Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[BlueE]

Live IAC conference in Paris on now.

 

[ShanDog]

I mean when I'm complaining about the rigour of the review that is used yo ban treatments I think that means rigour is important

Ah ok, just only for the aspect that supports your perspective though. Got it.

 

[Gralin]

Ah ok, just only for the aspect that supports your perspective though. Got it.

sure whatever makes you happy Shan

 

[ShanDog]

sure whatever makes you happy Shan

Consistency does. Let me know when you look at the WPATH issue and where you sit on the rigour of that organisation.

 

[Gralin]

Consistency does. Let me know when you look at the WPATH issue and where you sit on the rigour of that organisation.

Given I can find about 3 paywalled news articles on this and nothing else you're unlikely to get a response

 

[ShanDog]

Given I can find about 3 paywalled news articles on this and nothing else you're unlikely to get a response

The Economist one I linked should be free. I don't pay for it.

 

[kirsti]

Do you mean woman? Or female?

Birth certificates do not list men or women. If a woman’s birth certificate says she is female she is female. You can scream all you like but that’s the law.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Gethelred]

In May 2022, during the IBA women’s world championship in Istanbul, Lin and Khelif underwent chromosome tests, which were processed locally at a lab.

IBA minutes from March 25, 2023, the day before that tournament closed, indicate the results of the 2022 worlds tests “were received only upon the conclusion of the event, hence the athletes were not disqualified back then.”

Again, the next world championships would be in March 2023 in New Delhi. Why were both athletes allowed to take part?

“Another test was not possible to conduct when the athletes were outside IBA control until they arrived to New Delhi,” the minutes read.

In New Delhi, another test for each, “to reconfirm the findings of the initial test, which it did,” according to the June 2023 letter the IBA sent to the IOC.

The New Delhi lab reports for both Khelif and Lin say the same thing:

Result Summary: “Abnormal”

Interpretation: “Chromosomal analysis reveals Male karyotype.”

A karyotype means an individual’s complete set of chromosomes. Females have XX chromosomes, males XY.

The lab results for each athlete depict the XY chromosomes photographically.
The IBA minutes do say, as the IOC has said, that the decision to disqualify was made by the IBA secretary general at the time and that the board was asked to ratify that move.

At the same time, the minutes also make clear that – in the case of Khelif – the acting Algerian ambassador was present at that March 25, 2023, meeting and “invited to present the Algerian position and requested a second opinion on the issue.”

A majority of the board voted to approve the disqualifications, with one abstention and one no, Jose Laureano of Puerto Rico. Laureano then suggested that the IBA establish a “clear procedure on gender testing.” The new rules were in place by May 2023.

The IBA said in a statement that Lin did not appeal the IBA disqualification to the Swiss-based Court of Arbitration for Sport, “thus rendering the decision legally binding.”

Khelif, the IBA said, initially lodged an appeal with CAS but dropped the case, “also making the IBA decision legally binding.”

Just to be clear, where are you sourcing these? Can you provide a link?

 

[ShanDog]

Birth certificates do not list men or women. If a woman’s birth certificate says she is female she is female. You can scream all you like but that’s the law.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Yeah, just like a theocracy right?

That's completely irrelevant to my question. It's long been argued that we should recognise the difference between sex and gender. I'm just wanting to clarify which Chief meant in his post.

 

[Gralin]

 

[BlueE]

Just to be clear, where are you sourcing these? Can you provide a link?

Sure. Shan posted it on Sunday and I was replying to the post, although it took a couple of posts.

IBA letter to IOC, June 2023: Boxer's 'DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes' | 3 Wire Sports

PARIS – The athlete who has ignited a worldwide controversy in Olympic women’s boxing was disqualified from the 2023 International Boxing Assn. world championships in New Delhi after two tests, one in India amid that tournament and a prior test in Turkey in May 2022, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was t

www.3wiresports.com

 

[BlueE]

Because the Taiwan and Algerian Boxing Associations banned them from releasing personal medical information.

You watched? It was chaotic though.

 

[BlueE]

‘This Boxer Is Male’: IBA Holds Presser, Says 2 Olympic Boxers Failed Gender Chromosome Test

The International Boxing Association (IBA) on Monday said that two fighters participating in Olympic women’s boxing failed a gender chromosome test. The IBA held a press conference to address the controversy surrounding Lin Yu-ting of Taiwan and Imane Khelif of Algeria. Despite both boxers...

www.dailywire.com

IBA doubles down on 'flawed' gender tests in bizarre presser

'They are men'

www.nine.com.au

 

[Gough]

Like W. Mark Felt said...

 

[Chief]

Yeah, just like a theocracy right?

That's completely irrelevant to my question. It's long been argued that we should recognise the difference between sex and gender. I'm just wanting to clarify which Chief meant in his post.

Woman and female probably. Depends if any of this is true, how she identifies, whatever.

From what's swirled around she is a woman. Female. A lady. The law recognises her as such. The IOC recognises her as such.

Until she feels she wants to say something, I'm going with what the law and the IOC say.

I mean, gender testing was stupid when the pervs in the US wanted to start doing genital inspections of kids playing football. It's stupid in this case.
What I do know from my own experience is that every week on the basketball court I see teenagers absolutely smashed by much bigger kids in the same division. Two or three kids on the court scoring most of the points due to what are obviously genetic advantages.

Nobody protests that. Nobody demands the big kids get genetically tested. They teach kids how to play to their strengths, try to protect themselves and others on the court.

 

[BlueE]

Like W. Mark Felt said...

W. Mark Felt said "Men get a free shot to not only beat, but beat up women in a women's sport because tests proving they repeatedly failed the XX standards the IBA set for safety and fairness in their events was not met and they were banned, because the do not want their personal medical information released, but look at the shiney thing over here"?

The Italian Federation of boxing have stated no one is accepting any money.

 

[Gralin]

Misinformation, abuse and injustice: breaking down the Olympic boxing firestorm

The controversy and misinformation that engulfed Algerian boxer Imane Khelif showcases failings from major sports organisations to individuals.

theconversation.com

 

[Chief]

In relation to the evolutionary biology of transdar, this assumes that the person being scanned by this powerful sense does nothing to hide or distract from features that might appear in the transdar display:

"
Beyond the ethics of the tests being used, the extreme levels of online abuse directed to sportswomen such as Khelif and Lin reveal new ways in which women’s bodies are being policed and regulated.

To avoid such accusations, many sportswomen are engaging in what scholars have termed “emphasised femininity” – wearing long lashes, jewellery, make-up, painted nails and overtly feminine clothing. This is not because it enhances their performance but to reassure audiences (and critics) of their femininity.

If they do not offer a convincing performance that meets limited versions of femininity, they may also face surveillance of their gendered bodies, and public attack and online abuse."

 

[ShanDog]

Woman and female probably. Depends if any of this is true, how she identifies, whatever.

From what's swirled around she is a woman. Female. A lady. The law recognises her as such. The IOC recognises her as such.

Until she feels she wants to say something, I'm going with what the law and the IOC say.

Right, and if she were to say something and confirm what the IBA is saying and she has a DSD that gave her male physiological advantage? What's your stance then? If it's the below....

I mean, gender testing was stupid when the pervs in the US wanted to start doing genital inspections of kids playing football. It's stupid in this case.
What I do know from my own experience is that every week on the basketball court I see teenagers absolutely smashed by much bigger kids in the same division. Two or three kids on the court scoring most of the points due to what are obviously genetic advantages.

Nobody protests that. Nobody demands the big kids get genetically tested. They teach kids how to play to their strengths, try to protect themselves and others on the court.

Yet all those teenagers are still playing against their own sex. We have categories for participation in most sports for a reason. This attempt at justification is truly the most baffling, incoherent and ridiculous idea to permeate society these days.

 

[ShanDog]

In relation to the evolutionary biology of transdar, this assumes that the person being scanned by this powerful sense does nothing to hide or distract from features that might appear in the transdar display:

"
Beyond the ethics of the tests being used, the extreme levels of online abuse directed to sportswomen such as Khelif and Lin reveal new ways in which women’s bodies are being policed and regulated.

To avoid such accusations, many sportswomen are engaging in what scholars have termed “emphasised femininity” – wearing long lashes, jewellery, make-up, painted nails and overtly feminine clothing. This is not because it enhances their performance but to reassure audiences (and critics) of their femininity.

If they do not offer a convincing performance that meets limited versions of femininity, they may also face surveillance of their gendered bodies, and public attack and online abuse."

So?

 

[Gralin]

So?

Is this a so what gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette kind of thing?

 

[ShanDog]

Is this a so what gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette kind of thing?

No, it's a "How does this relate in a meaningful way to the issue?"

Either Khelif has a DSD that could give her an unfair advantage or she doesn't. The rest of this is just posturing and signalling.

 

[Gralin]

No, it's a "How does this relate in a meaningful way to the issue?"

Either Khelif has a DSD that could give her an unfair advantage or she doesn't. The rest of this is just posturing and signalling.

seems like it is

you're not interested in the fall out of damage caused by your single minded position on "fairness" in sports

which funnily enough doesn't extend to men or life or anyone that you decide shouldn't be part of sport

those people are told to suck eggs and that life isn't fair

so really its about you and other people deciding what should be allowed for women and girls and then washing your hands of the collateral damage as "not relevant virtue signaling"

 

[ShanDog]

seems like it is

you're not interested in the fall out of damage caused by your single minded position on "fairness" in sports

which funnily enough doesn't extend to men or life or anyone that you decide shouldn't be part of sport

those people are told to suck eggs and that life isn't fair

so really its about you and other people deciding what should be allowed for women and girls and then washing your hands of the collateral damage as "not relevant virtue signaling"

Life isn't fair, absolutely correct.

That's why when we come together to have competition, we do so with boundaries for participation put in place to make things as fair as possible while still letting the cream rise to the top.

If you want to play the "You're cold and heartless" game, your hatred of women is showing through this issue, you misogynist bigot. Hope the women in your life have better advocates than you around them.

 

[Chief]

Yet all those teenagers are still playing against their own sex.

What would be the difference if it's about safety? Why would we not do blood tests on anyone, anywhere who doesn't present the way you think a person of that gender, age, race, parentage should?

We have categories for participation in most sports for a reason.

And Imane fit the criteria for her category.

This attempt at justification is truly the most baffling, incoherent and ridiculous idea to permeate society these days.