Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Gralin]

Plot twist - the Italian boxer is a police officer.

She's also apologised

 

[Festerz]

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

But meanwhile...

 

[Gralin]

Imane Khelif is a woman (no matter what JK Rowling says)

The Olympics offers people the chance to see what excellence looks like – and the many different forms it comes in. Khelif is a hero – she deserves to be treated as one

www.independent.co.uk

“Many women can have testosterone in what would be called male levels and still be women, still compete as women,” he added. “So this panacea, this idea that you do one test for testosterone and that sorts everything out is not the case I’m afraid.”

 

[Chicken Treat]

I would say given transgenderism is a serious criminal offence in Algeria if they were to be that it would be quite remarkable that Imame escaped Algeria without trouble let alone successfully qualifying for Algeria for the games - the claims of her being transgender questionable to say the least.

 

[RCAB]

Being Italian myself, I watch nearly all the Italians competing.

It was the first time I watched these two boxers and had no idea about the history. It looked to me like the Italian boxer was getting more hits in, then inexplicably decided to quit, a minute into the contest.

I was watching it on STAN, on the Italian commentary channel, and even they were astounded by the forfeit. They made no mention of the prior history.

I honestly didn't think any of the punches from the Algerian were out of the ordinary. The only thing that seemed out of the ordinary, was the Italian boxer who started to cry inexplicably.

 

[Festerz]

Great to see an Aussie champion boxer calling out this culture war pile on.

Skye Nicolson has the credibility to call this BS out for what it is. She's the current holder of the WBC female featherweight title, competed at Tokyo 2020 before turning professional. In the lead-up to those Games, she lost twice to Taiwan’s Lin Yu-ting and has also fought against and sparred with Algerian Imane Khelif in the past.

 

[RCAB]

Great to see an Aussie champion boxer calling out this culture war pile on.

Skye Nicolson has the credibility to call this BS out for what it is. She's the current holder of the WBC female featherweight title, competed at Tokyo 2020 before turning professional. In the lead-up to those Games, she lost twice to Taiwan’s Lin Yu-ting and has also fought against and sparred with Algerian Imane Khelif in the past.

Well the Italian boxer has come out and apologised right now. I think she feels sorry about her reaction on many levels.

 

[Festerz]

Well the Italian boxer has come out and apologised right now. I think she feels sorry about her reaction on many levels.

Yes, she has. But the issue was never really about the Italian boxer was it? It was how she was being used. And that continues, even now.

 

[kirsti]

Fun Fact - There currently exists no studies which examine transgender or intersex athletes posing a realized or potential safety or advantage risk to sis women in a single sport, including boxing!!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[kalex6251]

Yes, she has. But the issue was never really about the Italian boxer was it? It was how she was being used. And that continues, even now.

appears shes been financially rewarded for her stunt .... lets not discount that as a possible motivator either

 

[BlueE]

You don't seem to be understanding.

Your post said Khelif was CATEGORICALLY banned from boxing by the IBA because of people's attitudes towards trans women.

Let me be clear: WE. DONT. KNOW. THAT. SHES. A. TRANS. WOMAN. That is what I said, and it was very much important to point out, because it was the crux of your soapbox criticism about "The state of things".

Or for even further clarification, if she'd be banned because she has the male physiological advantage, it would be for that reason alone, not because of a trans witch-hunt.

Are we clear yet?

That's where I left the debate and now multiple posts about everyone accused Khelif of being a trans woman.

As far as I was aware no one did. They reported correctly she was banned from World Cup competition and the reason given was failing female gender tests. "failing biochemical tests for testosterone levels" and "having XY chromosomes".

There was a process of appeal that both banned boxers competing in the Olympics could have followed and did not.

Tokyo Olympics, lead up competitions and Paris Olympics did not require gender tests, all they required was a passport that showed gender and age.

And despite not requiring gender tests for the sake of inclusion the point I think you're making is the IOC stated

that athletes with 'sex variations', another term for DSDs, have 'no presumption of advantage' and that they should be allowed to compete in the category of their gender identity.

There are exceptions, with framework stating that an 'evidence-based approach' can be used to exclude athletes who have a 'consistent unfair disproportionate advantage' or if there is an 'unpreventable risk' to the safety of other athletes.

Now, claims that Khelif is actually none of those is actually a biological woman backed up by reddit and Wikipedia, is not proved from what I've seen.

The only scientific evidence I've seen of a situation even close to this was reported around 40 years ago from a small Caribbean Island. A child born was thought to be female, treated and educated (home duties and lack of schooling) as a female until puberty, when testosterone was produced at male levels. They found they were male, with undescended testes and XY chromosomes, who developed normally as a male from then.

There was a small group that this happened to who were all fund to have one ancestor in common with a chromosome mutation passed down in a passive gene.

 

[BlueE]

Great to see an Aussie champion boxer calling out this culture war pile on.

Skye Nicolson has the credibility to call this BS out for what it is. She's the current holder of the WBC female featherweight title, competed at Tokyo 2020 before turning professional. In the lead-up to those Games, she lost twice to Taiwan’s Lin Yu-ting and has also fought against and sparred with Algerian Imane Khelif in the past.

They were born with an XY chromosome, which is the male chromosome, but they were born with female bodies, they have the physical attributes of a female,” she said.

Seriously?



From another Aussie, Tina Rahimi who competes in the same division as Lin but lost to Poland’s Julia Szeremeta on Friday,

“Going into a major event like this, I think it’s really unnecessary unless there are proper facts to prove that is the case.”

Asked about athletes with male XY chromosomes competing in women’s events, Rahimi said: “I don’t know where the evidence is for that. Obviously, men should be participating in men’s sport, and women should be participating in women’s sport.

 

[Chief]

Seriously?

Yes. Seriously.

Your inability to understand not all women look the same is your issue to deal with. I am sure people will be happy to help you learn and grow, but you have to do the work.

 

[Chief]

Summing it up before we all move on to the next outrage:

 

[BlueE]

Yes. Seriously.

Your inability to understand not all women look like the same is your issue to deal with. I am sure people will be happy to help you learn and grow, but you have to do the work.

Being a woman that competed and won National Championships in two different sports in two countries and named in an Australian Universities team, I am perfectly able to appreciate what women look and compete like.

Your continual gaslighting and suppression of women and those that support them is something as boss of this site you need to deal with.

 

[Chief]

Being a woman that competed and won Championships in two different sports in two countries and named in an Australian Universities team, I am perfectly able to appreciate what women look and compete like.

Your continual gaslighting and suppression of women and those that support them is something as boss of this site you need to deal with.

Which makes it even more incredible that you don't understand that not all women look the same.

 

[BlueE]

Which makes it even more incredible that you don't understand that not all women look the same.

I absolutely do, you don't!

 

[Chief]

I absolutely do, you don't!

Imane Khelif is a female with the physical attributes of a female. Do you dispute this?

 

[BlueE]

Imane Khelif is a female with the physical attributes of a female. Do you dispute this?

What actual evidence do you have of this?

 

[skipper kelly]

Still don't want men punching women. In real life or sport.

 

[Chief]

What actual evidence do you have of this?

It's not my job to disprove your claim.

But let's do that:

• Science.
• Independent statements from people closely involved in the situation.
• No actual evidence to the contrary.

A good read on where your beliefs actually come from:

What is essentialism? And how does it shape attitudes to transgender people and sexual diversity?

Essentialism seeks certainty in a fluid world, but it is an inherently conservative philosophy that ought to be expunged from contemporary ethical and political debates.

theconversation.com

 

[Chief]

Still don't want men punching women. In real life or sport.

Nobody does.

But that isn't the case here.

 

[BlueE]

It's not my job to disprove your claim.

But let's do that:

• Science.
• Independent statements from people closely involved in the situation.
• No actual evidence to the contrary.

A good read on where your beliefs actually come from:

What is essentialism? And how does it shape attitudes to transgender people and sexual diversity?

Essentialism seeks certainty in a fluid world, but it is an inherently conservative philosophy that ought to be expunged from contemporary ethical and political debates.

theconversation.com

No it was your claim, based on nothing reliable it seems.

Mine was based on science.

Independent statements and gender testing results all disclose having XY chromosomes and failing biochemical tests for testosterone levels.

Actual scientific evidence as I described in a few posts up, where males born looking like girls is extraordinarily rare and results in normal male growth and development from puberty and traced back to a single ancestor with a gene mutation.

Steroid 5alpha-reductase deficiency in man: an inherited form of male pseudohermaphroditism - PubMed

In male pseudohermaphrodites born with ambiguity of the external genitalia but with marked virilization at puberty, biochemical evaluation reveals a marked decrease in plasma dihydrotestosterone secondary to a decrease in steroid 5alpha-reductase activity. In utero the decrease in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Edit: I know most won't be bothered reading the original research although it is worth doing, this is a short BBC summary.

The extraordinary case of the Guevedoces

Children in a remote village in the Dominican Republic have an extremely unusual condition.

www.bbc.com

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Fun Fact - There currently exists no studies which examine transgender or intersex athletes posing a realized or potential safety or advantage risk to sis women in a single sport, including boxing!!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

That's something that could, nay SHOULD, be remedied! The Science should have informed judgement to call upon.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

No it was your claim, based on nothing reliable it seems.

Mine was based on science.

Independent statements and gender testing results all disclose having XY chromosomes and failing biochemical tests for testosterone levels.

Actual scientific evidence as I described in a few posts up, where males born looking like girls is extraordinarily rare and results in normal male growth and development from puberty and traced back to a single ancestor with a gene mutation.

Steroid 5alpha-reductase deficiency in man: an inherited form of male pseudohermaphroditism - PubMed

In male pseudohermaphrodites born with ambiguity of the external genitalia but with marked virilization at puberty, biochemical evaluation reveals a marked decrease in plasma dihydrotestosterone secondary to a decrease in steroid 5alpha-reductase activity. In utero the decrease in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Edit: I know most won't be bothered reading the original research although it is worth doing, this is a short BBC summary.

The extraordinary case of the Guevedoces

Children in a remote village in the Dominican Republic have an extremely unusual condition.

www.bbc.com

So you are medically diagnosing this Algerian boxer based off Russian misinformation and using a BBC documentary on the Dominican Republic?

That's some interesting scientific methodology you got there BlueE.