him thinking retirement at the EOTY. On our midfield struggles could we risk taking Richards from defence and trying him through the midfield and put Williams back to HB?

Bruce and Keath may both retire, not entirely their decision either depending on how the rest of the year pans out.
Richards is a much, much better defender than he is anywhere else on the ground. I'd leave him there.

 

[doggies ftw]

We know Richards struggled in outside roles ahead of the ball so I definitely wouldn’t **** with that again (although I think he is just a much better overall player than he was, but still)

Though I’m tempted to throw him in the guts as it aligns with what he’s good at, whereas Wing/HFF didn’t. He’s a simple footballer, see ball, get ball, move it forward. He’s a beast physically these days, has the body to compete with the Oliver’s/Petraccas, he’s one of the best tacklers in our team, awesome contested player and can break open packs.

He’s an elite intercept player so obviously it’s not a full time move but the upside of a defensive minded, strong & athletic player taking a few centre bounces a qtr is worth exploring, it’s the sort of shake up which could free up Bont & Macrae to do what they do best. Just put him defensive side and tell him to hunt the pack and his job is to make sure no one rolls out the front of the stoppage unpressured, no one’s walking away from him like they do our other mids - if were in possession then do what you do best and offer a fast & direct route towards goals.

 

[maddog37]

Has Ed ever played on ball? Juniors etc?

 

[doggies ftw]

Has Ed ever played on ball? Juniors etc?

Yeah a little bit - Ed Richards

 

[NthBondiDoggies]

We know Richards struggled in outside roles ahead of the ball so I definitely wouldn’t * with that again (although I think he is just a much better overall player than he was, but still)

Though I’m tempted to throw him in the guts as it aligns with what he’s good at, whereas Wing/HFF didn’t. He’s a simple footballer, see ball, get ball, move it forward. He’s a beast physically these days, has the body to compete with the Oliver’s/Petraccas, he’s one of the best tacklers in our team, awesome contested player and can break open packs.

He’s an elite intercept player so obviously it’s not a full time move but the upside of a defensive minded, strong & athletic player taking a few centre bounces a qtr is worth exploring, it’s the sort of shake up which could free up Bont & Macrae to do what they do best. Just put him defensive side and tell him to hunt the pack and his job is to make sure no one rolls out the front of the stoppage unpressured, no one’s walking away from him like they do our other mids - if were in possession then do what you do best and offer a fast & direct route towards goals.

Much like Callum Mills move last year?