Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Life isn't fair, absolutely correct.

That's why when we come together to have competition, we do so with boundaries for participation put in place to make things as fair as possible while still letting the cream rise to the top.

If you want to play the "You're cold and heartless" game, your hatred of women is showing through this issue, you misogynist bigot. Hope the women in your life have better advocates than you around them.

 

[Gralin]

Life isn't fair, absolutely correct.

That's why when we come together to have competition, we do so with boundaries for participation put in place to make things as fair as possible while still letting the cream rise to the top.

except if someone doesn't like how the cream looks then we accuse them of being men and remove them for "fairness"

If you want to play the "You're cold and heartless" game, your hatred of women is showing through this issue, you misogynist bigot. Hope the women in your life have better advocates than you around them.

yes its very clear that I hate women because I don't subscribe to the idea that they're fragile second class athletes that need to be segregated from anyone that doesn't look enough like a woman to be able to compete and win

It's pretty clear in the case of Khelif that this is not about fairness, Khelif hasn't dominated the sport, she started her career losing 5 of her first 6 fights, she didn't medal at the Tokyo Olympics

She didn't win the 2022 IBA world championships, she was disqualified before the final of the 2023 championships

You're saying she has an unfair advantage if she has a DSD but her record doesn't show evidence of an unfair advantage, she's lost 9 fights and her biggest wins have been in regional tournaments currently

Yes people are baying for her blood, calling her a cheat, a man, whatever they feel like and discrediting her achievements based on the idea that they aren't earned because a Russian sporting body banned her after she beat a Russian athlete

 

[faible]

seems like it is

you're not interested in the fall out of damage caused by your single minded position on "fairness" in sports

which funnily enough doesn't extend to men or life or anyone that you decide shouldn't be part of sport

those people are told to suck eggs and that life isn't fair

so really its about you and other people deciding what should be allowed for women and girls and then washing your hands of the collateral damage as "not relevant virtue signaling"

Wouldn't this work both ways though?

I've never really seen you try to consider the women competing in the sport.

We know that male puberty is basically the single largest performance enhancing factor in existence.

You can pump women full of steroids - e.g. the running records from the 80s - and it still doesn't close that gap down, despite that (obviously doped) women's 800m record being 1.3 seconds faster than the current fastest runner and Olympic Champion, Hodgkinson.

Athletes with DSD exist somewhere in-between, Semenya's times with and without testosterone limits are markedly different. It's very sad that she had to ensure what she did, I don't think that should ever have played out the way it did. But do we just say 'meh genetic advantage' or do we draw a line <somewhere> like we have done with sex in pretty much every sport I can think of, along with some others like weight in Boxing and Weightlifting.

 

[ShanDog]

You're saying she has an unfair advantage if she has a DSD but her record doesn't show evidence of an unfair advantage, she's lost 9 fights and her biggest wins have been in regional tournaments currently

Being historically shit isn't an excuse to ignore having commonsense rules for eligibility (if that's the case).

 

[ShanDog]

Wouldn't this work both ways though?

I've never really seen you try to consider the women competing in the sport.

We know that male puberty is basically the single largest performance enhancing factor in existence.

You can pump women full of steroids - e.g. the running records from the 80s - and it still doesn't close that gap down, despite that (obviously doped) women's 800m record being 1.3 seconds faster than the current fastest runner and Olympic Champion, Hodgkinson.

Athletes with DSD exist somewhere in-between, Semenya's times with and without testosterone limits are markedly different. It's very sad that she had to ensure what she did, I don't think that should ever have played out the way it did. But do we just say 'meh genetic advantage' or do we draw a line <somewhere> like we have done with sex in pretty much every sport I can think of, along with some others like weight in Boxing and Weightlifting.

Or what should be the very famous example of the Rio 800m women's track final, except hardly anyone seems to know about it.

 

[Gralin]

Wouldn't this work both ways though?

I've never really seen you try to consider the women competing in the sport.

this is just saying the women being attacked aren't actually women, which is the whole you're a misogynist if you don't support the other side's definition of women thing that Shan just went with

We know that male puberty is basically the single largest performance enhancing factor in existence.

You can pump women full of steroids - e.g. the running records from the 80s - and it still doesn't close that gap down, despite that (obviously doped) women's 800m record being 1.3 seconds faster than the current fastest runner and Olympic Champion, Hodgkinson.

Athletes with DSD exist somewhere in-between, Semenya's times with and without testosterone limits are markedly different. It's very sad that she had to ensure what she did, I don't think that should ever have played out the way it did. But do we just say 'meh genetic advantage' or do we draw a line <somewhere> like we have done with sex in pretty much every sport I can think of, along with some others like weight in Boxing and Weightlifting.

sex and gender tests for women in sport has a decades long history of abuse and racism behind it

its still happening now

we know that male puberty has a massive impact yes, its a little more complicated than testosterone go vroom though

the history of segregation in sport is also one largely based on misogyny and protecting mens position at the top of the mountain

you can argue whatever you like about elite sports as evidence of this being correct but until you address everything that happens behind the scenes in elite sport that gives men advantages all the way through re development pathways, funding, priority etc you're not looking at a level playing field for a real comparison

we also have segregation in sports that have no reason for it because of the original political nature of it

men didn't want to compete again women, men didn't want to risk losing to women

but again at the root of this is people deciding what constitutes a woman for the purposes of sport

and that definition doesn't even include all women to begin with

we're not testing and banning men who have "unfair genetic advantages" because apparently men can deal with that

its ok to be Michael Phelps, it's not OK to be Caster Semenya

Sport is not actually fair, there are regulations to create an approximation of fairness, in some cases related to safety

weightlifting has weight classes because your weight impacts the total mass you can shift

there are always more gifted people though regardless of you how segregate sport and what is happening with people like Khelif isn't just deciding she has the wrong kind of gifts, its also a massive online and media driven hate campaign which has racist elements whether they are explicitly mentioned or not

Nobody deserves the kind of abuse or attacks she is getting, trans or cis its wrong, DSD or no DSD its wrong

this idea that people have a right to the bodies of athletes so they can decide if that athlete should be able to compete

the attacks on how women look - (they're transvestigating Katie Ledecky) I've said from the start that all of this doesn't just impact trans women but cis women, I have brought up the history of attacking intersex athletes

my position on all of this hasn't changed, the movement itself is damaging to all women and reduces the safety of all women whether at sport or out in public

this narrow idea of fairness in sport that is built around exclusion has wider impacts than just on the supposed fairness of sport and its pretty all round shit

 

[Gralin]

Being historically shit isn't an excuse to ignore having commonsense rules for eligibility (if that's the case).

so we're beyond fairness now just into your need to exclude people that don't fit in your box because things need to be kept simple

 

[Chief]

I've never really seen you try to consider the women competing in the sport.

Imane is a woman competing in a sport.

 

[ShanDog]

so we're beyond fairness now just into your need to exclude people that don't fit in your box because things need to be kept simple

You never cared about fairness so don't try to argue that now.

 

[faible]

this is just saying the women being attacked aren't actually women, which is the whole you're a misogynist if you don't support the other side's definition of women thing that Shan just went with



sex and gender tests for women in sport has a decades long history of abuse and racism behind it

its still happening now

we know that male puberty has a massive impact yes, its a little more complicated than testosterone go vroom though

the history of segregation in sport is also one largely based on misogyny and protecting mens position at the top of the mountain

you can argue whatever you like about elite sports as evidence of this being correct but until you address everything that happens behind the scenes in elite sport that gives men advantages all the way through re development pathways, funding, priority etc you're not looking at a level playing field for a real comparison

we also have segregation in sports that have no reason for it because of the original political nature of it

men didn't want to compete again women, men didn't want to risk losing to women

but again at the root of this is people deciding what constitutes a woman for the purposes of sport

and that definition doesn't even include all women to begin with

we're not testing and banning men who have "unfair genetic advantages" because apparently men can deal with that

its ok to be Michael Phelps, it's not OK to be Caster Semenya

Sport is not actually fair, there are regulations to create an approximation of fairness, in some cases related to safety

weightlifting has weight classes because your weight impacts the total mass you can shift

there are always more gifted people though regardless of you how segregate sport and what is happening with people like Khelif isn't just deciding she has the wrong kind of gifts, its also a massive online and media driven hate campaign which has racist elements whether they are explicitly mentioned or not

Nobody deserves the kind of abuse or attacks she is getting, trans or cis its wrong, DSD or no DSD its wrong

this idea that people have a right to the bodies of athletes so they can decide if that athlete should be able to compete

the attacks on how women look - (they're transvestigating Katie Ledecky) I've said from the start that all of this doesn't just impact trans women but cis women, I have brought up the history of attacking intersex athletes

my position on all of this hasn't changed, the movement itself is damaging to all women and reduces the safety of all women whether at sport or out in public

this narrow idea of fairness in sport that is built around exclusion has wider impacts than just on the supposed fairness of sport and its pretty all round shit

You're lumping in trans and DSD athletes together, which is common, but they're different.

A lot of what you wrote is emotive arguments. Sport doesn't (just) exist on an emotive spectrum.

There's a very clear performance difference between biological men and biological women at the elite end, where you can assume - as much as is practicable - that we're dealing with equivalently talented and trained athletes. We therefore know that male puberty and all the changes that come with it, is the largest PED that exists. We also know that when you reduce testosterone levels in transgender athletes that the performance advantage declines, in many sports it would appear to decline to a level roughly similar to cisgender women, but there's limited good faith research in this area so in a lot of cases we don't really know the impact.

DSD conditions seem to exist somewhere between the two biological plateaus of performance, perhaps not dissimilar to a cisgender woman on steroids. Is there a genetic condition that effects men that improves performance that much?

I've never argued that Semenya - or anyone else - deserves the abuse levelled at her, so that's all pretty besides the point. If you want to discuss this stuff, perhaps you should actually discuss it instead of throwing a heap of mud at the wall? This is the kind of thing you'd get upset at others for doing.

 

[faible]

Imane is a woman competing in a sport.

Add <other> before women then if you're finding yourself hung up on that and ignoring everything else.

 

[ShanDog]

sex and gender tests for women in sport has a decades long history of abuse and racism behind it

its still happening now

Vast majority of female athletes support sex testing. It's none invasive and needs to be done once, that's it.

you can argue whatever you like about elite sports as evidence of this being correct but until you address everything that happens behind the scenes in elite sport that gives men advantages all the way through re development pathways, funding, priority etc you're not looking at a level playing field for a real comparison

We can chew bugglegum and walk at the same time.

this narrow idea of fairness in sport that is built around exclusion has wider impacts than just on the supposed fairness of sport and its pretty all round shit

Sounds great until we decide it's ok for me to box women.

 

[Chief]

Add <other> before women then if you're finding yourself hung up on that and ignoring everything else.

It's still you splitting them into "women" and "other".

 

[Kram]

No, sometimes life gives you lemons.

You are in the physical peak of your life, having trained meticulously for years to squeeze every last possible but of performance out of your body. You've leapt every hurdle along the way, winning your way into the Olympics and get to a final... Then turn to your right and... Michael flipping Phelps is there. Balls. Suddenly, just like the 13 year old Bangladeshi boy who is watching on one of the few TVs on the street, or the middle aged man in the stands who hurt his back when he was 19 and could never reach great heights, or the islander who has never seen a competitive swimming event in his life because there's no Olympic sized pool anywhere near him - you've got no hope of winning.

A small mind would believe these two situations are the same. But they aren't. Phelps is a male. Everyone else he was competing against was a male. We separate male and female sports because - as evidenced by people like Phelps - males have a much higher potential ceiling for performance. The alternative is to believe the idea that since people like Phelps exist, it demonstrates that everyone already has a genetic advantage or disadvantage already, so what do these categories matter anyway? And the answer to that is no - get absolutely ****ed.

Kind of sad that you had to use so many words to explain something that should just be basic common sense.

 

[faible]

It's still you splitting them into "women" and "other".

I can clarify if that helps matters; you have biological women who haven't undergone the performance enhancing advantages of male puberty and don't have a DSD condition resulting in elevated testosterone, these make up the bulk of participants in the sports. You have a handful of biological women who've not undergone male puberty but do have a DSD resulting in elevated testosterone. You have another handful of women who have undergone male puberty, but if they're allowed to compete are likely medicated in some way to reduce any performance advantage.

When I said 'the women competing in the sport' it would largely - but not exclusively - refer to the majority of the current participants in that sport. When Gralin comments, as far as I can tell at least, he takes the position of including the minority - e.g. DSD athletes or transgender athletes - and doesn't particularly seem to care what the current participants think or want. Which is fine at a macro level perhaps, or at a community level, but when we're talking elite sport - especially contact or combat sport - there's issues that appear to arise with that position.

I apologise if by using the word 'women' instead of lining out the above that it made it unclear to whom I was referring to.

 

[Chief]

I can clarify if that helps matters; you have biological women who haven't undergone the performance enhancing advantages of male puberty and don't have a DSD condition resulting in elevated testosterone, these make up the bulk of participants in the sports. You have a handful of biological women who've not undergone male puberty but do have a DSD resulting in elevated testosterone. You have another handful of women who have undergone male puberty, but if they're allowed to compete are likely medicated in some way to reduce any performance advantage.

Imane has not gone through a male puberty. Male puberty in trans women is shown to be largely dissipated after they have been in treatment for a period of time.

Who are you talking about? Specifically, I mean. Names of people shown to be in this situation.

 

[ShanDog]

Imane has not gone through a male puberty. Male puberty in trans women is shown to be largely dissipated after they have been in treatment for a period of time.

Who are you talking about? Specifically, I mean. Names of people shown to be in this situation.

How are you saying this with such certainty? The IBA is claiming Khelif has a DSD and the IOC minced words to ensure that they specifically didn't state she doesn't have a DSD (rather that this isn't a trans issue). At this stage, the presence of a DSD is speculation, but you are definitive about there not being one.

As for examples of going through male puberty, Caster Semenya is the very well known example, having 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency. Similarly, the top three placing (i.e. all the medalists) from the Rio 800 m women's track final were women with DSDs who had the advantage of testosterone levels in the male range to enhance physical performance.

Wikipedia article on the event:

All three medalists have been found to have the 46,XY karyotype and produce levels of testosterone in the male range,[4] which enables building of greater muscle mass and better processing of energy.[5] The IAAF has subsequently ruled that this gives them an unfair advantage. On May 8, 2019, the IAAF testosterone rule went into effect. Such athletes will be required to take testosterone suppressing drugs in order to compete with female athletes.[6]

 

[ShanDog]

And to emphasise the point in case you are fluffy on the specific, the particular DSD that Caster Semenya means they are biologically male. This is not in question and is the technical medical classification of them. Some DSDs aren't quirks without notable consequences - some totally change the game.

 

[faible]

Imane has not gone through a male puberty. Male puberty in trans women is shown to be largely dissipated after they have been in treatment for a period of time.

Who are you talking about? Specifically, I mean. Names of people shown to be in this situation.

Imane we don't know for sure do we?

Someone like Semenya would likely have been in the second category I wrote (though on further reading she might not);

biological women who've not undergone male puberty but do have a DSD resulting in elevated testosterone

Maybe there's an additional or better way to describe someone like Semenya given there's not a massive amount publicly known, but she's noted as having the below condition on her Wikipedia entry:

5α-Reductase 2 deficiency - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Disorders of sex development - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Notes the below regarding this condition:

5α-reductase deficiency (5-ARD) – an autosomal recessive condition caused by a mutation of the 5-alpha reductase type 2 gene. It only affects people with Y chromosomes, namely genetic males. People with this condition are fertile, with the ability to father children, but may be raised as females due to ambiguous or feminized genitalia.

Imane I've no idea where she would fall specifically given we know almost nothing.

Regarding the bolded part of what you quoted, are you asking for examples of athletes?

 

[Chief]

How are you saying this with such certainty?

Nobody has shown otherwise, so there's no evidence of it, so... it's not a thing.

 

[Chief]

Imane I've no idea where she would fall specifically given we know almost nothing.

Going by social media and news, apparently we know everything because transdar.

Scratch the surface and we actually know nothing.

 

[ShanDog]

Nobody has shown otherwise, so there's no evidence of it, so... it's not a thing.

With the restrictions on releasing private information etc, it would appear this is an unrealistic standard to reach unless someone were to be happy to break the law.

 

[Chief]

With the restrictions on releasing private information etc, it would appear this is an unrealistic standard to reach unless someone were to be happy to break the law.

Don't know that people's guesses should trump everything else.

 

[Randomizor]

As horrible as this time must be for the poor athlete it’s nice after so many years of hearing “gender is defined by what genitals you were born with” from a certain section of society, we are now hearing “Well it’s more complicated than just that”. That’s a step in the right direction.

 

[BlueE]

Imane has not gone through a male puberty.

What is the evidence for that?