Trade/Delistings/List Management 2010 Thread

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Re: List Cloggers

Talk about overreaction. You make this thread after a couple of wins and the opinion of players would be totally different.

Monfries a list clogger..... couldn't be more wrong.
 
Re: List Cloggers

HFF_07 said:
I would like to see Monfries kick a lot more goals from ground balls. Lock the ball in more. He is too far away from goal, in our perfect world we would have 3 talls (Gumbleton, Neagle/Hurley, Hille/Ryder + Mark Williams in our forward 6. With Monfries there that is 4 tall marking options. 50m/60m/70m's can only get you so far with that amount of talls.. Last year, I remember sitting watching a game and seeing Monfries constantly get in the way of Neagle's leads, I thought to myself "**** off Gus", Neagle is the target".
I agree with your assessment BUT qualify that with the fact I think Gus has been instructed to play that lead up role. I think he actually ends up so high on the wings because we are so bad at getting the ball out of defence. With regards to getting in Neagles way.. this may be a communication and coaching thing. Getting used to playing with each other. I just really have liked Monfries attack on the ball and one of the few forwards that has actually looked dangerous for us this year. Not really used as a crumber but maybe should be.

With Riemers/Zaharakis they are another couple of players, playing as talls. They need to keep the ball inside 50 more often and better. Gus needs to do this role more, he only lays 2.33 tackles (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tr-essendon-bombers) a game, and are they all inside 50?
I put this down to too few having to do too much. Hard to lay a tackle when you are outnumbered 3-1. They spend a lot of time running between 2-3 opposition players but before they can stick the tackles the ball is cleared. This comes down to more midfield pressure. If the defenders didn't have so many open targets to hit in the middle then maybe our forwards would have more chance of "locking" it in. But defenders look up and see 3-4 open men and have disposed of it before we have a chance.

Prismall is an interesting one, came to the club with big expectations, a lot of pressure on a kid who has just come across from one of the greatest teams of all time, to a team struggling to find there feet. We need to find where he does his best work, play him forward perhaps? Averages nearly 5 tackles a game, decent enough skills, good goal sense? At the moment, his confidence must be low, struggling at Bendigo where 'apparently' he should dominate.

I am a prismall fan. Watched him rip up the VFL. Think Knights has stuffed him and he definitely is unhappy. Came to the bombers to play more AFL time in the midfield and has been stuck in the magoos. Feel sorry for him. Seems to get singled out by Knighter and some on this board. Clean disposer of the ball and able to run the lines. THIS is the guy that should be kicking that last entry into the forward 50. Knights sits there in a presser complianing cause we can't get it right and yet he has this guy sitting at bendigo. Unlike Dempsey and Colyer, this guy will hit a target more often than not. And his tackle count is high because he IS defensive. Those asserting he is soft are just plain wrong. He just doesn't like going to ground. Bit like G Ablett.. would prefer to keep his feet on the edge of the pack that go in and under. This SHOULD suit us fine as we have plenty of in and unders in hocking/lonergun/watson. Anyway enough said.. I'll get blasted anyway. But this guy should be playing AFL.

Davey has showed something in the past few weeks at Bendigo, must be chomping at the bit to get back in the seniors. His omission from the side he has taken on the chin, gone back to Bendigo where he has worked on his deficiencies and improved them and got them back to somewhere acceptable. With Zaharakis as that small forward, and the possibility of Jetta coming in (unbeknown why), a quartet of Zaharakis, Jetta, Davey and Riemers playing forward of the ball is a tantalising prospect. Allthough I do not see this happening in the near future. Davey is starting to play better footy up the ground, his skills are equisite and he runs and carry's the ball to dangerous spots, 'the linebreaker' that we have been missing since round 1 I feel. He should come into the side this week and do a good job I imagine.

Yep, agree he has enjoyed the slower pace of the VFL to get back to some form. Appeared less fumbly last week and can't wait to have some pressure back in the forward line.

T-Bell is coming along nicely, obviously I am going to apply the 'talls take time to develop' line here, but T-Bell has shown some very promising signs in the limited games I have seen of him. I remember seeing him play at Frankston where they got smashed, T-Bell put his hand up and played a blinder, took some good contested grabs, used the ball well and rucked pretty well. Obviously he is 4th in line behind Hille, Ryder and Laycock, but he is going to be putting pressure on these 3 very soon I imagine, it would not even surprise me to see rival clubs putting deals on the table for his services come years end. Big call I know, but I feel we have found a good kid in Bellchambers.

Bit like mummy at geelong.. could get poached before we see his best. Rate him very highly. Think he will pass lazycock very soon.

On Bock, I do not think he will make it, obviously very young and very raw, but he just does not have the intensity or the aggression to make it at the top line. He seems to be tall and that is what has got him to where he is. At the Bullants game (round 1) he constantly dropped balls he should have won, was lazy and unfit. Kicking was not even up to VFL standard. Will wait and see on this 19 year old beanpole though.

phew.. someone with some sense. Just can't see it happening.

T.Slattery should have played on the weekend. He is a lockdown type player who I have been calling for weeks to be included. He closes down his man whilst also zoning off to provide some rebound. Howlett should also be a chance to come back into the team after being stiff to be dropped in the first place. Marigliani should also be a player looked at very closely, if people want some help for Watson in the guts, get this guy in right now. Big body, not afraid to put his head over the ball and I feel, will not e overawed by the moment if he got the chance to play AFL footy. Good skills who is also able to go forward. He has not been named in the best all year, I feel because the people who watch VFL footy, see him do the same thing, week in, week out without ripping games apart. When he does, you'll know about it.

To me this is the guy we should be playing at HBF not Houli.

Neagle has to play, as one poster alluded too in a thread, Neagle is a traditional stay at home forward. He is not one to run all day, He leads, goes back and kicks goals. What is different between Mark Williams and Neagle? Both leading players who grab marks, go back and kick goals. Both seem to struggle putting on tackles. I would like to see Neagle use his bodu more, seems to want to hurt people more without the ball in the area than when it is at the moment. An extended run in the seniors woul be good. Remember he is still only what 22? 23? at the end of next year will be a telling time for him.

Long and short if Lloyd was pushed out for him, then he needs to play. Also we need a traditional forward. Gotta run him. Agree 100%

any ways I am off to work now, will come back on and discuss this later with anyone..
Click to expand...

Response in bold. Astute observations and clearly a man who watches more than the gloss. How would you go about clearing the list? Trades or just delist and recruit.. considering the GC gets everything and then GWS I think trading is best. Any of those fringe players that you think we could get anything for?
 

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Re: List Cloggers

HFF_07 said:
David Myers is on his last legs too IMO, inside midfielder? defender? rebounder? what is he? Once he figures it out, can someone get him to let us know.. I personally do not think he is going to cut it and be in our next premiership side, but hey. I am not clouded by the 'high draft pick' glasses people are wearing.
Click to expand...

A lot of Carlton supporters thought the same about Jordan Russell.
 
Re: List Cloggers

atkinson is a gun .. why are people bruising him.

his not a list clogger, his a match winner.
 
Re: List Cloggers

rines said:
Response in bold. Astute observations and clearly a man who watches more than the gloss. How would you go about clearing the list? Trades or just delist and recruit.. considering the GC gets everything and then GWS I think trading is best. Any of those fringe players that you think we could get anything for?
Click to expand...


Trading is for later in the year, but players for picks is what we need..

Not fringe players who could become something or pay over the price for (see Mark Williams).. We need picks to complement our list. Pick the best midfielder at the time if available, pick the best player at the time (which I do not think the EFC has done that well in the past recent years.
 
Re: List Cloggers

Very surprised by the inclusion of any players who are 22 or under and have not been give opportunities to perform at AFL level with peak fitness. Think of all of the rookies and mature aged recruits making currently making an impact in the AFL.

Not cloggers:

That so many are prepared to write off Myers knowing all we do about his body is quite amusing. I am a broken record on this but we need to give credit where it is due and the recruiting from 2007 – 2009 has been very
good. We have replaced the key backs and the forwards look promising. Zaharakis and Melksham are the other midfielders taken high in the draft, both have been very impressive and seem of really strong character. Knights backed Myers as a gun of the future last week so to write him of as a list clogger is premature.

The same can be said of Jetta. Reports of his performance at Bendigo in his first game back after becoming a father (and hopefully maturing as so many of his peers have) are very encouraging. 5 shots on goal and defensive pressure in the forward line are exactly what we need.

I may be looking at Dyson with rose coloured glasses in saying that his last 18 months has put him in our best 22. He is 25 with close to 100 games under his belt and the bulk of his improvement has come in the last year. Why abandon the wait now? Dyson is rated as one of the best kick in the league and moves well; he is a calm presence at half back and his contested work is better. Can he now add 3-5 kgs and become a real physical force? If it all happens he could actually be a gun.

Dyson had 14 possessions at 79% efficiency in round 1, 22 at 64% in round 2, 28 at 82% in round 3 and16 at 75% in rounds 4 and 5. The numbers don’t say as much as I’d hoped but they’re not terrible.

Why can’t Hocking be our Ling? He has similar physical dimensions and capabilities. He is a brute of a guy and gets the ball enough to show he understands the game. I am happier to see him run out for Essendon than McVeigh of 09/10 or Welsh. He is adding the small defender string to his bow and is no worse with the ball than many in our side.

Lovett-Murry is at least an insurance policy until Tyson Slattery can hold down a spot in the back line and Myers proves himself. He has his limitations but is ultimately an effective and versatile footballer. I would go as far as starting him in the square to provide some grunt and pace to help Watson get the ball going our way.

I am shocked that Monfries is being mentioned as a list clogger. There is no doubt that he will need to be reassigned with the rise to fitness of Gumbleton and the presence of genuine KPPs in the forward line now. Monfries is going to have to play as a "small" and/or take up the defensive half forward role in the forward line. Surely he should be given the chance, we are talking about a guy who plays all of his best fotball against quality opposition.

I don’t know anything about the rookies as players (Howlett being the exception and he has shown quite a bit). Bock is 19 and the judgement don’t start until he is 21 or 22. The reports on Cox’s first few years at the club are unbelievable given what he is capable of these days. I have mates 10 – 15cm shorter than Bock who started to fill out at 23 (Bock only just turned 20) so I am not sure what we expect of him. History says Bock will get 5 years and he probably should.


The cloggers:

Welsh was good against Geelong and can certainly do a role but he is either effectively tagging or horrible. My perception of Welsh is that he is nowhere near the on field leader we need him to be. Coupling his “leadership” with an inability to kick more than 35m and lack of pace and I am really struggling to see Welsh as a premiership player.

Atkinson is someone I don’t have much time for. He is the wrong age and a massive work in progress. I’d prefer to see what Dyson does than start again with a player the same age. Disposal and decision making being no good at 25 leaves little room to move.

If Welsh is a list clogger because he isn’t going to be part of a flag then the same has to be said of Hank. If someone could name a player Hank’s size with the same inability to “play” the game but was part of any of the last 5 premiership sides it would be appreciated.


Probably cloggers (and I don’t like saying it):

Lonergan is competing with Hocking as they are both inside players with limited pace. Sam may be a better kick but he only plays half a game and is non-existent for the rest. I suppose that he could still make it with increased fitness but I’d want to know why he has started this year so slowly. As much as I love his hardness he just doesn’t do enough.

That Daniher could be clogging is not a comment on his abilities as much as it is a matter of balance. He is a long way behind Ryder, Pears, Hurley, Hooker, Gumbleton and Neagle in the first line of young KPPs. Still and Carlisle (who have two years on Danhier) seem to share the second line with him and arguably Carlisle has gone past Darcy. There have been really encouraging reports of Carlisle’s performances in the pre-season matches and in the twos. Does Daniher have the ability to reinvent himself as a NLM style utility with the ability to play small and have a run on ball?

Laycock has the rest of the year to show what he can do. He would be saved by 5 competitive games at AFL level (team balance makes it difficult to see him playing a lot of football). He should be second ruck behind Hille with Ryder being recast as a midfielder or half forward.
 

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Re: List Cloggers

Trade for picks in a weak draft sounds as good as its going to get.

I'd like to start with a recruitment plan that started with skills as top priority. We have too many poor users of the ball. If we could find 1-2 players even through the middle that could hit targets we might have a chance.

Ant555 did an excellent assessment over at BB that I couldn't really disagree with. Very negative and doesn't give a lot of hope that we could get anything for our players.

Poor recruitment and even poorer development has left us with a poor list not rated highly enough by opposition clubs to probably even trade for late picks. Don't know where to from here list rebuilding wise. My thoughts are to trade a KPP for a decent pick or midfielder and start from there..
 
Re: List Cloggers

rines said:
Trade for picks in a weak draft sounds as good as its going to get.

I'd like to start with a recruitment plan that started with skills as top priority. We have too many poor users of the ball. If we could find 1-2 players even through the middle that could hit targets we might have a chance.

Ant555 did an excellent assessment over at BB that I couldn't really disagree with. Very negative and doesn't give a lot of hope that we could get anything for our players.

Poor recruitment and even poorer development has left us with a poor list not rated highly enough by opposition clubs to probably even trade for late picks. Don't know where to from here list rebuilding wise. My thoughts are to trade a KPP for a decent pick or midfielder and start from there..
Click to expand...

I dont think that Ant555's assessment was as negative as you pointed out.

It was a comprehensive overview that covered players, game plan, coaching and conditioning and so forth.

I got the impression that Ant feels that there are probably 3 or 4 players that should be given extended periods in the seniors, to determine if they can become good AFL players.

Ant raised some pertinent points about kicking skills ( latest stats show that Essendon is running at 61% efficiency which is the second lowest in the AFL ) or the lack of - The problem as I see it is that only 50% of AFL players are routinely good kicks - I am certain that the pace of the game impacts on kicking efficiency.

I agree that it is imperative that we find at least another 2 mids with good kicking skills if we are to go forward.

As I have stated earlier - You need to give up something good to get something good in return ( It is rare that a nugget falls in your lap ) which suggests that one of the KP's needs to be traded.
 
Re: List Cloggers

I'd take Monfries at the Pies in an absolute heartbeat. Miles away from being a list clogger, he'd be best 22 in every team in the league ffs.
 
Re: List Cloggers

Yaco.. when I say negative, he basically puts our list in the bottom four. He doesn't seem to believe there are many A graders in the list (which I agree with).

If you read his notes JUST the player assessments.. (the rest fits into other threads) then there are more "nopes" than "yes" in there..

but feel free to ask anthony anytime about the state of our list.. he is pretty scathing :)
 
Re: List Cloggers

BrunoV said:
Very surprised by the inclusion of any players who are 22 or under and have not been give opportunities to perform at AFL level with peak fitness. Think of all of the rookies and mature aged recruits making currently making an impact in the AFL.

Not cloggers:

That so many are prepared to write off Myers knowing all we do about his body is quite amusing. I am a broken record on this but we need to give credit where it is due and the recruiting from 2007 – 2009 has been very
good. We have replaced the key backs and the forwards look promising. Zaharakis and Melksham are the other midfielders taken high in the draft, both have been very impressive and seem of really strong character. Knights backed Myers as a gun of the future last week so to write him of as a list clogger is premature.

The same can be said of Jetta. Reports of his performance at Bendigo in his first game back after becoming a father (and hopefully maturing as so many of his peers have) are very encouraging. 5 shots on goal and defensive pressure in the forward line are exactly what we need.

I may be looking at Dyson with rose coloured glasses in saying that his last 18 months has put him in our best 22. He is 25 with close to 100 games under his belt and the bulk of his improvement has come in the last year. Why abandon the wait now? Dyson is rated as one of the best kick in the league and moves well; he is a calm presence at half back and his contested work is better. Can he now add 3-5 kgs and become a real physical force? If it all happens he could actually be a gun.

Dyson had 14 possessions at 79% efficiency in round 1, 22 at 64% in round 2, 28 at 82% in round 3 and16 at 75% in rounds 4 and 5. The numbers don’t say as much as I’d hoped but they’re not terrible.

Why can’t Hocking be our Ling? He has similar physical dimensions and capabilities. He is a brute of a guy and gets the ball enough to show he understands the game. I am happier to see him run out for Essendon than McVeigh of 09/10 or Welsh. He is adding the small defender string to his bow and is no worse with the ball than many in our side.

Lovett-Murry is at least an insurance policy until Tyson Slattery can hold down a spot in the back line and Myers proves himself. He has his limitations but is ultimately an effective and versatile footballer. I would go as far as starting him in the square to provide some grunt and pace to help Watson get the ball going our way.

I am shocked that Monfries is being mentioned as a list clogger. There is no doubt that he will need to be reassigned with the rise to fitness of Gumbleton and the presence of genuine KPPs in the forward line now. Monfries is going to have to play as a "small" and/or take up the defensive half forward role in the forward line. Surely he should be given the chance, we are talking about a guy who plays all of his best fotball against quality opposition.

I don’t know anything about the rookies as players (Howlett being the exception and he has shown quite a bit). Bock is 19 and the judgement don’t start until he is 21 or 22. The reports on Cox’s first few years at the club are unbelievable given what he is capable of these days. I have mates 10 – 15cm shorter than Bock who started to fill out at 23 (Bock only just turned 20) so I am not sure what we expect of him. History says Bock will get 5 years and he probably should.


The cloggers:

Welsh was good against Geelong and can certainly do a role but he is either effectively tagging or horrible. My perception of Welsh is that he is nowhere near the on field leader we need him to be. Coupling his “leadership” with an inability to kick more than 35m and lack of pace and I am really struggling to see Welsh as a premiership player.

Atkinson is someone I don’t have much time for. He is the wrong age and a massive work in progress. I’d prefer to see what Dyson does than start again with a player the same age. Disposal and decision making being no good at 25 leaves little room to move.

If Welsh is a list clogger because he isn’t going to be part of a flag then the same has to be said of Hank. If someone could name a player Hank’s size with the same inability to “play” the game but was part of any of the last 5 premiership sides it would be appreciated.


Probably cloggers (and I don’t like saying it):

Lonergan is competing with Hocking as they are both inside players with limited pace. Sam may be a better kick but he only plays half a game and is non-existent for the rest. I suppose that he could still make it with increased fitness but I’d want to know why he has started this year so slowly. As much as I love his hardness he just doesn’t do enough.

That Daniher could be clogging is not a comment on his abilities as much as it is a matter of balance. He is a long way behind Ryder, Pears, Hurley, Hooker, Gumbleton and Neagle in the first line of young KPPs. Still and Carlisle (who have two years on Danhier) seem to share the second line with him and arguably Carlisle has gone past Darcy. There have been really encouraging reports of Carlisle’s performances in the pre-season matches and in the twos. Does Daniher have the ability to reinvent himself as a NLM style utility with the ability to play small and have a run on ball?

Laycock has the rest of the year to show what he can do. He would be saved by 5 competitive games at AFL level (team balance makes it difficult to see him playing a lot of football). He should be second ruck behind Hille with Ryder being recast as a midfielder or half forward.
Click to expand...

This.

This is almost spot on, far more accurate than the OP.
A player under 22 can't be a list clogger, unless beyond a doubt they are not up to AFL.

A list clogger is a 24+ year old, who is only getting a game because of team deficiencies. Has no trade value, yet to delist would likely negatively effect the immediate impact of the team. These players are:

Welsh, H.Slattery, Lonergan, Atkinson.

Some insurance is required to cover injuries, which would justify the retention of players like:

Laycock, Lovett-Murray, Daniher, Hocking.

Let's not get carried away. Yes we have a handful of list cloggers, but for the next 3-4 years you can expect to see clubs with this problem, by increasing the comp by 2 teams, you are effectively taking 3-4 quality players away from every club. The talent pool is only so big, to dilute it further will reduce the total quality in each team. It is not clogging, if there is nothing to come in.
 
Re: List Cloggers

HFF_07 said:
Tell me what these two bring to the table then?
Click to expand...

Myers has been unlucky with injury and the like, so we can't really judge him yet. Has a banging kick on him though.

Monfries is one of the most underrated and best lead up small forwards in the comp. Only behind Ryan O'Keefe IMO. Very strong hands, good on the lead, efficient with his disposal and kicks goals.
 
Re: List Cloggers

rines said:
Trade for picks in a weak draft sounds as good as its going to get.

I'd like to start with a recruitment plan that started with skills as top priority. We have too many poor users of the ball. If we could find 1-2 players even through the middle that could hit targets we might have a chance.

Ant555 did an excellent assessment over at BB that I couldn't really disagree with. Very negative and doesn't give a lot of hope that we could get anything for our players.

Poor recruitment and even poorer development has left us with a poor list not rated highly enough by opposition clubs to probably even trade for late picks. Don't know where to from here list rebuilding wise. My thoughts are to trade a KPP for a decent pick or midfielder and start from there..
Click to expand...

I agree with everything here Rines.

We have to many average ball users who are weak links in our side at the moment.

Last year was suppose to be a weak draft...

Look how that turned out to be.

Can you show us or even PM me Ant555's assesment of our list, be interested to see his assesment.

Ant last of all, totally agree that poor recruiting and poor development has well and truly let us down, hence our poor results in the past few years. We need to rebuild from here, and this is to cut our ties, even with a 'decent player worth something' who is not going to be apart of our next premiership side, we need to get some decent draft picks, and use them wisely (pointing the finger fair and squarely at our recruiting department).

I agree, we seem to have a plethora of talls at the moment, we could trade one of them and get something decent out of them..
 
Re: List Cloggers

HFF_07 said:
OK, let me re - define "list clogger"

A player who I feel, will not be apart of our next premiership tilt.
Click to expand...
So you classify Fletcher as a list clogger?

My definition of a list clogger is someone that doesn't contribute consistantly to the benefit of the football club. e.g Welsh
 
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