Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Chief]

What is the evidence for that?

Where is the evidence she has?

 

[BlueE]

As horrible as this time must be for the poor athlete it’s nice after so many years of hearing “gender is defined by what genitals you were born with” from a certain section of society, we are now hearing “Well it’s more complicated than just that”. That’s a step in the right direction.

What if Khelif was born male and the genitals wrongly identified as female.

There are many examples of exactly this situation. The person produces testosterone at puberty and develops normally as a male.

 

[BlueE]

Where is the evidence she has?

SO there is none and you are wrongly stating a fact?

 

[Chief]

SO there is none and you are wrongly stating a fact?

Prove the claim she did. Until then, I've got no reason to believe she did.

 

[ShanDog]

Don't know that people's guesses should trump everything else.

No, I agree they shouldn't, but it's perfectly reasonable for people to suspect things and say as such.

 

[ShanDog]

As horrible as this time must be for the poor athlete it’s nice after so many years of hearing “gender is defined by what genitals you were born with” from a certain section of society, we are now hearing “Well it’s more complicated than just that”. That’s a step in the right direction.

I'm not sure it's the same section. That section is taking still shots of the video and circling bulges in the shorts...

 

[BlueE]

Where is the evidence she has?

From the IBA press conference, two tests were done on Khelif and Lin during the World Cup in 2022 and analysed in Turkey. They did not publicly specify the tests, but Kremlev alleged through a translator in the press conference that the tests showed elevated levels of testosterone.

The chromosomes test was repeated at the World Cup in India in 2023, which confirmed the 2022 results. Both boxers failed the gender eligibility for the tournament, which was to have XX chromosomes. Both boxers were banned.

Then there are obvious secondary sex characteristic of a male.

 

[Chief]

Again, I don't trust Kremlev at all, and that's not any proof they went through a "male puberty" in any case.

 

[BlueE]

With the restrictions on releasing private information etc, it would appear this is an unrealistic standard to reach unless someone were to be happy to break the law.

There is plenty of evidence but the IOC doesn't want to establish facts and doesn't need to with their gender eligibility just going by what the passport says.

There are serious safety concerns two countries have complained about already that the IOC are responsible for. Then the shit storm around the two boxers, or Khelif in particular that could have been avoided if they allowed independent doctors and laboratory tests.

 

[BlueE]

Again, I don't trust Kremlev at all, and that's not any proof they went through a "male puberty" in any case.

Like Kremlev or not he is not the only person to allege previously the test showed high testosterone. However, it was not a test they repeated in 2023, because it was not an eligibility condition for the 2023 World Cup.

Having XY chromosomes and high testosterones levels with secondary male sex characteristics is evidence of going through male puberty.

Yet you repeatedly claim false facts with no evidence.

 

[Chief]

Oh well. Agree to disagree.

 

[kirsti]

You're lumping in trans and DSD athletes together, which is common, but they're different.

A lot of what you wrote is emotive arguments. Sport doesn't (just) exist on an emotive spectrum.

There's a very clear performance difference between biological men and biological women at the elite end, where you can assume - as much as is practicable - that we're dealing with equivalently talented and trained athletes. We therefore know that male puberty and all the changes that come with it, is the largest PED that exists. We also know that when you reduce testosterone levels in transgender athletes that the performance advantage declines, in many sports it would appear to decline to a level roughly similar to cisgender women, but there's limited good faith research in this area so in a lot of cases we don't really know the impact.

DSD conditions seem to exist somewhere between the two biological plateaus of performance, perhaps not dissimilar to a cisgender woman on steroids. Is there a genetic condition that effects men that improves performance that much?

I've never argued that Semenya - or anyone else - deserves the abuse levelled at her, so that's all pretty besides the point. If you want to discuss this stuff, perhaps you should actually discuss it instead of throwing a heap of mud at the wall? This is the kind of thing you'd get upset at others for doing.

Thanks for this. Interestingly the IAAF has been trying to prove DSD women have an advantage but after 15 years they have not produced a single study that shows athletes like Caster have any advantage at all.

Their biggest study of T, over the 11 events, the biggest advantage was found in the womens 100m running. The low T females had a 5% advantage over the low T females.

Cheung et al. which I co-authores
found there is a reduction in physical performance in ALL outcome measures after feminising GAHT.

The physical performance of trans women reduces to that of sis female controls after just 2 years.

We are now seeing studies showing trans women Kg for kg are less stronger than both cis men and women.

Response to Letter to the Editor From Kirk & Stebbings: The Impact of Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy on Physical Performance

We thank Kirk and Stebbings for their interest in our paper (1). Kirk and Stebbings raise the point of absolute vs relative measures (2). Elite physical or

academic.oup.com

The Impact of Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy on Physical Performance

AbstractContext. The inclusion of transgender people in elite sport has been a topic of debate. This narrative review examines the impact of gender-affirmi

academic.oup.com

Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Chief]

the IAAF has been trying to prove DSD women have an advantage but after 15 years they have not produced a single study that shows athletes like Caster have any advantage at all.

Thanks.

The "been through male puberty" argument looks like begging the question.

 

[Chief]

DSD conditions seem to exist somewhere between the two biological plateaus of performance, perhaps not dissimilar to a cisgender woman on steroids.

Can you show you're working on this one?

 

[BlueE]

Thanks.

The "been through male puberty" argument looks like begging the question.

Not talking about trans or DSD women.

DSD male with XY chromosomes going through male puberty.

 

[faible]

Thanks.

The "been through male puberty" argument looks like begging the question.

Not at all, it was making a clear delineation in regard to athletes in various situations that are all referred to as women but have differing biological histories. I suspect you've drastically misconstrued what I was trying to convey if you've taken that impression away.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Me over here thinking there'd be some kind of retreat when it became obvious this was just more Russian nonsense.

 

[faible]

Thanks for this. Interestingly the IAAF has been trying to prove DSD women have an advantage but after 15 years they have not produced a single study that shows athletes like Caster have any advantage at all.

Their biggest study of T, over the 11 events, the biggest advantage was found in the womens 100m running. The low T females had a 5% advantage over the low T females.

Cheung et al. which I co-authores
found there is a reduction in physical performance in ALL outcome measures after feminising GAHT.

The physical performance of trans women reduces to that of sis female controls after just 2 years.

We are now seeing studies showing trans women Kg for kg are less stronger than both cis men and women.

Response to Letter to the Editor From Kirk & Stebbings: The Impact of Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy on Physical Performance

We thank Kirk and Stebbings for their interest in our paper (1). Kirk and Stebbings raise the point of absolute vs relative measures (2). Elite physical or

academic.oup.com

The Impact of Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy on Physical Performance

AbstractContext. The inclusion of transgender people in elite sport has been a topic of debate. This narrative review examines the impact of gender-affirmi

academic.oup.com

Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

This is going from memory; wasn't there a bit of a weird finding that elite sprinters had unusually low T levels in one of the studies that was used as a reference, thus why they ended up with the 100m not being an event Semenya (or other athletes) would have to reduce their T levels in?

 

[faible]

Can you show you're working on this one?

I said 'seem'. If you look at Semenya's times with and without her Testosterone levels medicated that might give an indication of the impact on her performance. Yes, that's a n=1 sample size so it's not something that should be used to draw conclusions for every athlete in that situation.

 

[Chief]

Not at all, it was making a clear delineation in regard to athletes in various situations that are all referred to as women but have differing biological histories. I suspect you've drastically misconstrued what I was trying to convey if you've taken that impression away.

Yes I am confused how this idea of "going through male puberty" fits in your model.

 

[faible]

Yes I am confused how this idea of "going through male puberty" fits in your model.

There's a number of women that underwent male puberty and compete in sport. Again, I suspect you've drastically misconstrued what I was trying to convey and are now fishing around for something that's not there.

 

[ElectricG]

Hypothetically what if she is confirmed to have a Y chromosome? Is it fair for her to compete?

 

[Chief]

There's a number of women that underwent male puberty and compete in sport. Again, I suspect you've drastically misconstrued what I was trying to convey and are now fishing around for something that's not there.

Then I'm trying to figure out what you're actually saying.

Im sure the fault is mine.

 

[faible]

Then I'm trying to figure out what you're actually saying.

Im sure the fault is mine.

Transgender women usually (but not always, depending on whether they medicate early enough to avoid it AFAIK) experience male puberty and the ensuing changes that brings. The relevant point for performances purposes would appear to be the 'male puberty' component. A lot of the research kristi posts is around the level of advantage that exists over time as hormone levels are reduced.

I've not seen any research looking at transgender athletes that haven't undergone male puberty to know where they would fit on the performance spectrum, maybe kirsti knows of anything out there, but my assumption was that they didn't have the same performance ceiling as those who did experience male puberty.

 

[ShanDog]

Thanks for this. Interestingly the IAAF has been trying to prove DSD women have an advantage but after 15 years they have not produced a single study that shows athletes like Caster have any advantage at all.

They seem pretty confident in their research and decisions on the matter:

World Athletics Council decides on Russia, Belarus and female eligibility | PRESS-RELEASES | World Athletics

The World Athletics Council has today made a number of important decisions regarding the future participation of the Russian and Belarusian Member Federations in athletics, and the eligibility regulations for athletes who are transgender or who have Differences of Sexual Development

worldathletics.org

"In terms of DSD regulations, World Athletics has more than ten years of research and evidence of the physical advantages that these athletes bring to the female category."