2nds VFL Grand Final - Geelong v Box Hill, Etihad Stadium, 2:10PM Sunday 22 September

[Chappycats]

When have either of our current KPDs (both of whom are generally acknowledged to have been among the best going round over the past 3-4 years) shown any mongrel? Enright and Guthrie aren't great ones in the 'mongrel' stakes either. Why do people think this is such a vital trait?

I'm not talking about the type of mongrel by going out and belting blokes, I'm talking about that desire and determination to not be beaten, fighting tooth and nail for every contest and I think you would be hard pressed to find any of those you mentioned pull out of a contest or not put themselves on the line when needed. I definitely think its a vital trait for a KP player and an inside mid. Could be a much better player if he played with more intensity.

 

[AM]

Very well argued post Badtemperedbadger.

You are right to suggest the GF result today was only one game. However, performing when it counts and where it counts defines players’ worth.

Today our up-n-comers were pitted against a team which included up-n-comers they are likely to be measured against at senior level in the future. Their younger group essentially showed they could perform under pressure in a high stakes game. There’s a question mark over some of ours.

The measure of players is how they perform in high stakes games when the pressure is intense and sustained. Let’s hope it’s a learning experience and the players we are likely to be depending on show that today was merely a hiccup and they can produce when it counts and where it counts in the future. Today was discouraging though, it needs to be said.

 

[cats_09]

Yesterday was disappointing, especially considering the season our VFL guys had. But retrospectively, 3 things come to mind:

- Was our run over the past 13 games too easy? Not sure of the stat going into the GF, but last week with the winning streak we were on we had an average winning margin of over 11 goals or something crazy and only 1 win under 20 points. That looks to be great form, but the reverse of that is that we weren't tested on the run home. We won our 2 previous finals by 49 & 82 points which is too easy and come the day it matters most, we get pressured and the players have to look at plan B, C, & D which is something they haven't had to do and found it hard to do. We last played Box Hill in Round 3; maybe playing them in round 16/17, and having a hard slog would have been better for us.

- We lacked the AFL experience we had last year and that the Hawks had today. Last year our VFL premiership team into Wojo & Byrnes (over 300 AFL games experience alone between those 2 guys). Today, our most experienced AFL player was Troy Selwood who played 75 AFL but nothing since 2010, so looking at our own current AFL listed guys it was T. Hunt with 56 followed by West with 54 - in total, our current AFL listed players who played today have 199 games of AFL experience (if my maths is correct). The Hawks today had Osborne who alone has played 168 games, Savage has played 56 and I think something like 332 games looking at the players I recognised as AFL listed players. That is a difference of about 133 AFL games and maybe having some more experience in the side in a big match like this helped; I don't think we can underestimate the value of experience.

- Crazy as this sounds; some of those Hawks players had more to play for today than we did - not just the chance to win a VFL premiership, but at least 1 spot has opened up in the seniors for next week with Whitecross out. So guys like Spanger, Simpkin & Savage were not only playing to win today, but for the chance to play in an AFL premiership which may have seen them step it up rather than if this was just the end of the season for them.

Disappointed to lose, but on the positive side we are getting games & development into our youth - Murdoch got the chance to play in a prelim on Friday night which is great experience for him, our VFL players have played in back-to-back grand finals which is additional games of development for them. Neither of our teams got the results we would have wanted this year, but to make a prelim in the AFL and the grand final in the VFL says the club is doing something right.

 

[mcwilrob]

Yesterday was disappointing, especially considering the season our VFL guys had. But retrospectively, 3 things come to mind:

- Crazy as this sounds; some of those Hawks players had more to play for today than we did - not just the chance to win a VFL premiership, but at least 1 spot has opened up in the seniors for next week with Whitecross out. So guys like Spanger, Simpkin & Savage were not only playing to win today, but for the chance to play in an AFL premiership which may have seen them step it up rather than if this was just the end of the season for them.

Disappointed to lose, but on the positive side we are getting games & development into our youth - Murdoch got the chance to play in a prelim on Friday night which is great experience for him, our VFL players have played in back-to-back grand finals which is additional games of development for them. Neither of our teams got the results we would have wanted this year, but to make a prelim in the AFL and the grand final in the VFL says the club is doing something right.

I would have thought the chance of a VFL premiership would provide more than enough motivation vs. the*chance* of a spot in the AFL for the Box Hill players?!!!

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

seriously?
Lonergan is a schizo, he's often run backwards into packs and without fear of losing that 2nd kidney of his, Enright and Guthrie win their own ball and actually hit packs with momentum. Mitch does neither of these and what's even more embarrassing is watching a bloke 196cm get the ball but then get tackled to ground by some kid half his size when he should be trying to shrug the tackles away and using his momentum in those situations to best use but he does neither.
He's a like boy scout.

Mongrel =/= courage

Scarlett had mongrel. Taylor and Lonergan don't.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I'm not talking about the type of mongrel by going out and belting blokes, I'm talking about that desire and determination to not be beaten, fighting tooth and nail for every contest and I think you would be hard pressed to find any of those you mentioned pull out of a contest or not put themselves on the line when needed. I definitely think its a vital trait for a KP player and an inside mid. Could be a much better player if he played with more intensity.

So I assume you have a few examples of Brown not putting himself on the line yesterday? He was the least of the team's problems yesterday. People just see what they want to see with players like him and West (whom a lot of people are hilariously suggesting was awful yesterday).

 

[Seeds]

Mongrel =/= courage

Scarlett had mongrel. Taylor and Lonergan don't.

Lonergan is the most courageous player in the team. More so than Scarlett. To run back into packs the way he does after what happened to him is unbelievable.

 

[Seeds]

So I assume you have a few examples of Brown not putting himself on the line yesterday? He was the least of the team's problems yesterday. People just see what they want to see with players like him and West (whom a lot of people are hilariously suggesting was awful yesterday).

The issue with Brown isn't that he doesn't put his body on the line. It is that he has no body. He gets pushed aside like a rag doll. Brown will never be an AFL player. Smart people recognized it 2-3 years ago. A lot of the not still intelligent football supporters are still trying to figure this out. And please don't compare him to Mackie. He does not have the mobility to be a flanker.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Lonergan is the most courageous player in the team. More so than Scarlett. To run back into packs the way he does after what happened to him is unbelievable.

It doesn't seem to be getting through...

Mongrel =/= courage

The issue with Brown isn't that he doesn't put his body on the line. It is that he has no body. He gets pushed aside like a rag doll. Brown will never be an AFL player. Smart people recognized it 2-3 years ago. A lot of the not still intelligent football supporters are still trying to figure this out. And please don't compare him to Mackie. He does not have the mobility to be a flanker.

Who said anything about Mackie? Though I do seem to remember a lot of people (myself included) questioning Lonergan's future as an AFL footballer, after he was 'rag dolled' in games in late 2009 by the likes of Brown and Fevola. He was 25 at the time, going on 26 for the next season. For all this 'rag dolling', Brown's man sure didn't seem to take too many marks or hurt us on the scoreboard.

 

[And_ROOS]

Our era of dominance is over, we need to wait 10 years to challenge for the flag again, the hunger isn't there instead it's arrogance. Geelong player thought they are unbeatable didn't even make a contest, punch the ball and didn't work hard. I felt sorry for the Geelong supporters who came just to watch them lose.

10 years? Taking the piss there matey, im as frustrated as you are but we are a lot closer to a flag. In 3 years the kids start hitting the 60-80 game mark and we get to see the fun begin again, thats not including the fact the current team in the AFL was a ruckman, a tagger, and some luck away from another GF.

As for the VFL boys. This will burn. This will cut deep. Expect some almighty smashings from them next year.

 

[And_ROOS]

Hawthorn had everything in their favor the other night (fresh from week off, team at peak of its powers, no significant injuries, 'hunger') yet we almost beat them.

As we now see statistically the week off is crucial too. And in 2011 we stuffed the Hawks by rolling them in that first match and having them have to get an underdone Franklin through the finals series. In the end that gritty match with Collingwood was just too much.
I am hoping their gritty match with us wore them down too, the Hawks fans i know have been atrocious and flooding them with Freo and purple for a few days next week would be right revenge for their arrogance.

 

[vealesy]

10 years? Taking the piss there matey, im as frustrated as you are but we are a lot closer to a flag. In 3 years the kids start hitting the 60-80 game mark and we get to see the fun begin again, thats not including the fact the current team in the AFL was a ruckman, a tagger, and some luck away from another GF.

As for the VFL boys. This will burn. This will cut deep. Expect some almighty smashings from them next year.

Agreed.

We saw some almighty smashings this year though.

Schroeder had better make a pact to never lose to Box Hill again.

 

[Partridge]

Still a better effort than 14 other clubs in the AFL though and 10 other clubs in the VFL. We just haven't been good enough this year when it mattered. There's no shame in that, it means we have something to work on for next year. You're such a pessimist, I've never known such a negative man as you.

There you go then, you've learned something new.

 

[Partridge]

I just don't see the same thing others do in Eardley I'm afraid.. yeah he might be hard at it but that's about all I see. Doesn't look an overly smart or highly skilled player

To be fair he was really good last week, just had a shocker yesterday.

 

[Partridge]

Do you understand how many things have to go right for a premiership to be won, and on top of everything going right, you have to have a bit of luck. We lucked out this year and lots of things went wrong. Do you think Selwood and Scott and Stevie and co accept losses, are content with second best? We didn't accept second best for several years because we were an outstanding team that could easily beat most teams, all the time. Geelong of old didn't accept second best either-they just weren't good enough. Maybe '92 we were a chance- '89, '94, '95-the premiers finished several games ahead of us and it panned out like that in the GF. Who wants to lose games-none of us and I imagine 17 other clubs feel the same way.

So going by that rationale, how do you explain 2008?

 

[you rippa]

So going by that rationale, how do you explain 2008?

rushed behinds and snipping behind the play

 

[Partridge]

The VFL today was a salient reminder, cannot judge harshly on one game but I say to all those who think GHS is a walk up start. The guy has super ball winning ability,courageous and hard at the ball, he generally uses it really well and he is so slow Ling would leave him in his wake. Not just today, but on several occasions during the year in both AFL and VFL I saw him badly exposed. This is something that needs looking at before saying he is a must, a role needs to be there for him to fill whereby his lack of speed won't continually be exposed.

There is no way you can use lack of pace as a reason to keep Horlin-Smith out of the team. It hasn't stopped Corey, Kelly and Bartel getting 10+ years. None of them are any quicker. Absolutely you can't have a team full of tortoises; but if Corey is out (and he should be), Horlin-Smith comes in and we've lost nothing. But gained a player 11 years younger.

 

[Partridge]

You are right to suggest the GF result today was only one game. However, performing when it counts and where it counts defines players’ worth.

Today our up-n-comers were pitted against a team which included up-n-comers they are likely to be measured against at senior level in the future. Their younger group essentially showed they could perform under pressure in a high stakes game. There’s a question mark over some of ours.

The measure of players is how they perform in high stakes games when the pressure is intense and sustained. Let’s hope it’s a learning experience and the players we are likely to be depending on show that today was merely a hiccup and they can produce when it counts and where it counts in the future. Today was discouraging though, it needs to be said.

The most disappointing aspect by far was the lack of desperation. Box Hill played like their lives depended on it. Far too desperate and simply wanted the ball much more. From the opening bounce.

They're still young. Hopefully they'll learn from it. The slowest lesson footy clubs (and supporters) learn is that no result is guaranteed.

 

[Partridge]

So I assume you have a few examples of Brown not putting himself on the line yesterday? He was the least of the team's problems yesterday. People just see what they want to see with players like him and West (whom a lot of people are hilariously suggesting was awful yesterday).

Brown was one of the few who actually did his job I thought. Midfield was the big problem, and small forwards as well.

 

[Baudolino]

There is no way you can use lack of pace as a reason to keep Horlin-Smith out of the team. It hasn't stopped Corey, Kelly and Bartel getting 10+ years. None of them are any quicker. Absolutely you can't have a team full of tortoises; but if Corey is out (and he should be), Horlin-Smith comes in and we've lost nothing. But gained a player 11 years younger.

I agree that Corey probably needs to go in order to continue our midfield transition. Still, suggesting that we lose nothing by replacing him with Horlin-Smith is a little bit over the top.

 

[Partridge]

I agree that Corey probably needs to go in order to continue our midfield transition. Still, suggesting that we lose nothing by replacing him with Horlin-Smith is a little bit over the top.

Is it? What are we losing right now? Nothing. Corey falls over or fumbles every time he gets the ball. He averaged 20.8 disposals per game this year - his lowest since 2004. Still think he's as good as ever?

Not to mention, how the hell are the young guys ever going to get better if they're never given the opportunity? This is the 3rd time in 4 years we've been shown up and exposed in finals and still people don't want change. Just amazing. Especially as with a guy called Cameron Guthrie we've seen this year what happens when you promote someone and leave him in.

We lose nothing by replacing Corey with Horlin-Smith. Maybe a few tackles a game until he gets the hang of things. He will not be any worse than Corey was this year in 2014. I think he'll be better.

 

[Partridge]

Who said anything about Mackie? Though I do seem to remember a lot of people (myself included) questioning Lonergan's future as an AFL footballer, after he was 'rag dolled' in games in late 2009 by the likes of Brown and Fevola. He was 25 at the time, going on 26 for the next season. For all this 'rag dolling', Brown's man sure didn't seem to take too many marks or hurt us on the scoreboard.

Can't have facts intruding into discussions regarding Brown MC, you should know this by now. He was probably to blame for Friday night too - him and West that is.

 

[thegerman]

Brown was one of the few who actually did his job I thought. Midfield was the big problem, and small forwards as well.

He may have got his hands on a few, disposal was terrible though.

 

[Willo_]

I do wonder if HS was carrying something the end of the year... he looked slower than I'd ever seen yesterday and might also explain why he couldn't get back into the seniors..

He may just have had an off day but wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't 100%

 

[Baudolino]

Is it? What are we losing right now? Nothing. Corey falls over or fumbles every time he gets the ball. He averaged 20.8 disposals per game this year - his lowest since 2004. Still think he's as good as ever?

Not to mention, how the hell are the young guys ever going to get better if they're never given the opportunity? This is the 3rd time in 4 years we've been shown up and exposed in finals and still people don't want change. Just amazing. Especially as with a guy called Cameron Guthrie we've seen this year what happens when you promote someone and leave him in.

We lose nothing by replacing Corey with Horlin-Smith. Maybe a few tackles a game until he gets the hang of things. He will not be any worse than Corey was this year in 2014. I think he'll be better.

Nope. But why do the older guys have to be "as good as ever" (in other words, as good as they were at their peak) to still be an asset to the team? Like I said, I don't even necessarily disagree with you that Corey should probably retire, I just disagree with a lot of your general premises about older players.

Corey doesn't fall over or fumble every time he gets the ball. That's just strategically ignoring all the good things he does and focusing only on the negative.

People do want change. However, there is more than one type of change that can make a difference. Whenever a team goes out in finals the suggested change is almost invariably the same thing you are advocating right now: sweeping personnel changes. So long as Chris Scott continues to gradually phase out vets and gradually phase in new faces, then changes to our game plan and structures should be our most important priorities over the summer.