Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[faible]

Why do you need to be such an arseh*le?

Johnny Bananas made such an informed and honest post explaining a complex topic in such a good way.

And you reply with this sarcastic bullshit.

I didn’t take that as a sarcastic comment at all?

 

[the_interloper]

Why do you need to be such an arseh*le?

Johnny Bananas made such an informed and honest post explaining a complex topic in such a good way.

And you reply with this sarcastic bullshit.

What was sarcastic? That was a true story that happened in February.

 

[CM86]

I recently reported a work colleague for being sexist to another female colleague in front of a group of male customers. She brought us all in drinks and this wit says to her "thanks love". Now in isolation maybe it's not the worst thing but was in front of a group of blokes and he said it to demean her and make her feel like shit, so I told management and told the **** off privately too.

One of the other women in the office privately told me she didn't think it was that bad and that I might have overreacted. I tried to not disagree with her but outline the whole situation and why it was so bad and ultimately unprofessional in front of customers, we sort of agreed to disagree, was an awkward conversation tbh.

What was sarcastic? That was a true story that happened in February.

You've spent plenty of time pretending that sexism and discrimination is just non-existent in Australia any more.
That it's just a bs woke talking point to be laughed at.

You even pointed out in FEB and March how you were going to get pissed and troll at the Women's Day lunch.

Then you casually point out this made up story about how your workplace environment enables someone to think they can get away with bullying and sexism, and that you were the only one to call it out and address it, because of how normalised and accepted it is.


THEN... you had to explain to a woman why workplace bullying is a problem...

"thanks love". Now in isolation maybe it's not the worst thing but was in front of a group of blokes and he said it to demean her and make her feel like shit

You pointed out that his loose language wasn't the problem.
That you knew he deliberately harassed her due to whatever other knowledge you had of him and the situation.




But this woman you had to explain it to, just couldn't get her head around bullying or harassment.
Women just don't think like men, hey!

Then everyone clapped.



And on the back of that, you wanted to go and troll the women's day lunch after this incident. Because it's just some woke bs about inequality in the workplace!



It's so blatantly obvious, I shouldn't need to explain this shit.
I don't know why anyone still gives you the benefit of the doubt, same with 'just kidders' like FK.



This thread is a sewer of trans hate hidden behind careful wording and feigned ignorance. And people should be treated with the contempt they deserve.

 

[CM86]

I didn’t take that as a sarcastic comment at all?

Fair enough.

I've tried to explain my position a bit anyway.

Sorry I've previously lumped you in with the dishonest posters. It's hard not to group people sometimes.

I'm going to try and avoid posting for a bit, unless it's about a topic. Because I'm mostly posting about others these days.

 

[the_interloper]

View attachment 2024552


You've spent plenty of time pretending that sexism and discrimination is just non-existent in Australia any more.
That it's just a bs woke talking point to be laughed at.

You even pointed out in FEB and March how you were going to get pissed and troll at the Women's Day lunch.

Then you casually point out this made up story about how your workplace environment enables someone to think they can get away with bullying and sexism, and that you were the only one to call it out and address it, because of how normalised and accepted it is.


THEN... you had to explain to a woman why workplace bullying is a problem...


You pointed out that his loose language wasn't the problem.
That you knew he deliberately harassed her due to whatever other knowledge you had of him and the situation.




But this woman you had to explain it to, just couldn't get her head around bullying or harassment.
Women just don't think like men, hey!

Then everyone clapped.



And on the back of that, you wanted to go and troll the women's day lunch after this incident. Because it's just some woke bs about inequality in the workplace!



It's so blatantly obvious, I shouldn't need to explain this shit.
I don't know why anyone still gives you the benefit of the doubt, same with 'just kidders' like FK.



This thread is a sewer of trans hate hidden behind careful wording and feigned ignorance. And people should be treated with the contempt they deserve.

Far out man you really can't recognise a joke can you? At the Women's day lunch I sat there politely, shut the **** up and listened in actual fact.

The rest of this unhinged post, yeah I don't know man, not sure how to respond.

Fair enough.

I've tried to explain my position a bit anyway.

Sorry I've previously lumped you in with the dishonest posters. It's hard not to group people sometimes.

I'm going to try and avoid posting for a bit, unless it's about a topic. Because I'm mostly posting about others these days.

I think that's smart, not sure you're able to handle the discourse in here.

 

[Chief]

I meant that in the sense that a child can say "I am x gender now and my new name is such-and-such" with the confidence that this is the best thing for them. As if they know this is right.

This just looks like an attitude that treats children as blank slates. Ignoring that they are individual humans.

Going from your description there to reassignment surgery is not just ticking some boxes. It takes years, if the person decides to do it at all.

The panic over this is entirely unjustified. Concern about getting good data as a way to help people the best way we can is the right path.

Ditching gender affirming care for conversion therapy is not supported by the data.

 

[Chief]

Looks like a fun party

I think you can get free tickets to the next one on their web site - I think the URL is something like "Lemon Party"... ? Just Google it.

 

[ShanDog]

This just looks like an attitude that treats children as blank slates. Ignoring that they are individual humans.

Going from your description there to reassignment surgery is not just ticking some boxes. It takes years, if the person decides to do it at all.

The panic over this is entirely unjustified. Concern about getting good data as a way to help people the best way we can is the right path.

Ditching gender affirming care for conversion therapy is not supported by the data.

Kids are absolutely not blank slates. It's one of the stupidest ideas people have pushed about child development. Not sure why that relates to what I said.

Neither am I suggesting there's immediate surgery happening days after a kid walks into a school counsellor office and says "I feel different". I'm saying the response should not be an automatic and default policy of affirmation of them having a different gender.

 

[Chief]

Kids are absolutely not blank slates. It's one of the stupidest ideas people have pushed about child development. Not sure why that relates to what I said.

You said a boy could not possibly know that wearing a dress and calling himself Sue is right for him.

Of course he could. And it's utterly harmless.

 

[faible]

You said a boy could not possibly know that wearing a dress and calling himself Sue is right for him.

Of course he could. And it's utterly harmless.

We make up names for kids, why not let them choose their own that they actually like.

 

[ShanDog]

You said a boy could not possibly know that wearing a dress and calling himself Sue is right for him.

Of course he could. And it's utterly harmless.

They could - of course. I've already mentioned a couple of students I worked with who were this same situation. But it's also very clear that not right for all of them

 

[Gruffles]

You said a boy could not possibly know that wearing a dress and calling himself Sue is right for him.

Of course he could. And it's utterly harmless.

I think the point that ShanDog is making here is one associated with the old nature v nurture thoughts around development. I read their discussion as whether there should be affirmation around a child potentially just role-playing, which may point them in a direction that actually does not actually coincide with their nature.

Of course, the difference between a role-playing phase and actual development could be quite nuanced and present differently at different stages of development, but I would be hopeful that those that know the child best would be able to know the difference.

Of course, I might have totally misinterpreted everything too!

 

[Chief]

They could - of course. I've already mentioned a couple of students I worked with who were this same situation. But it's also very clear that not right for all of them

Then they will work that out.

Back to my thought earlier - some people seem to say let kids be kids, let them do dangerous things, fail and succeed... until they come out as LGBT when it's just not right for a person of that age to make that choice and they need therapy to put a stop to it.

It's not like people don't get a lot of professional support and guidance before they can transition fully anyway, is it? I'm just going off what friends have said about their daughter.

 

[ShanDog]

Then they will work that out.

Back to my thought earlier - some people seem to say let kids be kids, let them do dangerous things, fail and succeed... until they come out as LGBT when it's just not right for a person of that age to make that choice and they need therapy to put a stop to it.

It's not like people don't get a lot of professional support and guidance before they can transition fully anyway, is it? I'm just going off what friends have said about their daughter.

I'm going off what I have seen of numerous students while teaching at a high school for four years.

When it's a not a notable thing for you to get emails advising that such-and-such year 7 student is now known by a new name, gender and pronouns that we all must use (except not to the parents because we're hiding it from them - another significant issue), and it's almost always with kids already flagged has having special needs, there should be another kind of flag raised. You would expect it to be a rare occurrence, and in any other circumstances, seeing a significant over-representation of kids going through something significant like this, you'd raise it with bosses etc and say, "Hey, what's going on here? This can't be right." But we don't, and people accuse you of being transphobic if you do. Who's really most concerned about the welfare of the kids in this situation - person who says they think there's something odd happening, or the one who says we should just believe all kids even to the extent of hiding it from their own parents?

 

[ShanDog]

And to clarify, there's obviously a whole lot of water to pass under the bridge from when a kid expresses gender incongruence and a full transition happening with medical intervention. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of quackery support by very unqualified people in a school setting that is effectively just reinforcing the idea to the kid that they are trans, setting them along that pathway. The professional support and psychological assessments and treatments are usually a ways down that path and by then it's quite well entrenched with some of these kids.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

And to clarify, there's obviously a whole lot of water to pass under the bridge from when a kid expresses gender incongruence and a full transition happening with medical intervention. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of quackery support by very unqualified people in a school setting that is effectively just reinforcing the idea to the kid that they are trans, setting them along that pathway. The professional support and psychological assessments and treatments are usually a ways down that path and by then it's quite well entrenched with some of these kids.

And kids get a lot of unqualified “advice” and encouragement from anonymous Tik Tok and other SM contributors. They are often coached by these people on what to say to doctors, teachers, counsellors, and how to keep it from their parents.

Another reason for banning smartphones for under 16s.

The past decade has seen a huge increase in anxiety, depression and mental ill-health in young people, who are at a vulnerable stage in their lives. Bullying, extortion, unrealistic body and facial images that no one can live up to, eating disorders, are out of control.

“The Anxious Generation” by Jonathan Haidt is an important book that encompasses these issues and his warnings should be heeded.

Abigail Shrier’s book Irreversible Damage also describes the harm being done to young people. She suffered a big backlash when it was first published but people are now taking notice.
It’s encouraging to hear that the negative effects of smartphone usage by children and young teens are now being discussed but more action is needed.

 

[CM86]

My personal opinion is that Rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) is baseless, unscientific bullshit and that people like Shrier who promote it are transphobes, and promote hate towards transgenderism.


I want a society where LGBTQ+ people are not only accepted but feel that they are a part of.
This isn't what everyone wants. And majorities will win out.

I'll just ensure that I do the best I can for the people in my life, and let our society play out as it will.

 

[Chief]

Who's really most concerned about the welfare of the kids in this situation - person who says they think there's something odd happening, or the one who says we should just believe all kids even to the extent of hiding it from their own parents?

How many kids are in this boat?

 

[ShanDog]

How many kids are in this boat?

Reckon anywhere from a quarter to half the students that I knew

 

[ShanDog]

My personal opinion is that Rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) is baseless, unscientific bullshit and that people like Shrier who promote it are transphobes, and promote hate towards transgenderism.


I want a society where LGBTQ+ people are not only accepted but feel that they are a part of.
This isn't what everyone wants. And majorities will win out.

I'll just ensure that I do the best I can for the people in my life, and let our society play out as it will.

I get that ROGD is just an idea not backed up by any clinical studies (much like treatment protocols for trans kids as we have now found out, amiright kekeke ), but surely there has to be something to the idea.

In the last few years there was a MASSIVE uptick in the number of kids who decided they had Tourette's Syndrome because it became popular online. Similarly, we had a surge in popularity of multiple personality disorder (which is actually just bullshit and doesn't exist, at least not how people claim it does) because, once again, it became very popular is certain corners of the internet.

Pre-internet there were plenty of examples like this too, such as everything that went down in the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, and also the repressed memories popularity around the same time.

There's a reason that kids across multiple generations all get told the same thing - beware of peer pressure. We all heard, "If Johnny jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?" from our parents and I've said it to my own kids. They'll say it to theirs (though the most popular name might not be Johnny anymore, but something like Jayontay).

Kids. Are. Easily. Influenced. They regularly adopt fads as the wind changes in order to fit in or alternatively, stand out. That has never, ever, EVER, been disputed. Yet TRAs vehemently push back on the idea of ROGD as impossible.

I'm not saying it certainly true or to what extent it may explain cases, but I'm absolutely certain that calling it impossible is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

 

[Engimal v3]

In the last few years there was a MASSIVE uptick in the number of kids who decided they had Tourette's Syndrome because it became popular online. Similarly, we had a surge in popularity of multiple personality disorder (which is actually just bullshit and doesn't exist, at least not how people claim it does) because, once again, it became very popular is certain corners of the internet.

My dad used to go off his ****in head at me, telling to to "stop shaking your head" and "stop making those stupid noises".

Only later in life would I come to understand what tics and stimming were.

Back in the day, you were either normal or a spaz. It doesn't matter if you had vocal tics or you had cerebral palsy - all those sorts were just "spazzes". I feel that the growth in diagnoses is not based on trendiness, but rather a better understanding of brain-related conditions amongst the general public as the science has become more clear.

 

[Engimal v3]

On topic, my only real grievance with calling trans women "women" is that it makes it much harder for me to find T pr0n.

 

[ShanDog]

My dad used to go off his ****in head at me, telling to to "stop shaking your head" and "stop making those stupid noises".

Only later in life would I come to understand what tics and swimming were.

Back in the day, you were either normal or a spaz. It doesn't matter if you had vocal tics or you had cerebral palsy - all those sorts were just "spazzes". I feel that the growth in diagnoses is not based on trendiness, but rather a better understanding of brain-related conditions amongst the general public as the science has become more clear.

Nah, sorry. You've missed an online thing where kids who most definitely do not have any Tourette's decided they did for clout.

Of course that's not to take away from you getting a proper diagnosis

 

[CM86]

I get that ROGD is just an idea not backed up by any clinical studies (much like treatment protocols for trans kids as we have now found out, amiright kekeke ), but surely there has to be something to the idea.

In the last few years there was a MASSIVE uptick in the number of kids who decided they had Tourette's Syndrome because it became popular online. Similarly, we had a surge in popularity of multiple personality disorder (which is actually just bullshit and doesn't exist, at least not how people claim it does) because, once again, it became very popular is certain corners of the internet.

Pre-internet there were plenty of examples like this too, such as everything that went down in the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, and also the repressed memories popularity around the same time.

There's a reason that kids across multiple generations all get told the same thing - beware of peer pressure. We all heard, "If Johnny jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?" from our parents and I've said it to my own kids. They'll say it to theirs (though the most popular name might not be Johnny anymore, but something like Jayontay).

Kids. Are. Easily. Influenced. They regularly adopt fads as the wind changes in order to fit in or alternatively, stand out. That has never, ever, EVER, been disputed. Yet TRAs vehemently push back on the idea of ROGD as impossible.

I'm not saying it certainly true or to what extent it may explain cases, but I'm absolutely certain that calling it impossible is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Maybe you're right.
I might be completely out of touch.

I thought that kids still get bullied and bashed for being 'gay' in Australian schools.
That there is active hate movements across Australia demonising LGBTQ+, transgenderism in particular.

But if we are so progressive and accepting that up to half of Australian students are coming out as transgender, and it's being hidden from the parents. Then clearly this is an issue that is out of control.


While I'm very happy to hear that we have such accepting and supportive LGBTQ+ schools and students.
I'm terrified at the concept that up to half of the students are being groomed, tricked, forced and manipulated into identifying as transgender.
This is dangerous and needs to be stopped.

If it means banning all forms of acceptance in advertising, media and curriculum I'll have to support it. Because if up to half of your students are identifying as transgender and special needs something is doing them harm.


I'm not being sarcastic.

 

[ShanDog]

Maybe you're right.
I might be completely out of touch.

I thought that kids still get bullied and bashed for being 'gay' in Australian schools.
That there is active hate movements across Australia demonising LGBTQ+, transgenderism in particular.

But if we are so progressive and accepting that up to half of Australian students are coming out as transgender, and it's being hidden from the parents. Then clearly this is an issue that is out of control.


While I'm very happy to hear that we have such accepting and supportive LGBTQ+ schools and students.
I'm terrified at the concept that up to half of the students are being groomed, tricked, forced and manipulated into identifying as transgender.
This is dangerous and needs to be stopped.

If it means banning all forms of acceptance in advertising, media and curriculum I'll have to support it. Because if up to half of your students are identifying as transgender and special needs something is doing them harm.


I'm not being sarcastic.

Might not have been clear but it's not half the kids in the school becoming trans. I was saying that somewhere up to half of the trans kids were asking for it to be kept from their parents, which schools in SA basically must do if the student asks them. The school also must respect the decision of the student and all teachers have to use their new name and/or pronoun. So basically - whatever the kid says, goes.

On the other acceptance thing, other kids are absolutely more accepting of gay and lesbian kids. Nobody cares if you are gay or a lesbian anymore. The majority of kids are also supportive (or perhaps just don't care) about trans identities, though there's definitely more pushback against that.