Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[ShanDog]

Ask any number of dudes on holiday in some Pacific countries.



"Transdar" is what you're going on?

Bit racist.

Obfuscate as much as you want, but the idea remains straightforward - humans can pick the sex of another human with extraordinary accuracy, and that's undoubtedly because as a sexually dimorphic species, we have evolved to do so.

How this can be controversial to anyone is amazing.

 

[Chief]

Bit racist.

Obfuscate as much as you want, but the idea remains straightforward - humans can pick the sex of another human with extraordinary accuracy

So?

and that's undoubtedly because as a sexually dimorphic species, we have evolved to do so.

How this can be controversial to anyone is amazing.

I'm not getting into the politics of the whole "passing" thing.

What is undoubtedly bullshit is looking at a picture of someone we all know is female and claiming your transdar trumps that knowledge.

 

[ShanDog]

I mean, if there weren't consistent secondary sexual characteristics, why would there be feminising or mascularising surgeries available? Let alone all the obvious (but admittedly more sociocultural) other forms of aesthetic amendments trans people make in order to best pass as the other sex.

 

[ShanDog]

What is undoubtedly bullshit is looking at a picture of someone we all know is female and claiming your transdar trumps that knowledge.

Who are you talking about? Khelif? Because "We all know she is female" is just your ideology speaking. None of us know if she is male or female unless we were to see test results. Your own ideology ("who can tell who is trans?") demands that.

 

[BlueE]

It could be entirely possible that you meant to say "Seriously?" in a way that meant you agreed with the sentence that preceded it, instead of how I saw it in that you were indicating you are incredulous about the preceding sentence:

Do I have it right or wrong?

It could be entirely possible that you presented this as something other than agreement with the obvious fact that cis males should not be boxing against women:

So, if I have it wrong, let me know.

No I didn't agree with that statement. It is clearly wrong.

"They were born with an XY chromosome, which is the male chromosome, but they were born with female bodies, they have the physical attributes of a female,”

All the research I presented clearly showed if a person is born with XY chromosomes and were assigned a female gender at birth, both in my examples as with Khelif the genitals looked female, they have physical attributes of a male from puberty.

 

[BlueE]

Cool, I am sure you have those test results at hand, validated by someone other than Umar Kremlev, whose unhinged bigotry was posted by Ghost Patrol earlier?

That post was selectively quoting to push a political narrative, from a translation (which I can't confirm) of Kremlev.

However, using the translation he said "Regarding the opening ceremony" not "The 2024 Olympic Games" as the biased political commentator said, "I want to say that that it was pure sodemy". "The Olympics is where people should untie, where they should respect traditional values."

Which word was translated to sodomy I'm not sure, it could have also meant satanic or against Christian values, because this agreed with the view of a couple of billion Christians according to people representing them around the world. For example,

The Vatican expressed sadness Saturday for the opening ceremony at the 2024 Paris Olympics, according to the Catholic News Agency.

"The Holy See was saddened by certain scenes at the opening ceremony of the Paris Olympic Games and cannot but join the voices raised in recent days to deplore the offense done to many Christians and believers of other religions," it said.

"In a prestigious event where the whole world comes together around common values, there should not be allusions ridiculing the religious convictions of many people," it said.

"Freedom of expression, which is obviously not called into question, finds its limit in respect for others," it added.

Vatican ‘saddened’ by Olympics opening ceremony

‘There should not be allusions ridiculing the religious convictions of many people,' in event where world gathers, says Holy See - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Primate of Alexandria denounces Olympic opening ceremony

The Episcopal Church, presided over by Dr. Sami Fouzi, Archbishop of the Province of Alexandria, expresses its disgust towards the inappropriate artwork witnessed by the Opening Ceremony of the Paris Olympic Games, which includes the scene of the Last Supper, which is an integral part of our...

anglican.ink

Kremlev: "The International (Boxing) Association was created in UAE, where every nationality and culture of every people can come together. And now men with changed gender are allowed to fight with women in boxing at the Olympics. Where is gender equality? So we are talking about gender and equality and immediately kill women's boxing. And today the IOC, Thomas Bach and his team are not people. They are society's outcasts. So let us join and show them their place."

 

[BlueE]

The IBA faced inquires and was dismantled by the IOC. However Thomas Bach and the IOC has 8 to 10 scandals attributed to him, including seemingly allowing the Russians to compete despite systematic doping violations.

Failing IBA gender testosterones and having XY chromosome tests was reported by Kremlev and by journalists other boxers and coaches from all over the world. The 2023 World Championship tournament officials told the boxers they'd failed 'gender eligibility tests'. The results and bans were accepted and not challenged or appealed.

Instead, the two banned athletes relied on the Olympics in Japan and Paris and the lead up boxing bouts not to require any gender eligibility tests, except to present a passport with age and gender shown.

Also the IOC or their hastily convened "Paris Boxing Unit" did not apply not apply their own safety standards for
athletes with 'sex variations', another term for DSDs, have 'no presumption of advantage' and that they should be allowed to compete in the category of their gender identity.

There are exceptions, with framework stating that an 'evidence-based approach' can be used to exclude athletes who have a 'consistent unfair disproportionate advantage' or if there is an 'unpreventable risk' to the safety of other athletes.

The Hungarian Boxing Association has lodged a protest of Hamori's match with Khelif, and after the fight a Hungarian boxing official said, "consequences must be carefully evaluated after the Games." IOC spokesman Mark Adams told USA TODAY Sports by email that he was unaware of a protest.

Algerian boxer Imane Khelif wins again amid gender controversy at Olympics

Algerian boxer Imane Khelif beats Hungary’s Anna Luca Hamori Saturday amid controversy over gender eligibility criteria at the Paris Olympics.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Failing IBA gender testosterones

Can you explain what IBA gender testosterones are?

 

[ShanDog]

Can you explain what IBA gender testosterones are?

I think there's supposed to be commas in there.

Failing IBA gender, testosterones, and having XY chromosome tests was reported by Kremlev, and by journalists, other boxers and coaches from all over the world.

 

[Chief]

Failing IBA gender testosterones and having XY chromosome tests was reported by Kremlev and by journalists other boxers and coaches from all over the world.

So... they've got the results of those tests? Or are they just repeating what the IBA claimed?

 

[Chief]

However, using the translation he said "Regarding the opening ceremony" not "The 2024 Olympic Games" as the biased political commentator said, "I want to say that that it was pure sodemy". "The Olympics is where people should untie, where they should respect traditional values."

Which word was translated to sodomy I'm not sure, it could have also meant satanic or against Christian values, because this agreed with the view of a couple of billion Christians according to people representing them around the world. For example,

To go on this tangent: It wasn't about Christianity. It wasn't a scene from any Christian story.

If Christians recognised elements of it, it's probably because many Christian myths are very much drawn from earlier religious stories.

We could go into that, but it's well covered in other threads and basically accepted by anyone who knows anything about it.

But do you see how the Kremlev rant is proof of his hatred and ignorance anyway?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

So... they've got the results of those tests? Or are they just repeating what the IBA claimed?

IBA won't even say what type of tests they were, or which lab performed the testing.

It's just a 'trust me comrade' from that Kremlev bloke.

 

[Chief]

IBA won't even say what type of tests they were, or which lab performed the testing.

It's just a 'trust me comrade' from that Kremlev bloke.

Sounds legit.

 

[ShanDog]

IBA won't even say what type of tests they were, or which lab performed the testing.

It's just a 'trust me comrade' from that Kremlev bloke.

Sounds legit.

If it wasn't testosterone, it's got to be genetic testing for sex.

IBA letter to IOC, June 2023: Boxer's 'DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes' | 3 Wire Sports

PARIS – The athlete who has ignited a worldwide controversy in Olympic women’s boxing was disqualified from the 2023 International Boxing Assn. world championships in New Delhi after two tests, one in India amid that tournament and a prior test in Turkey in May 2022, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was t

www.3wiresports.com

This report says they have seen a letter from the IBA to the IOC last June that contained the results. I don't know how reliable this person is but they seem to be well known in Olympic reporting.

 

[ShanDog]

I know it was poor timing of me to come across the WPATH info, so I'll bring it back up after this shitty boxing thing dies down so that people can't ignore it again.

 

[Chief]

The idea that some women stray too far from some narrow, arbitrary definition of "woman" is abhorrent.

Who else gets this treatment in future? Who else do the moral minority and the grifters feed to the disgruntled and annoyed for clicks and votes?

Too tall to be a basketball player?

Feet too big to be a swimmer?

What other genetic traits will be deemed unacceptable?

Let us know now so everyone can get ready to defend the next sliver of society the eugenicists want to carve off.

 

[faible]

BlueE has emerged from the conspiracy forums and is now an expert on Transgender people? That's novel.

 

[ShanDog]

The idea that some women stray too far from some narrow, arbitrary definition of "woman" is abhorrent.

So we should encourage people to be more ok with who they are instead of having to change themselves to meet outdated social standards of gender?

 

[ShanDog]

Love the efforts of people to point at absolutely anything except the actual issue people have, i.e. not wanting someone who has all the physical advantages of male puberty competing against females.

As though the idea of segregating sports by sex in order to make the playing field at least a little bit fair is an offensive idea.

 

[faible]

Love the efforts of people to point at absolutely anything except the actual issue people have, i.e. not wanting someone who has all the physical advantages of male puberty competing against females.

As though the idea of segregating sports by sex in order to make the playing field at least a little bit fair is an offensive idea.

It's because on a number of occasions those trying to argue it are doing so in a way that suggests their issue is less 'fairness in sport' and more 'I don't like trans people'.

Then you've got this boxer thing, where it's not even a transgender person and more like the Semenya situation, but getting lumped in as trans people things.

 

[Kram]

Having concern for fairness and safety in women's sports is apparently now a 'far right' position to take, what a time to be alive.

 

[ShanDog]

It's because on a number of occasions those trying to argue it are doing so in a way that suggests their issue is less 'fairness in sport' and more 'I don't like trans people'.

Then you've got this boxer thing, where it's not even a transgender person and more like the Semenya situation, but getting lumped in as trans people things.

I'd argue it's more the case that anyone who says they care about fairness in sport is TOLD that they don't, and that everyone knows they really just hate trans people. And the beauty of it is that the more you protest, the more guilty you're told you are.

I have barely seen anyone say Khelif is trans. Maybe it's the online information silos I move in, but right from the start, all I saw was speculation about a DSD, and direct comparisons to Caster Semenya.

 

[faible]

I'd argue it's more the case that anyone who says they care about fairness in sport is TOLD that they don't, and that everyone knows they really just hate trans people. And the beauty of it is that the more you protest, the more guilty you're told you are.

I have barely seen anyone say Khelif is trans. Maybe it's the online information silos I move in, but right from the start, all I saw was speculation about a DSD, and direct comparisons to Caster Semenya.

There's plenty of clickbait about women fighting a MAN with a complete lack of proper explanation as to what's going on. You might be educated enough on the topic to understand it, but heaps don't. Same as they didn't with Semenya.

I agree, and have argued extensively, that it's 'easy' to just write off those of us who post about fairness for women competing in sports by calling us TERFs or whatever, instead of engaging with the topic. But that's a two-way street, plenty of posters come wading in pretty clearly using language that tells you where they sit on trans-people, and their views aren't really overly informed, nor are they looking to be more informed. It's a sport forum, there's of course going to be an over-representation in people who have trained with women and/or have women in their lives who play sport, so whether or not anti-trans cohorts rely on the IMO valid discussion around the parameters of transgender athletes participating in sports competition, is not necessarily a valid critique of someone's post.

That said, if you (not you, the nebulous 'you') want to make an argument around transgender athletes participating in a specific sport or league is appropriate, at least take the time to understand the language and terminology involved, and read some of the research that exists.

 

[Chief]

So we should encourage people to be more ok with who they are instead of having to change themselves to meet outdated social standards of gender?

We should, but that doesn't flow from this does it? The "so" a the start of your posts is out of place.

It's about people's outdated and inadequate ideas of who and who are not women.

The IOC has decided that Kremlev's narrow idea of womanhood - which you seem to share - isn't valid.

I'm assuming if it was your event you would ask Imane to use the men's toilets?

The IOC also decided Kremlev's other views on the opening ceremony and its performers aren't valid. Go figure.

 

[ShanDog]

We should, but that doesn't flow from this does it? The "so" a the start of your posts is out of place.

It's about people's outdated and inadequate ideas of who and who are not women.

The IOC has decided that Kremlev's narrow idea of womanhood - which you seem to share - isn't valid.

I'm assuming if it was your event you would ask Imane to use the men's toilets?

The IOC also decided Kremlev's other views on the opening ceremony and its performers aren't valid. Go figure.

I'd say that IF Khelif indeed has a DSD that resulted in her receiving the physical advantages of testosterone and male puberty, then she shouldn't be able to compete. That's the limit of what I think should occur.

Khelif has grown up as a woman and had that identity her whole life. She can use those toilets, do makeup, paint nails - absolutely whatever whatever the **** she would like to do with her life - just as anyone else can, except, she can't compete against women in boxing. That's it. I don't think that's unfair in any way. We aren't all created equal, and we don't all get the same opportunities as everyone else by happenstance of birth sometimes, and there's nothing we can do about that but soldier on. Which is ironically a lesson we could actually learn by looking at how Phelps - the genetic freak who apparently had size 25 feet, three extra sets of lungs, and the wingspan of a Concord jet according to the usual mob of unthinking goons - beat everyone else and they just had to put up with it. It cuts both ways sometimes.

As an aside, I thought the opening ceremony had some awesome moments (the homage to Assassin's Creed in particular) and some really weird moments that I didn't care for. I imagine the majority of people had a similar reaction. It doesn't surprise me that fundamentalist religious types wouldn't have liked it.