Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Chief]

I'd say that IF Khelif indeed has a DSD that resulted in her receiving the physical advantages of testosterone and male puberty, then she shouldn't be able to compete. That's the limit of what I think should occur.

So Michael Phelps with his genetic disorder shouldn't have been allowed to swim?

 

[ShanDog]

So Michael Phelps with his genetic disorder shouldn't have been allowed to swim?

No, sometimes life gives you lemons.

You are in the physical peak of your life, having trained meticulously for years to squeeze every last possible but of performance out of your body. You've leapt every hurdle along the way, winning your way into the Olympics and get to a final... Then turn to your right and... Michael flipping Phelps is there. Balls. Suddenly, just like the 13 year old Bangladeshi boy who is watching on one of the few TVs on the street, or the middle aged man in the stands who hurt his back when he was 19 and could never reach great heights, or the islander who has never seen a competitive swimming event in his life because there's no Olympic sized pool anywhere near him - you've got no hope of winning.

A small mind would believe these two situations are the same. But they aren't. Phelps is a male. Everyone else he was competing against was a male. We separate male and female sports because - as evidenced by people like Phelps - males have a much higher potential ceiling for performance. The alternative is to believe the idea that since people like Phelps exist, it demonstrates that everyone already has a genetic advantage or disadvantage already, so what do these categories matter anyway? And the answer to that is no - get absolutely ****ed.

 

[Chief]

A small mind would believe these two situations are the same.

 

[Chief]

Everyone else he was competing against was a male. We separate male and female sports because - as evidenced by people like Phelps - males have a much higher potential ceiling for performance.

Imane is a female. Just hoping you finally pick up on this.

So the two situations are exactly the same.

 

[ShanDog]

Imane is a female. Just hoping you finally pick up on this.

So the two situations are exactly the same.

Do you mean woman? Or female?

 

[Chief]

Do you mean woman? Or female?

 

[ShanDog]

View attachment 2069812

I'm asking to confirm which you mean because it matters in this situation, not to be a dick.

 

[BlueE]

If it wasn't testosterone, it's got to be genetic testing for sex.

IBA letter to IOC, June 2023: Boxer's 'DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes' | 3 Wire Sports

PARIS – The athlete who has ignited a worldwide controversy in Olympic women’s boxing was disqualified from the 2023 International Boxing Assn. world championships in New Delhi after two tests, one in India amid that tournament and a prior test in Turkey in May 2022, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was t

www.3wiresports.com

This report says they have seen a letter from the IBA to the IOC last June that contained the results. I don't know how reliable this person is but they seem to be well known in Olympic reporting.

Thanks for that. I had read somewhere that there had been two separate tests on Khelif and Lin at two different world cups in 2022 and 2023 that determined both had XY chromosomes. This confirms and gives details, sets out a timeline using official correspondence.

Both had plenty of time and opportunity to appeal the decisions to the International Court of Arbitration of Sport. Lin never did and Khelif started but withdrew from the process.

Instead in a very big coincidence, an IBA letter to the IOC on June 5th 2023 spotlighting Algeria’s Imane Khelif, reads, “This situation epitomizes the importance of protecting safe sport, and the integrity of sport in which the Olympic Movement is jointly committed to.”

and “concluded the boxer’s DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes,”

Then on June 22, 2023, the IOC withdrew recognition from the IBA.

There is a scheduled press conference tomorrow 7.00am EST, with Chris Roberts, IBA Secretary General and CEO, loannis Filippatos, EUBC President, former Chair of IBA Medical Committee Marko Petric, IBA Sport Director Cabrile Martil, IBA Coaches Committee Chairman.

 

[BlueE]

I think it's worth looking at the timeline (next post)

I'd say that IF Khelif indeed has a DSD that resulted in her receiving the physical advantages of testosterone and male puberty, then she shouldn't be able to compete. That's the limit of what I think should occur.

The IOC has been extremely weak, contradictory and confusing with it's statements and policy, with proof of being a woman a social construct and not a biological reality.

Thomas Bach's press conference made the situation even more confusing and showed a poor understanding of science that he had to be later corrected by an official IOC statement. "But I repeat, here, this is not a DSD case," then corrected to ‘But "I repeat, here, this is not a transgender case,"

I had a more narrow understanding of DSD, as 'intersex' rather than "a range of rare conditions in which a person’s genitalia do not necessarily match with their chromosomes or hormone levels".

Although not confirmed, I agree with you and most likely has male testosterone levels and gone through male puberty having XY chromosomes.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The transphobes bark about protecting women

In other news water is wet, of course transphobes use this in bad faith.

But they're not the only ones that use this argument, fair speculation that most people that use this argument actually have concern for safety and integrity.

 

[Gralin]

IOC calls tests that sparked vitriol targeting boxers impossibly flawed

Olympics organizers have again slammed arbitrary testing imposed on boxers Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Tin that led to a storm of vitriol misidentifying the women as transgender or men

abcnews.go.com

He rejected the testing in its entirety.


“There’s a whole range of reasons why we won't deal with this," Adams said. "Partly confidentiality. Partly medical issues. Partly that there was no basis for the test in the first place. And partly data-sharing of this is also highly against the rules, international rules.”

“The whole process is flawed,” Adams added. “From the conception of the test, to how the test was shared with us, to how the tests have become public, is so flawed that it’s impossible to engage with it.”

 

[ShanDog]

Ah, NOW scientific rigour and methods matter eh?

 

[Gralin]

Ah, NOW scientific rigour and methods matter eh?

I never said they didn't Shan you just keep pretending I did

 

[Chief]

None of my business.

not to be a dick.

Ironically...

 

[Chief]

The IOC has been extremely weak, contradictory and confusing with it's statements and policy, with proof of being a woman a social construct and not a biological reality.

No they haven't.

 

[10571z]

She was born a female… play on.

 

[BlueE]

Ah, NOW scientific rigour and methods matter eh?

In May 2022, during the IBA women’s world championship in Istanbul, Lin and Khelif underwent chromosome tests, which were processed locally at a lab.

IBA minutes from March 25, 2023, the day before that tournament closed, indicate the results of the 2022 worlds tests “were received only upon the conclusion of the event, hence the athletes were not disqualified back then.”

Again, the next world championships would be in March 2023 in New Delhi. Why were both athletes allowed to take part?

“Another test was not possible to conduct when the athletes were outside IBA control until they arrived to New Delhi,” the minutes read.

In New Delhi, another test for each, “to reconfirm the findings of the initial test, which it did,” according to the June 2023 letter the IBA sent to the IOC.

The New Delhi lab reports for both Khelif and Lin say the same thing:

Result Summary: “Abnormal”

Interpretation: “Chromosomal analysis reveals Male karyotype.”

A karyotype means an individual’s complete set of chromosomes. Females have XX chromosomes, males XY.

The lab results for each athlete depict the XY chromosomes photographically.
The IBA minutes do say, as the IOC has said, that the decision to disqualify was made by the IBA secretary general at the time and that the board was asked to ratify that move.

At the same time, the minutes also make clear that – in the case of Khelif – the acting Algerian ambassador was present at that March 25, 2023, meeting and “invited to present the Algerian position and requested a second opinion on the issue.”

A majority of the board voted to approve the disqualifications, with one abstention and one no, Jose Laureano of Puerto Rico. Laureano then suggested that the IBA establish a “clear procedure on gender testing.” The new rules were in place by May 2023.

The IBA said in a statement that Lin did not appeal the IBA disqualification to the Swiss-based Court of Arbitration for Sport, “thus rendering the decision legally binding.”

Khelif, the IBA said, initially lodged an appeal with CAS but dropped the case, “also making the IBA decision legally binding.”

 

[Chief]

“Another test was not possible to conduct when the athletes were outside IBA control until they arrived to New Delhi,” the minutes read.

Why did they need another test if it was conclusive and should now apply to the Olympics, according to Kremlev?

 

[BlueE]

No they haven't.

Yes they have with their very definition of eligibility for women's events and Bach's confusion about the issues in boxing with Khelif and Lin that I've already posted.

 

[BlueE]

Why did they need another test if it was conclusive and should now apply to the Olympics, according to Kremlev?

Both tests were conclusive, but he's talking about another test between 2022 World Championships and the beginning of the 2023 World Championships.

So they could not be banned until the test results came back after the 2023 championships had started.

Confirms the first test and they both were able to appeal to the International Court of Arbitration.

 

[BlueE]

She was born a female… play on.

Incorrect.

 

[Chief]

Yes they have with their very definition of eligibility for women's events and Bach's confusion about the issues in boxing with Khelif and Lin that I've already posted.

No they haven't.

IOC says:

 

[ShanDog]

I never said they didn't Shan you just keep pretending I did

Yeah, it was a joke, but rigour was definitely more important to you when it supports your POV as opposed to when a review suggests evidence supporting hormone treatments is poor though eh?

 

[Gralin]

Yeah, it was a joke, but rigour was definitely more important to you when it supports your POV as opposed to when a review suggests evidence supporting hormone treatments is poor though eh?

I mean when I'm complaining about the rigour of the review that is used yo ban treatments I think that means rigour is important

 

[BlueE]

No they haven't.

IOC says:

View attachment 2069916

WTF???

Are you are temper tanty throwing child playing with crayons to excuse trans-related jokes and insults or is this how well-mannered adults behave.

Asking for a friend?