Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[SnakeMan86]

Hasn't stopped them rolling back women's rights in America has it.

That 'group' whoever they are, are not the one's you're debating with here, so your accusations of anyone on here with rational debate is misdirected.

You obviously think most on here don't want trans people to exist, me included, yet my niece is trans, guess I don't want her to exist. < You know how ridiculous that sounds.

Again, those in 'power' to force this discrimination (whoever they are, and even if that is indeed intended) are not the one's you're debating with on these boards or Joe public in the street.

You obviously think anyone with rational argument like sports integrity in women's sport is used as a veil to discriminate, and immediately think they're deliberately supporting the 'powerful' coz they hate trans people.

And that's why I don't engage with you, because you immediately think the worst of people, society, and life in general, you can't help yourself.

Your reply was disappointing albeit expected, I'll cease my discussion with you.

But if you actually reach out to Jan and Joe, you'll find they're very accepting and willing to compromise for minority groups, broader society is very much supportive of those groups.

Just because they can't change / influence the attitudes of 'those in power' doesn't make Jan and Joe complicit in discrimination, which you're so willing to accuse other posters of on the back of their salient debate.

We're done here Gralin.

 

[Chief]

Again, those in 'power' to force this discrimination (whoever they are, and even if that is indeed intended) are not the one's you're debating with on these boards or Joe public in the street.

People vote for them.

You obviously think anyone with rational argument like sports integrity in women's sport is used as a veil to discriminate, and immediately think they're deliberately supporting the 'powerful' coz they hate trans people.

When they repeat the sell of the insidious bigots, they become a distribution channel for the hateful.

 

[Gralin]

Aren't you arguing the inverse though? Adults opinions are being influenced but kids are definitely not being influenced by their peers as they work through the pretty common adolescent issues of who am I, what am I, who am I attracted to?

Good question.
What I think I am arguing here is that there is a difference between influence of how you see yourself and influence of how you see the world.

Like both can clearly be influenced externally, body image is a great example of how your self view can be influenced by outside forces

And yes gender identity and representation is influenced every day by how everyone else presents and how the world presents things to you, but I think the reason conservatives are so afraid of kids finding out not everyone is cis and straight is because they don't want kids seeing that there are other options out there.

People that didn't feel right with what society was telling them they should be but didn't know why, you hear stories like that all the time from people who grew up in earlier decades, from people that were in really isolated home school situations with extremely religious parents.

I also think how much the outside can influence who you are with things like sexuality is very different to how your politics etc can be influenced by outside sources

People will argue gender identity is closer to politics than sexuality and I'm not suggesting there is anything sexual about gender identity, but not conforming with gender norms is also something that existed long before social media

Which is why I think its interesting that people argue they aren't influenced by outside noise on this topic but that the kids are

Also the constant framing of this as being kids ignores all the adults out there who are trans, who transition as adults, who have been around for way longer than social media

As an aside, someone I know is a sociology researcher with a teenage child, and they're finding it fascinating both how openly sexuality is discussed by said child and amongst their peers, and how keen to have some kind of label for their sexuality they seem to be. e.g. pansexual and such. This is at an age where they're not really old enough to be doing the sexual things (earlier teens, I'd guess like 13 / 14), so it's all theoretical.

I mean casting my mind back decades to when I was a teenager we talked a lot about things like that, its pretty normal to talk about stuff, what's discussed and whats acceptable or known is different to when I was there

but the general interest in the topic isn't anything new I wouldn't think

Might have something to do with pre-frontal cortex development. It would be a bit naïve to pretend that the developmental stage is not one where people may be more easily influenced than later in life.

Not having a go at you because the pre-frontal cortex stuff is obviously true, but I don't think older people are less susceptible to influence
Covid should show that if nothing else with the rise of antivax and other conspiracy movements and how many adults have gone down rabbit holes

Just to clarify, I'm not saying here that kids are being influenced TO BE trans. But they may be more likely to be indirectly influenced to consider it, or role-play it, or whatever, without actually feeling that in the long term.

Someone asking to be called by a different name, wearing different clothes, trying a different hair style, experimenting with makeup etc is pretty normal

you can do all of that without changing your gender identity at all and kids and teens do it all the time, as do adults

my issue here is that when it comes to the idea of being trans, there is a real focus among the conservatives that have an isuse with trans people towards kids and the idea that kids can't have any autonomy or understanding of themselves and therefor should not be allowed to have any say in who they are or how they live

its all about this rigid binary of what a boy and a girl or a man and a woman is and that everyone must fit in the correct box as far as they are concerned

 

[Gruffles]

Not having a go at you because the pre-frontal cortex stuff is obviously true, but I don't think older people are less susceptible to influence
Covid should show that if nothing else with the rise of antivax and other conspiracy movements and how many adults have gone down rabbit holes

I'm not denying that adults aren't susceptible to influence at all (and yes... there is heaps of evidence of out there!). I would argue that from a generalistic viewpoint, most children would be susceptible to influence, whereas some adults would be susceptible to influence. My view would be that the level susceptibility would relate to critical thinking ability (which is linked to pre-frontal cortex development) and the feeling of 'belonging' to something.

Someone asking to be called by a different name, wearing different clothes, trying a different hair style, experimenting with makeup etc is pretty normal

you can do all of that without changing your gender identity at all and kids and teens do it all the time, as do adults

my issue here is that when it comes to the idea of being trans, there is a real focus among the conservatives that have an isuse with trans people towards kids and the idea that kids can't have any autonomy or understanding of themselves and therefor should not be allowed to have any say in who they are or how they live

its all about this rigid binary of what a boy and a girl or a man and a woman is and that everyone must fit in the correct box as far as they are concerned

I agree with all of this! However, I can also understand the alternative viewpoint of being somewhat cautious of providing gender affirming care during those times where children may be experimenting. I think there is a fine line between supporting someone as they work out who they are and inadvertently influencing them to become who they are not, and this needs to be carefully tread. It's really challenging. Of course, there are going to be people who peddle their own beliefs onto this and that is horrible, but I don't at all think that everyone who is struggling to navigate this issue can be pigeon holed with those people.

 

[Gough]

I'm not denying that adults aren't susceptible to influence at all (and yes... there is heaps of evidence of out there!). I would argue that from a generalistic viewpoint, most children would be susceptible to influence, whereas some adults would be susceptible to influence. My view would be that the level susceptibility would relate to critical thinking ability (which is linked to pre-frontal cortex development) and the feeling of 'belonging' to something.


I agree with all of this! However, I can also understand the alternative viewpoint of being somewhat cautious of providing gender affirming care during those times where children may be experimenting. I think there is a fine line between supporting someone as they work out who they are and inadvertently influencing them to become who they are not, and this needs to be carefully tread. It's really challenging. Of course, there are going to be people who peddle their own beliefs onto this and that is horrible, but I don't at all think that everyone who is struggling to navigate this issue can be pigeon holed with those people.

How on earth did all the gay people cope at high school through the years being bombarded with breeder propaganda? Sure, some might have been tempted to experiment with wearing with wearing badly fitted, mismatched clothes and walking funny but it made no difference to the vast majority of people. Why do you think being trans is so attractive to these kids that they're unable to resist it's lure?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I'm not denying that adults aren't susceptible to influence at all (and yes... there is heaps of evidence of out there!). I would argue that from a generalistic viewpoint, most children would be susceptible to influence, whereas some adults would be susceptible to influence. My view would be that the level susceptibility would relate to critical thinking ability (which is linked to pre-frontal cortex development) and the feeling of 'belonging' to something.


I agree with all of this! However, I can also understand the alternative viewpoint of being somewhat cautious of providing gender affirming care during those times where children may be experimenting. I think there is a fine line between supporting someone as they work out who they are and inadvertently influencing them to become who they are not, and this needs to be carefully tread. It's really challenging. Of course, there are going to be people who peddle their own beliefs onto this and that is horrible, but I don't at all think that everyone who is struggling to navigate this issue can be pigeon holed with those people.

How did most of us survive the well funded religious indoctrination that has been happening in schools for decades?

Do you think the anti-trans stuff we’re seeing now is part of that same religious psyop?

 

[Gralin]

I'm not denying that adults aren't susceptible to influence at all (and yes... there is heaps of evidence of out there!). I would argue that from a generalistic viewpoint, most children would be susceptible to influence, whereas some adults would be susceptible to influence. My view would be that the level susceptibility would relate to critical thinking ability (which is linked to pre-frontal cortex development) and the feeling of 'belonging' to something.

Everyone is susceptible to influence, its a question of to what level and to what sorts of things, but there is no such thing as a person that isn't susceptible.

Fear is a particularly good tool for this

I agree with all of this! However, I can also understand the alternative viewpoint of being somewhat cautious of providing gender affirming care during those times where children may be experimenting. I think there is a fine line between supporting someone as they work out who they are and inadvertently influencing them to become who they are not, and this needs to be carefully tread. It's really challenging. Of course, there are going to be people who peddle their own beliefs onto this and that is horrible, but I don't at all think that everyone who is struggling to navigate this issue can be pigeon holed with those people.

Again this comes down to what people mean by gender affirming care though, its not one thing.

We affirm gender everyday in all sorts of situations, we don't even consciously think about it most of the time.

People laughed at my post earlier that a doctor using your preferred pronouns was gender affirming care, but it is and we've had incidents in Australia recently of a doctor who refused to do this facing disciplinary action and that was something the anti trans people (who she was one of) lapped up and used to prove there was a crusade to force kids to transition (rather than a requirement for doctors to treat their patients with respect)

There's a difference between struggling to understand why a kid or adult thinks they are trans and thinking that being supportive of them will make them be trans when they never were

It's like suggesting that talking about gay people existing will turn people gay

We've got decades of testimony from gay people who went to conversion camps, who tried to fit in, who tried to be straight because everyone told them it was just a phase or they were confused etc

Have we had an epidemic of gay people like the conservatives claimed?

No, and we still have gay people today not comfortable with being out and at risk of violence or homelessness if they do come out.

Yet the exact same arguments get rolled out again for trans people and we end up having the same debates we've already had about gay people, except what that, oh we're staring to have the same debates about gay people again, because the people that lost that argument haven't given up and moved on, same as they haven't given up and moved on from wanting to ban abortion or remove women's rights to vote or anything else that changed that they don't like

 

[Gruffles]

How on earth did all the gay people cope at high school through the years being bombarded with breeder propaganda? Sure, some might have been tempted to experiment with wearing with wearing badly fitted, mismatched clothes and walking funny but it made no difference to the vast majority of people. Why do you think being trans is so attractive to these kids that they're unable to resist it's lure?

If someone is trans, then they're trans. Alternative propaganda won't change that, but it won't make it easy for them to journey through their discovery, which is what I imagine life was like for gay people at high school through the years.

I do feel that the rise of social media and the algorithm driven internet has really screwed us around though and that's where people go for their information. The sheer amount of information that gets thrown at you if you investigate something once/twice is just insane, and what you then see generally becomes targeted to support what you looked for. It's also what I associate the rise in anti-vax sentiments, etc.

I don't know if I explained that well but I hope it makes some sort of sense. To clarify, I don't think there's an issue of non-trans kids being influenced to become trans kids, but what I am saying is that I can understand someone's initial concern around it.

 

[Gruffles]

How did most of us survive the well funded religious indoctrination that has been happening in schools for decades?

Do you think the anti-trans stuff we’re seeing now is part of that same religious psyop?

See my response to Gough above for the first question.

I think there is a fair amount of religious influence happening in a lot of things... and that sucks.

 

[SnakeMan86]

How on earth did all the gay people cope at high school through the years being bombarded with breeder propaganda? Sure, some might have been tempted to experiment with wearing with wearing badly fitted, mismatched clothes and walking funny but it made no difference to the vast majority of people. Why do you think being trans is so attractive to these kids that they're unable to resist it's lure?

Devils advocate would say social media.

The need for acceptance is a huge influence on a teenagers well-being. Whilst in a previous era, being different (gay as an example) would have seen you ostracised... we are now seeing in the inverse. (Which is a good thing before i get critisiced)

Social media algorithms influence the above. If I look at the comments section of a lego build on insta. When I reopen that app, I will be flooded with 10-15 posts and reels on lego builds from pages I don't follow.

So, if your a teen, struggling for acceptance, click on a post, or link or whatever it is highlighting someone using different pronouns, or even changing gender, it has X amount of likes and comments, and then their feeds are flooded by posts similar, it's not hard to fathom than a fallible 12 year old thinking this is what I can do to be accepted. Because look at aaalll these examples (when in reality its just a vacuum into your feed)

Teens spend more time on social media these days than socialising... that world becomes thier reality. Especially when they are unpopular

 

[SnakeMan86]

If someone is trans, then they're trans. Alternative propaganda won't change that, but it won't make it easy for them to journey through their discovery, which is what I imagine life was like for gay people at high school through the years.

I do feel that the rise of social media and the algorithm driven internet has really screwed us around though and that's where people go for their information. The sheer amount of information that gets thrown at you if you investigate something once/twice is just insane, and what you then see generally becomes targeted to support what you looked for. It's also what I associate the rise in anti-vax sentiments, etc.

I don't know if I explained that well but I hope it makes some sort of sense. To clarify, I don't think there's an issue of non-trans kids being influenced to become trans kids, but what I am saying is that I can understand someone's initial concern around it.

Beat me to it by 1min lol

 

[Gough]

Devils advocate would say social media.

The need for acceptance is a huge influence on a teenagers well-being. Whilst in a previous era, being different (gay as an example) would have seen you ostracised... we are now seeing in the inverse. (Which is a good thing before i get critisiced)

Social media algorithms influence the above. If I look at the comments section of a lego build on insta. When I reopen that app, I will be flooded with 10-15 posts and reels on lego builds from pages I don't follow.

So, if your a teen, struggling for acceptance, click on a post, or link or whatever it is highlighting someone using different pronouns, or even changing gender, it has X amount of likes and comments, and then their feeds are flooded by posts similar, it's not hard to fathom than a fallible 12 year old thinking this is what I can do to be accepted. Because look at aaalll these examples (when in reality its just a vacuum into your feed)

With the amount of hate directed towards trans people on social media I find it very difficult to believe that being transgender would look attractive to anyone.

 

[Gruffles]

Everyone is susceptible to influence, its a question of to what level and to what sorts of things, but there is no such thing as a person that isn't susceptible.

Fear is a particularly good tool for this

Absolutely, my language was probably too definitive. But yes, everyone is susceptible to influence. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the ease of having that influence is different (particularly between adults and children).

Again this comes down to what people mean by gender affirming care though, its not one thing.

We affirm gender everyday in all sorts of situations, we don't even consciously think about it most of the time.

People laughed at my post earlier that a doctor using your preferred pronouns was gender affirming care, but it is and we've had incidents in Australia recently of a doctor who refused to do this facing disciplinary action and that was something the anti trans people (who she was one of) lapped up and used to prove there was a crusade to force kids to transition (rather than a requirement for doctors to treat their patients with respect)

There's a difference between struggling to understand why a kid or adult thinks they are trans and thinking that being supportive of them will make them be trans when they never were

It's like suggesting that talking about gay people existing will turn people gay

We've got decades of testimony from gay people who went to conversion camps, who tried to fit in, who tried to be straight because everyone told them it was just a phase or they were confused etc

Have we had an epidemic of gay people like the conservatives claimed?

No, and we still have gay people today not comfortable with being out and at risk of violence or homelessness if they do come out.

Yet the exact same arguments get rolled out again for trans people and we end up having the same debates we've already had about gay people, except what that, oh we're staring to have the same debates about gay people again, because the people that lost that argument haven't given up and moved on, same as they haven't given up and moved on from wanting to ban abortion or remove women's rights to vote or anything else that changed that they don't like

I think we are agreeing on most things but differ in what specifics we are actually talking about. It is important to completely understand gender affirming care, which I think we'd all probably have differing levels of understanding of.

I absolutely don't think that talking about trans people will make people trans. There's a difference between talking about something and affirming something though. Education is important and if we don't talk about it, then there's no education around it. Let people explore things, and once they've come to a decision, then be the affirmation for them.

The anti-trans stuff is horrendous and I don't agree with that at all.

 

[SnakeMan86]

With the amount of hate directed towards trans people on social media I find it very difficult to believe that being transgender would look attractive to anyone.

That's the thing with Instagram algorithms though now, your flooded with whatever you lead your bias towards.

 

[Gruffles]

With the amount of hate directed towards trans people on social media I find it very difficult to believe that being transgender would look attractive to anyone.

This is where the algorithm comes in. If you are looking for that, then you find that. If you aren't, then you don't

 

[faible]

With the amount of hate directed towards trans people on social media I find it very difficult to believe that being transgender would look attractive to anyone.

I suspect the social media you come across is pretty different to what young kids are seeing. Unless someone has kids / work with teenagers we probably don't see the same things.

 

[Gralin]

Absolutely, my language was probably too definitive. But yes, everyone is susceptible to influence. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the ease of having that influence is different (particularly between adults and children).


I think we are agreeing on most things but differ in what specifics we are actually talking about. It is important to completely understand gender affirming care, which I think we'd all probably have differing levels of understanding of.

I absolutely don't think that talking about trans people will make people trans. There's a difference between talking about something and affirming something though. Education is important and if we don't talk about it, then there's no education around it. Let people explore things, and once they've come to a decision, then be the affirmation for them.

The anti-trans stuff is horrendous and I don't agree with that at all.

I agree education is important

There is backlash against education with the idea that teaching people about something is indoctrination

There is backlash against specialized care and treatment as forced transing


Could you expand on the bold because to me if a kid says I would like to be called xx or use these pronouns that sounds like a decision and we've got people in here arguing that affirming that is going to influence kids to be trans.

My understanding of what people who go to the gender services would go through would be a lot of discussion and exploration with people with qualification in child psychology and pediatrics etc to really work that stuff out, but that during that process they would still refer to them how the ask to be referred to, which seems to be something that some have an issue with

 

[CM86]

Trans and gender diverse people at risk of violence, NSW LGBT inquiry hears​

By Jamie McKinnell
Posted Thu 24 Nov 2022


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11...s-gender-diverse-risk-more-violence/101693554

‘Our lives are under attack’: one in two trans Australians have experienced hate, report reveals​

This article is more than 9 months old
Data from the Trans Justice Project and the Victorian Pride Lobby also shows anti-trans hatred has increased over the last three years

https://www.theguardian.com/society...tralians-have-experienced-hate-report-reveals

Two arrested as mob sets upon protesters outside Mark Latham event in Sydney​

Rainbow rights group says peaceful protesters were set upon outside a Catholic church in Belfield

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...activists-outside-mark-latham-event-in-sydney

 

[Gralin]

That's the thing with Instagram algorithms though now, your flooded with whatever you lead your bias towards.

Not exactly how the algo works
Studies have shown how the algos have biases but also how stuff get promoted by paying definitely muddies things further

I suspect the social media you come across is pretty different to what young kids are seeing. Unless someone has kids / work with teenagers we probably don't see the same things.

Yes but that doesn't mean they don't see bigotry or hate online

Andrew Tate is a pretty clear example of that among teen boys

 

[Carringbush2010]

Thing is the fundies get smart. They are disingenuous at every turn. They dress up their hateful ideologies as reasonable concerns, scientific even. They get coverage. They drip feed the poison because they know if they just said it, they'd be canned.

Then they get power and ram through all sorts of shit that people, too late, realise screws them over. Or, they even believe that the changes - new laws, regulations, repealing protections - are actually good for them.

Depends how good the sell is.

Yep, spot on.

 

[Carringbush2010]

People vote for them.

They could vote for the other, but as Gralin has pointed out, their vested interest is the same.

 

[SnakeMan86]

Not exactly how the algo works
Studies have shown how the algos have biases but also how stuff get promoted by paying definitely muddies things further

That is true moreso with posts, especially the ads, but reels that arent ads will just show you reel after reel of what the algorithm thinks you want to see.

 

[Chief]

That is true moreso with posts, especially the ads, but reels that arent ads will just show you reel after reel of what the algorithm thinks you want to see.

Yeah - you watch a video by one hatey nob to check on someone's claims and the thing goes mental thinking you want more and more. Takes a while to get them off your feeds.

I need to create a dud account to quarantine this garbage.

 

[Gruffles]

I agree education is important

There is backlash against education with the idea that teaching people about something is indoctrination

There is backlash against specialized care and treatment as forced transing

Yep, and that's stupidly frustrating!

Could you expand on the bold because to me if a kid says I would like to be called xx or use these pronouns that sounds like a decision and we've got people in here arguing that affirming that is going to influence kids to be trans.

Sure. This is what I meant when I said earlier that it's really challenging. Your example here is too simplistic for me. Rather, it's highly situational. For instance, if I hardly knew a kid, but had heard their name was x, but when I used this name they instead said it was y, then I'd have no reason to question that and I'd use y. I don't know what has led that kid to choose an alternate name, and it's not my place to know.

However, if tomorrow my daughter came up to me and said that their name was now Fred, I'd hesitate leaning into that too much and instead have a deeper conversation with her about why she wanted to be called Fred if it persisted past what I thought was normal role-playing time. I know my daughter really well, and this would be a huge surprise to me given how she has presented before this. SO, I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there are decisions that may a temporary exploration/imaginative moment, and there are ones that are long term/permanent. This is where the challenge comes in... how do we know which is which? There are so many variables attached to this. Does a 5 year old saying this have less sway than a 16 year old?

My understanding of what people who go to the gender services would go through would be a lot of discussion and exploration with people with qualification in child psychology and pediatrics etc to really work that stuff out, but that during that process they would still refer to them how the ask to be referred to, which seems to be something that some have an issue with

I don't quite understand why those people do have an issue with it (unless it's just them making judgments without any understanding at all... which of course happens... annoyingly). The difference here is that these people are qualified in child psychology/paediatrics... teachers are not (I'm using them as an example as school situations pop up a lot in these discussions... and I am one). It's really difficult ground for teachers to tread. Are we doing the right thing? Are we saying the right things? Could this lead to legal issues for us in the future? Should/shouldn't we be telling the parents? <--- ShanDog mentioned this before and I can confirm that it's happened for me as well where I had to withhold information from parents for a significant amount of time as to a decision their child had made.

It's a minefield.

 

[Gruffles]

Yeah - you watch a video by one hatey nob to check on someone's claims and the thing goes mental thinking you want more and more. Takes a while to get them off your feeds.

I need to create a dud account to quarantine this garbage.

It's crazy and scary! I actually had a student come and ask me how to get clear of right wing propaganda as they started recognising that they were parroting it at school and it was alienating them from their peers as the student was becoming bitter and angry. All because they were curious about all the craziness happening in the US at the time and googled it. Then they were force fed a stack of right wing propaganda for ages.