Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[CM86]

Bloodletting, lobotomies and using arsenic to treat colds were also once considered what's medically and professionally what's best for the patients. Are you so certain that gender affirming care isn't going to go the way of the old hysterectomy? Why? And which model exactly are we talking about?

Due to my experience knowing and interacting with actual transgender people.

I understand that some people think it's a phase or a fad, and that it's being pushed onto kids as a way to fit in etc.

I don't think it's reasonable to compare gender affirming care to crackpot medical-grifting.

 

[Gralin]

Due to my experience knowing and interacting with actual transgender people.

I understand that some people think it's a phase or a fad, and that it's being pushed onto kids as a way to fit in etc.

I don't think it's reasonable to compare gender affirming care to crackpot medical-grifting.

Shan thinks conversion therapy is good medical practice and gender affirming care is hocus pocus

It is what the Cass Review supports after all and it does avoid the pesky issue of you know, having to follow through on that idea of socially respecting trans peoples right to live their lives

You know, as long as they don't play sports or use public bathrooms or get treated by doctors or I guess exist

 

[ShanDog]

Because you're just being antagonistic for the sake of it

By bringing up something that is in one of the most significant reviews of the literature in recent years? Or because it's the equivalent of a sacred cow? At what point is it allowed to be discussed?

 

[ShanDog]

Shan thinks conversion therapy is good medical practice and gender affirming care is hocus pocus

It is what the Cass Review supports after all and it does avoid the pesky issue of you know, having to follow through on that idea of socially respecting trans peoples right to live their lives

You know, as long as they don't play sports or use public bathrooms or get treated by doctors or I guess exist

Oh yeah, and I'M the one being antagonistic!

 

[ShanDog]

I don't think it's reasonable to compare gender affirming care to crackpot medical-grifting.

The comparison relates to the lack of significant evidence to support why those processes were considered best practices. It's a fair, if extreme, comparison. But that's the point.

 

[Gralin]

Oh yeah, and I'M the one being antagonistic!

See you can recognise it

The comparison relates to the lack of significant evidence to support why those processes were considered best practices. It's a fair, if extreme, comparison. But that's the point.

But it doesn't stop you from talking complete horseshit

I dismiss your idea of fair

 

[ShanDog]

Shan thinks conversion therapy is good medical practice and gender affirming care is hocus pocus

It is what the Cass Review supports after all and it does avoid the pesky issue of you know, having to follow through on that idea of socially respecting trans peoples right to live their lives

You know, as long as they don't play sports or use public bathrooms or get treated by doctors or I guess exist

Oh and just for those playing at home, none of what Gralin says here about me is correct. It's just easier to put me in the box labelled transphobic than actually deal with the significant issues when you're so invested in being correct.

 

[ShanDog]

But it doesn't stop you from talking complete horseshit

I dismiss your idea of fair

So the Cass review didn't show an issue with the guideline development process lacking evidence and using just a couple of key documents to reference each other in circular ways to make it seem like there was? Is everything is there just bullshit? Four hundred pages of lies?

 

[Gralin]

So the Cass review didn't show an issue with the guideline development process lacking evidence and using just a couple of key documents to reference each other in circular ways to make it seem like there was? Is everything is there just bullshit? Four hundred pages of lies?

Yeah pretty much

Same as your idea of respecting trans people which you clearly have no intention of doing

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Poorly worded, I mean some women! #notallwomen

Good. Now that I've understood that...

Good luck with that, women certainly take a dim view generally of blokes disagreeing with them on women's issues.

As we know, women are not a hivemind, there are women on both sides of every issue.

There are women who believe that other women who have been r*ped are at fault for it, and sometimes use terms like "asking for it". I wouldn't call them the majority of women, but they definitely exist. If I disagree with them about that, that disagreement isn't mansplaining. It's an informed opinion that I gained from listening to many women and their experiences, and understanding that the idea of blaming the victim of a rape is rooted in historical sexism.

Likewise, I've listened to a lot of cis women who accept trans women as women. I've listened to them speak about the ugly behaviour they've endured at the hands of cis men (which seems common to most women, really), and how they don't fear trans women because they know that predatory cis men don't need to look like a woman to find the opportunity to engage in that ugly behaviour, they do it anyway while looking like men. I've also heard from cis women how trans women are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims than predators, and suffer a lot at the hands of predatory cis men, just as cis women do.

When I hear all that, and see how many cis women I know accept trans women as women, I don't feel like I'm mansplaining if I take the firm position that trans women are women. Because I'm using the words and attitudes of the women I know, not just my own. A woman hearing my position is certainly entitled to take a dim view, but they're equally entitled to take a dim view of cis women who accept trans women as women.

 

[ShanDog]

Yeah pretty much

Same as your idea of respecting trans people which you clearly have no intention of doing

Right, so you're not going to engage in good faith at all. Perhaps you should step away from the thread yourself.

In all likelihood, I'd have interacted with trans and gender non-conforming youths more than the vast majority of people on this thread getting so worked up about the issue, and not one single kid would say a negative thing about the relationship I had with them. In fact, there's a couple who absolutely loved having me as their teacher.

I'm able to be perfectly nice to everyone (because that's what they fundamentally deserve) while also being able to discuss what might be uncomfortable ideas. How terrible of me.

 

[Gralin]

Right, so you're not going to engage in good faith at all. Perhaps you should step away from the thread yourself.

In all likelihood, I'd have interacted with trans and gender non-conforming youths more than the vast majority of people on this thread getting so worked up about the issue, and not one single kid would say a negative thing about the relationship I had with them. In fact, there's a couple who absolutely loved having me as their teacher.

I'm able to be perfectly nice to everyone (because that's what they fundamentally deserve) while also being able to discuss what might be uncomfortable ideas. How terrible of me.

Yes I'm sure you don't say this stuff to their face which just makes you a hypocrite

 

[Gralin]

So sick of the politeness argument in conjunction with arguing against a group of peoples rights or freedoms

Queue Shan saying what rights and eye rolling while talking about engaging in bad faith

Politely being a campaigner is still being a campaigner

 

[ShanDog]

Yes I'm sure you don't say this stuff to their face which just makes you a hypocrite

Wanting the best for people and therefore not accepting everything at face value, particularly when actual reviews and studies demonstrate that we don't necessarily know what is best at the moment, super-duper means I hate trans people and not the complete opposite at all. Nope. Not. At. All.

You're the hypocrite.

 

[Gralin]

Wanting the best for people and therefore not accepting everything at face value, particularly when actual reviews and studies demonstrate that we don't necessarily know what is best at the moment, super-duper means I hate trans people and not the complete opposite at all. Nope. Not. At. All.

You're the hypocrite.

Ok

 

[the_interloper]

Good. Now that I've understood that...


As we know, women are not a hivemind, there are women on both sides of every issue.

There are women who believe that other women who have been r*ped are at fault for it, and sometimes use terms like "asking for it". I wouldn't call them the majority of women, but they definitely exist. If I disagree with them about that, that disagreement isn't mansplaining. It's an informed opinion that I gained from listening to many women and their experiences, and understanding that the idea of blaming the victim of a rape is rooted in historical sexism.

Likewise, I've listened to a lot of cis women who accept trans women as women. I've listened to them speak about the ugly behaviour they've endured at the hands of cis men (which seems common to most women, really), and how they don't fear trans women because they know that predatory cis men don't need to look like a woman to find the opportunity to engage in that ugly behaviour, they do it anyway while looking like men. I've also heard from cis women how trans women are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims than predators, and suffer a lot at the hands of predatory cis men, just as cis women do.

When I hear all that, and see how many cis women I know accept trans women as women, I don't feel like I'm mansplaining if I take the firm position that trans women are women. Because I'm using the words and attitudes of the women I know, not just my own. A woman hearing my position is certainly entitled to take a dim view, but they're equally entitled to take a dim view of cis women who accept trans women as women.

I don't disagree with basically anything you've said here, and certainly wouldn't have the level of understanding you appear to have.

I'm not sure of your demographic but if you're a white straight male (like myself) if you had a differing opinion to a woman on a topic like this it's pretty easy for them to call you out as being so and thus negating your opinion. I don't think this is reasonable but it's a hard one to come back from, and thus why I'd tend to nod along and say not much.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I don't disagree with basically anything you've said here, and certainly wouldn't have the level of understanding you appear to have.

I've been fortunate to have met a lot of different people, but meeting them is only half of it, listening to them and learning to ask the right questions to hear their insight is the other half.

I'm not sure of your demographic but if you're a white straight male (like myself) if you had a differing opinion to a woman on a topic like this it's pretty easy for them to call you out as being so and thus negating your opinion. I don't think this is reasonable but it's a hard one to come back from, and thus why I'd tend to nod along and say not much.

I'm a non-white bisexual cis male, but it's easy enough to pass as white online, and to pass as straight anywhere. I sympathise with your situation, as it can't be fun being dismissed out of hand like that. At the same time, I understand why women tend to do that, because most (if not all) of them have faced a lot of disrespect and belittlement, mostly from straight white men. That isn't your fault, but others have poisoned the well, just as they have for other things, like the fears and hangups some women have around dating men. I once dated a woman who had sworn to stay off cishet men forever because of how they'd treated her, and she only even gave me a chance because I'm bisexual.

I do think that for anything that involves the lived experience of others that we can't actually experience for ourselves, we are generally better off listening to those who have that experience. Not that those people will all agree either. I've certainly had vehement disagreements with other non-white people on the extent of racism in Australia, from both sides. I've found non-white people who claim there isn't any at all, and others who have blamed all their failings on racism when there are clearly other factors at play.

But perhaps when we've listened to enough of the lived experience of others, we can speak on a subject by repeating the consensus opinion of those we've listened to. For example, I once heard a speech by a man who was talking about the challenges of proper stance in high heels, not that he'd worn them himself enough to know, but because he'd listened to his wife and sister and friends enough to learn and understand. He asked the women in the room if they agreed with what he was saying, and they did.

It is hard if you're disagreeing with a woman and don't have another woman to back you up. I once expressed such a thought to a cis woman on the subject of the acceptance of trans women. That if I was facing off against a TERF, it's hard to speak against a woman on something relating to the subject of womanhood. Her response was to say that I wouldn't be mansplaining if I was simply repeating the feelings of her and other women like her. But that only works because I listened enough to begin with to understand what her feelings were and why she held them.

It's still a minefield, and I'd never call myself an authority on the subject, but that's how I navigate speaking on the acceptance of trans women as women, even if my audience includes cis women. Even then it's important for me to listen to lived experiences and perspectives I hadn't considered, so long as they're not coming from a place of pure intolerance or hatred like certain very prominent transphobes do.

 

[Gethelred]

Your last sentence doesn’t really make sense - you probably mean you arrive at “your” truth.

Funnily enough, I don't; the reason being...

You arrived at “your” truth via your undergraduate course, but is it everybody’s truth? Not mine.

Let’s agree to differ on “truth”, hey?

... liberal education and the scientific method - which are the cornerstones of modern education - are based on an objectivist philosophy. The point being, there are things which are objectively true; the degree to which they are true might be in flux - like gravity is a constant but the degree to which time progresses is subject to gravitational conditions - but there are aspects of reality that are always correct, on, true.

It's actually a bit of a pisser the degree to which you are holding true to the right wing trope of exploiting postmodern deconstruction of the notion of 'truth', when if ever someone else tried to bring up some Foucault you'd sneer at it.

To agree that 'your truth' exists is to allow for a subjective reality. It's not the subject of this thread so let's not belabour the point, but reality is not subjective even if humans are.

 

[Gethelred]

What research? The stuff the Cass review identified is very poor and not to be relied upon?

There's more than a few people disagreeing with the terms of the Cass review as it stands; Hilary Cass was not an expert in transitioning or gender based healthcare, and one wonders if the choice of her to do this - something she herself flags within the report - was a political one.

We'll see how subsequent science leads from here.

Sorry, that's all complete bullshit. It's all predicate on the idea that gender affirming care is actually good.

... which is why you're more than happy - elated, even - to have the reason to throw out a good 100ish years of dysphoria based research that the Cass report represents.

And as a schoolteacher you should know that just because someone says they want something, doesn't make it best for them. Be an adult.

Seeing as you've decided what being an adult actually is...

Being fully out as trans is an almost entirely new phenomenon in terms of the degree to which we're permitting it without violent repression these days. Let science and the scientific method do its work - actually do apolitical studies, not the bullshit funded at present by ideologues - and let's get on with it.

Part of growing up is questioning the deepest set notions of reality, as provided for you by your upbringing. You are, ostensibly, who your parents were with the minute differences of context.

Is it more adult to question or accept?

If you think that, you're very out of touch with the average person.

Argument ad populum.

This is fascinating but I don't see any relevance.

The entire notion of gender was invented by someone to enshrine the men/woman binary because he didn't like how biology wasn't adhering to his idea of definitive - religion based - differences between the sexes. We're one of the least sexually dimorphous species on the planet.

It's actually pretty funny, how insistent we are on categories as group.

I completely reject this notion while pointing and laughing at you Nelson-style for having the temerity to say it.

Cool.

Remind me why I have to likewise take your laughable notions seriously at any point? Is it supposed to be from a sense - that I'm supposed to possess which you lack - of fair play?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Remind me why I have to likewise take your laughable notions seriously at any point?

Just don't. Let the gibbons fling their own excrement around if it amuses them.

 

[Chief]

just because someone says they want something

That isn't how it works.

 

[ShanDog]

That isn't how it works.

I meant that in the sense that a child can say "I am x gender now and my new name is such-and-such" with the confidence that this is the best thing for them. As if they know this is right. In almost all circumstances we tell kids what's best for them, set rules and boundaries and make sure they are on the right track whether they like it or not. But for some reason, that's not always the case here.

 

[Chief]

I meant that in the sense that a child can say "I am x gender now and my new name is such-and-such" with the confidence that this is the best thing for them. As if they know this is right. In almost all circumstances we tell kids what's best for them, set rules and boundaries and make sure they are on the right track whether they like it or not. But for some reason, that's not always the case here.

I'll try and answer tomorrow, but as a tangent there is a weird little section of the Parenting Venn Diagram of people who tell everyone else to stop being helicopter parents, and people who insist children can't express anything but society's gender norms for their birth sex.

 

[ShanDog]

I'll try and answer tomorrow, but as a tangent there is a weird little section of the Parenting Venn Diagram of people who tell everyone else to stop being helicopter parents, and people who insist children can't express anything but society's gender norms for their birth sex.

Are those ideas really related in any way?

 

[Chief]

Are those ideas really related in any way?

You wouldn't think so but weirdos gonna weirdo.