Ukraine on verge of civil war?

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NTRabbit said:
That's Imperial Russia, which also at the time included the country now known as Finland - do you advocate the modern Russian Federation being able to simply invade and take all of Finland as well? How about Alaska? Parts of Poland? How about Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia?

Using the territorial boundaries of the 18th and 19th century Russian Empire to determine what is and is not Russian today is the ridiculous nonsense that underpins the great propaganda campaign for Novorossiya, the long term Russian hardliner plan to seize any territory they feel they ought to own and displace the local populations.
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I'm waiting for the inevitable attempt to claim Alaska by the Russians and state that the agreement to transfer it to America in the 1800's is now null & void.
 
TheHeatleyStand said:
changing your tune much?

what convoy?
there's no proof of anything you're suggesting
you're merely parroting stuff that's been done to death over multiple wars and proven as lies

we've heard all this before mate.. phone intercepts, wmd caravans been moved around the country

and you know what? they never even said sorry after creating a war in Iraq that's killed over a million souls

you need to understand most people in the world outside the West are not going to fall for it again

and many within the West!

western media and western intelligence sources are very hard time believe by any clear thinker

why did it happen?

form!
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TASS is a state sponsored Russian news media outlet that reports mostly pro Kremlin propaganda nonsense. They reported that the Donbass separatists had shot down an aircraft near Torez on July 17th 2014. The report is still on their website - this is a fact that you cannot deny. This source is anti-western in every possible way and they reported that the separatists shot the plane down.

MH17 crashed near the village of Hrabove after being shutdown by a Russian SAM system placed near Snizhe. I've even posted a map for you:

https://www.viamichelin.com/web/Rou...Ukraine-to-Hrabove-_-Donets_ka_oblast-Ukraine



Once again, you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. It is 100% confirmed that Russian sources reported that the Donbass separatists shot down a plane they believed to be an AN-26 (which was actually MH17) on July 17th. I know it's hard for you to accept over at the internet research agency in St Petersburg but it is reality buddy.
 
Russia has no interest in Alaska

and Ukraine doesn't have Crimea

was/is and will always be Russian

what Khruschev did was a Soviet decision

I'm not sure what you think I'm lying about

yes Crimea was to stay a Russian port for fifty years and that was an agreement
but also agreed between Reagan and Gorby was that Nato would not establish bases in former Soviet nations

The thing is you need to keep your word

this is just more encroachment by nato

NATO is falling apart anyway

too much vassal master relations there with everybody expected to pay more tribute than they want

of course if you don't want to cough the money up it's because you're not really scared of being attacked

ah dilemmas

Ukraine certainly can't afford anything and nobody wants to pay forUkraine

which is why no hurry to admit Ukraine into the EU

they're going to kick that can down the road for as long as they can knowing they don't want Ukraine in the EU and that Russia will have to pick up the pieces- which it will!


The long game is Ukraine and Russia will mostly kiss and make up
Ukraine gets no benefit not having affectionate ties with its biggest trading partner and it's bigger brother

The ukienazis will have to run away soon
 

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Zidane98 said:
TASS is a state sponsored Russian news media outlet that reports mostly pro Kremlin propaganda nonsense. They reported that the Donbass separatists had shot down an aircraft near Torez on July 17th 2014. The report is still on their website - this is a fact that you cannot deny. This source is anti-western in every possible way and they reported that the separatists shot the plane down.

MH17 crashed near the village of Hrabove after being shutdown by a Russian SAM system placed near Snizhe. I've even posted a map for you:

https://www.viamichelin.com/web/Rou...Ukraine-to-Hrabove-_-Donets_ka_oblast-Ukraine



Once again, you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. It is 100% confirmed that Russian sources reported that the Donbass separatists shot down a plane they believed to be an AN-26 (which was actually MH17) on July 17th. I know it's hard for you to accept over at the internet research agency in St Petersburg but it is reality buddy.
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was confirmed that Saddam had Wmd also
everything you use as evidence Phone intercepts and moving things around were also used back then
problem is none of it was true and over a
million innocent people's lives were extinguished

so we must be more vigilant when we're looking at sources handed by intelligence services today also

you don't agree?

I would like to think we are more careful to buy into stuff like this today

I certainly learnt

what about you?
 
TheHeatleyStand said:
was confirmed that Saddam had Wmd also
everything you use as evidence Phone intercepts and moving things around were also used back then
problem is none of it was true and over a
million innocent people's lives were extinguished

so we must be more vigilant when we're looking at sources handed by intelligence services today also

you don't agree?

I would like to think we are more careful to buy into stuff like this today

I certainly learnt

what about you?
Click to expand...

Hahaha that's a lot of nonsensical ramblings to not answer the question put to you.

So I will ask again and this time a yes or no will suffice as an answer.

Is TASS a pro Kremlin state sponsored media outlet?

Did TASS report that Donbass separatists had shot down an aircraft near Tores on July 17th 2014?

Yes or No answer for both questions please.
 
Zidane98 said:
TASS is a state sponsored Russian news media outlet that reports mostly pro Kremlin propaganda nonsense. They reported that the Donbass separatists had shot down an aircraft near Torez on July 17th 2014.

the Donbass separatists shot down a plane they believed to be an AN-26 (which was actually MH17) on July 17th. .
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Just being a bit facetious here (or maybe not :) ) but if indeed the Donbass separatists shot down the plane as stated above then would it not be accurate to conclude that

(i) the passenger plane was shot down accidently (not deliberately) - hence we could say that it was "collateral damage" (to use USA terminology) and in the circumstances of a war zone then the people most at fault should be those who directed the plane to fly over such a risky route

(ii) the Donbass separatists who shot it down are still Ukrainian (not yet part of Russia), therefore Ukrainians themselves shot it down.
 
official documentions with countless minutes of the meetings prove you and your sites to be wrong) false or poorly informed again

This is getting rather alarming
that all of your arguments can be so uniformed and inaccurate

you're probably a great example of what happens when you believe what mainstream media repeats over and over

a poorly informed populace that's dumbed down with fake news
 
johnnypanther said:
Just being a bit facetious here (or maybe not :) ) but if indeed the Donbass separatists shot down the plane as stated above then would it not be accurate to conclude that

(i) the passenger plane was shot down accidently (not deliberately) - hence we could say that it was "collateral damage" (to use USA terminology) and in the circumstances of a war zone then the people most at fault should be those who directed the plane to fly over such a risky route

(ii) the Donbass separatists who shot it down are still Ukrainian (not yet part of Russia), therefore Ukrainians themselves shot it down.
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before we go to those scenarios we must have concrete proof about who did it and why/ how
 
ok because I know you don't like investigating things properly in a very scholarly manner but prefer to swallow any lines that you're fed or believe

just to debunk your arguments even further
here's the short of it

The West has been lying all along even about this

so should we believe everything we are told?

I don't!

we need to try to examine things and the context to understand we really need transparency to believe stuff that do not make sense!
 
johnnypanther said:
Just being a bit facetious here (or maybe not :) ) but if indeed the Donbass separatists shot down the plane as stated above then would it not be accurate to conclude that

(i) the passenger plane was shot down accidently (not deliberately) - hence we could say that it was "collateral damage" (to use USA terminology) and in the circumstances of a war zone then the people most at fault should be those who directed the plane to fly over such a risky route

(ii) the Donbass separatists who shot it down are still Ukrainian (not yet part of Russia), therefore Ukrainians themselves shot it down.
Click to expand...

The separatists had military support from Russia. That included a SAM missile launcher which was transported into Ukraine on the morning of July 17th 2014.

33000 feet above Donbass is not a war zone. Hundreds of flights a day passed through the area.

Russia should have formally notified Euro control and Ukranian ATC that they were going to fire on aircraft at will. If they did the airspace above East Ukraine would have been closed immediately (as it was after the aircraft was shot down).

You can't blame those who filed a legal flight plan through European authorities.

You can blame Russia for providing a SAM system to be used in another country with no safety measures at all to prevent an accidental shoot down. It is akin to giving a 2 year old a shot gun.
 
Zidane98 said:
The separatists had military support from Russia. That included a SAM missile launcher which was transported into Ukraine on the morning of July 17th 2014.

33000 feet above Donbass is not a war zone. Hundreds of flights a day passed through the area.

Russia should have formally notified Euro control and Ukranian ATC that they were going to fire on aircraft at will. If they did the airspace above East Ukraine would have been closed immediately (as it was after the aircraft was shot down).

You can't blame those who filed a legal flight plan through European authorities.

You can blame Russia for providing a SAM system to be used in another country with no safety measures at all to prevent an accidental shoot down. It is akin to giving a 2 year old a shot gun.
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you keep harping on stuff that you have no evidence for

so far all you've managed to show us is that you regurgitate everything and anything you can clutch at

there's no real evidence for that

even Julia Bishop is saying its the most likely conclusion
not that she has seen any real evidence to prove her agenda also

what I'm asking you is not for flimsy stuff but for real stuff

not buks being moved with suggested persuasion to Ukraine when they're just generic images lol

look mate if they had conclusive evidence it wouldn't take four years for Bishop to say it's the most "likely scenario"

and the Malaysians to warm about being too hasty in judging

you've been wrong on many counts all along this thread
but that one is the cherry on the cake
The Star on the Xmas tree of untruths you've been sprouting

The investigation isn't neutral and they're still having problems coming up with any kind of link that is credible four years in
 

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by the way Ukraine is in the middle of a civil war that most people don't want

but it won't involve NATO or the USA directly

ultimately it will simmer down and will return to normal with Crimea Russian

or it will split into two with the EU having to come up with a Marshall plan to keep the weaker West side going

something they won't want to do with all their problems

The attempt to sever Ukraine from Russia didn't and wont work

people are getting weary of the fake promises

and time is on Russia's side

The people who delivered the coup will get no sympathy by the time this over
 
TheHeatleyStand said:
you keep harping on stuff that you have no evidence for

so far all you've managed to show us is that you regurgitate everything and anything you can clutch at

there's no real evidence for that

even Julia Bishop is saying its the most likely conclusion
not that she has seen any real evidence to prove her agenda also

what I'm asking you is not for flimsy stuff but for real stuff

not buks being moved with suggested persuasion to Ukraine when they're just generic images lol

look mate if they had conclusive evidence it wouldn't take four years for Bishop to say it's the most "likely scenario"

and the Malaysians to warm about being too hasty in judging

you've been wrong on many counts all along this thread
but that one is the cherry on the cake
The Star on the Xmas tree of untruths you've been sprouting

The investigation isn't neutral and they're still having problems coming up with any kind of link that is credible four years in
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Stop living in a fantasy world. Stop telling outright lies.

TASS - your Russian friends that you so adore - reported themselves your scumbag sepatatist mates shooting down a plane on July 17. Not the West , not the "right sektor" - Russian sources themselves reported it as it happened.

No matter how desperately you deflect with propaganda nonsense nothing changes that fact.

I know that's hard for you to process at the internet research agency in St Petersburg and probably way above your 41000 rouble / month pay grade.
 
Zidane98 said:
Stop living in a fantasy world. Stop telling outright lies.

TASS - your Russian friends that you so adore - reported themselves your scumbag sepatatist mates shooting down a plane on July 17. Not the West , not the "right sektor" - Russian sources themselves reported it as it happened.

No matter how desperately you deflect with propaganda nonsense nothing changes that fact.

I know that's hard for you to process at the internet research agency in St Petersburg and probably way above your 41000 rouble / month pay grade.
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haha that's not proof mate

you said you have undeniable proof
syndicated journalism works the same way
Elliott Higgins stay home pop is even worse


I'm asking you to provide the proof that you're sitting on to prove your argument

you're having an awfully difficult time grasping all this

you're throwing around red herring after red herring and a bunch of falsehoods

I'm asking for proof

surely you cant be serious with your argument that you know the truth with that fluff you're picking up on lol
 
TheHeatleyStand said:
haha that's not proof mate

you said you have undeniable proof
syndicated journalism works the same way
Elliott Higgins stay home pop is even worse


I'm asking you to provide the proof that you're sitting on to prove your argument

you're having an awfully difficult time grasping all this

you're throwing around red herring after red herring and a bunch of falsehoods

I'm asking for proof

surely you cant be serious with your argument that you know the truth with that fluff you're picking up on lol
Click to expand...

I'll make it simple for you.


TASS reported the separatists shooting down an aircraft on July 17 2014. That news report remains to this very day on the TASS website.

This is a fact.


TASS is a Russian state sponsored media outlet. It holds no allegiances whatsoever to western countries / governments in any shape or form.

No matter what accusations you make this remains a fact. You contInge to ignore this and fail to address this in your replies. I can only assume this is because you haven't been taught a reply by your superiors at the internet research agency over in St Petersburg.
 
smokingjacket said:
This is a pretty fair take but it's also not what you were saying before. There's obviously a huge difference between a direct and indirect action but people, I even will lay blame at the feet of the US for their actions in Afghanistan in the 80's so the flipside is acknowledging the role Russia played in arming a poorly trained separatist militia with SAM.
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Direct & indirect responsibility is a grey area, I agree with you there.

Either way Russia are involved and should take responsibility.

Also no chance the separatists knew how to operate a SAM system. It was a Russian military crew taking orders from separatist commanders. A despicable act when it was known by the Russians / separstists that hundreds of flights every day traverse the region. They also could have simply downloaded flightradar24 which would have told them pretty quickly that a commercial flight was approaching the area.
 
Zidane98 said:
Direct & indirect responsibility is a grey area, I agree with you there.

Either way Russia are involved and should take responsibility.

Also no chance the separatists knew how to operate a SAM system. It was a Russian military crew taking orders from separatist commanders. A despicable act when it was known by the Russians / separstists that hundreds of flights every day traverse the region. They also could have simply downloaded flightradar24 which would have told them pretty quickly that a commercial flight was approaching the area.
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You can't say this unequivocally when you have provided nothing by way of substantiated evidence to back up your claims.....Which are merely backed by Western MSM manufactured consent & nothing else besides.....Empty posturing repeated rhetoric, does not substitute for evidence nor an argument.

The Ukrainian coup was all U.S manufactured.....There is singularly no argument about that.
 
Procrastinator35 said:
You can't say this unequivocally when you have provided nothing by way of substantiated evidence to back up your claims.....Which are merely backed by Western MSM manufactured consent & nothing else besides.....Empty posturing repeated rhetoric, does not substitute for evidence nor an argument.

The Ukrainian coup was all U.S manufactured.....There is singularly no argument about that.
Click to expand...

The very fact you are arguing this pretty much confirms it actually happened. You also didn't read many posts as TASS (a Russian propaganda outlet you probably know well) reported the separatists shooting down a plane on July 17th 2014. That report is still up on the TASS website.

Anyway I am genuinely surprised that you aren't banned as per normal after one of your typical incoherent nonsensical rants.
 
Just to embarrass you further both enjoy this LifeNews report (Russian media outlet) that was subsequently removed (but thankfully saved by someone):







How nice of them to confirm that MH17 was shot down over territory controlled by rebels.



I do note the change of tune after they discovered that the separatists had murdered 298 innocent civilians.



Please note: Lifenews is a pro Kremlin propaganda outlet. So neither of you can claim this to be a case of "western lies / MSM / evil zionists / right sektor / nazi / fascists - this is straight from the mouth of your Russian mates.
 
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you keep missing the point
on one hand you say that news service is propaganda and on the other you're using it as your evidence even if there's no evidence in that short lol

again we are asking for the evidence.. and you don't get what we are asking you lol

you need to show evidence not show a show you have been discrediting as your evidence when there's no evidence in the story it provides

lol

hilarious watching you
 

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Ukraine on verge of civil war?

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