Voss in 2013 (aka 'the Voss megathread')

[Luke Kathutian]

Great bloke, terrific player and nice guy or not - I for one would not want to cross him. Terrible coach but. He seems to be exceptionally poor at game-day strategy. I'm also worried about what he does to some players head-space. Take Toddy Banfield for example - this guy has pace, skills, awareness, defensive pressure... all the things we are missing in our foward line. And up until a season or two ago he was a very good finisher around goals. This guy should be playing in the 1s week in, week out. But somewhere along the line his headspace just got completely mangled and he lost all confidence. Now that may have happened completely independent of anything the coaching staff did, it's hardly a situation unique to Brisbane. What is unique to Brisbane is that at other clubs the coaching and support staff step in, sort out the players head, and it becomes a good news story. We seem to just give up.

But how similar is whats going on at Brisbane to Port Adelaide! Consider this:

* Both clubs were powerhouses around that 2002 - 2004 period and won premierships under respected coaches (Leigh Matthews and Mark Williams).
* Both clubs endured some turbulent times during the subsequent 'rebuilding' period and both clubs turned to respected ex-players in Matthew Primus and Michael Voss, neither of whom had a great deal of coaching experience.
* Primus was an epic fail. Voss, so far, has been a solid fail.
* Both clubs had good NAB form and an exciting amount of talent on their list to start the 2013 season.

And that is where the clubs take different paths. Port dumped Primus in favour of Ken Hinkley - an untired head coach who was not a big name. He did however have a big reputation in the ranks of the Geelong senior players from his time coaching there. Hinkley has taken the talent on that list and created a unit with weapons all over the park.

Voss will not survive. He just isn't good enough to coach an AFL team. Maybe in 10 years he will be, but not now. The question is can Brisbane find a Hinkley?

 

[dlanod]

Voss needs to punch a wall and smash a phone for a start.
Its time he gets some argo into the coaching box, get those windows steaming.

Punching a wall is all fun and games until you break a hand.

 

[dlanod]

And that is where the clubs take different paths. Port dumped Primus in favour of Ken Hinkley - an untired head coach who was not a big name. He did however have a big reputation in the ranks of the Geelong senior players from his time coaching there. Hinkley has taken the talent on that list and created a unit with weapons all over the park.

Voss will not survive. He just isn't good enough to coach an AFL team. Maybe in 10 years he will be, but not now. The question is can Brisbane find a Hinkley?

Hinkley has beaten:

• Melbourne (16th last year)
• GWS (18th last year)
• Adelaide in a Showdown (Port loves upsets in these)
• GC (17th last year)

I think the real question is - can Brisbane get that kind of draw to start a year please?

My point is that it's a bit too soon to jump on the "Hinkley is a god" bandwagon.

 

[Wozzie81]

Would any of us be disappointed if the club made contact with the mgmt of Paul Roos this week?? Just to find out where he was at and if he had the desire to coach in the not too distant future??

If our situation doesn't improve, these discussions are inevitable. I would much rather we were on the front foot and prepared.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Yeah wouldn't be against them seeing where Roos and Rocket are at but if that stuff leaks, Voss is instantly cut off at the knees.

 

[angrylion1]

This team is playing like it hasn't improved 1 bit in last 2-3 years. Says a lot about our coaching. Deep down I guess, all lions fan have got some idea that Voss is probably not a good coach.

We know a lot about Ross Lyon, Roos, Bomber Thompson, Malthouse etc coaching style. We know the type of game their team will play. What do we know about Voss?

Any specific thing he tries? Any specific structure or game plan? zilch. nothing. All I know is that his team at times does shows lot of courage like he used to in his playing days. But that's not good enough anymore.

 

[POBT]

Yeah wouldn't be against them seeing where Roos and Rocket are at but if that stuff leaks, Voss is instantly cut off at the knees.

I guess it depends on when they decide to pull the trigger. If they allow Voss to see out the season, then I would imagine that only Melbourne are likely to be in the market for a coach at some point. Everyone else appears to be pretty safe at this point in time, assuming Hird is in the clear. If we decide that Voss isn't the man to take us forward, there's a little less competition for senior coaches than there was, say, 2 years ago when the likes of Sanderson, McCartney, Neeld, Watters etc were all appointed. That means we don't have to be as urgent in the marketplace.

 

[Duritz]

Hinkley has beaten:

• Melbourne (16th last year)
• GWS (18th last year)
• Adelaide in a Showdown (Port loves upsets in these)
• GC (17th last year)

I think the real question is - can Brisbane get that kind of draw to start a year please?


My point is that it's a bit too soon to jump on the "Hinkley is a god" bandwagon.

Bulldogs, Adelaide, Gold Coast, North is a more than acceptable first 4 games, and we're 1-3.

 

[Duritz]

Would any of us be disappointed if the club made contact with the mgmt of Paul Roos this week?? Just to find out where he was at and if he had the desire to coach in the not too distant future??

If our situation doesn't improve, these discussions are inevitable. I would much rather we were on the front foot and prepared.

I think Roos coaching the Lions would be a Lyon to Freo type move: one that, if available, the board would be remiss not to investigate. However, I don't think Roos will do it.

 

[jackess]

We saw our game plan in the NAB Cup when the opposition allowed us to play it. Due to a few reasons it hasn't happened in the real season.

 

[dlanod]

Bulldogs, Adelaide, Gold Coast, North is a more than acceptable first 4 games, and we're 1-3.

The Bulldogs game was the only one that threw me for a loop. The game against North last year we were never really in it. It's just that this year they didn't ease up.

 

[Duritz]

The Bulldogs game was the only one that threw me for a loop. The game against North last year we were never really in it. It's just that this year they didn't ease up.

And is that acceptable? To not be in games vs a team the quality of North?

 

[Harris Specter]

I don't know if getting a new coach is the best idea at the moment. Our game plan is looking alright in patches, it's the effort and mindset from the players that's missing. This is the aspect of the game that's concerning. The players aren't running for each other, creating options, and shepherding opponents.

It seems as though they're only just labouring through just enough to avoid a omission for the week after. Save a few players of course.

I'm not going to say any names, but senior players with 50+ games should be embarrassed that a couple of first gamers and a second gamer had far better games than they had. Some players need a kick up their bottom to start increasing their work rate.

I'm genuinely confused by Voss' comments in the presser yesterday.

Voss denied his players' lack of work rate was a physical thing, as the team that was fielded was one of their better "pure physically fit sides".

If that was our better physically fit sides, why weren't they running hard enough? Is it a confidence issue, or a mentality issue? Always second to the ball, waiting for others to do the work, and leaving too much to the defence to clean up the mess. Need a massive improvement if we're to beat the Demons this week.

 

[POBT]

We know a lot about Ross Lyon, Roos, Bomber Thompson, Malthouse etc coaching style. We know the type of game their team will play. What do we know about Voss?

Any specific thing he tries? Any specific structure or game plan? zilch. nothing. All I know is that his team at times does shows lot of courage like he used to in his playing days. But that's not good enough anymore.

I see this written a bit and I don't agree with it. I think there is an obvious "style" that Voss wants us to play. It involves quick, accurate movement of the footy, using the corridor as much as possible and utilising run and carry out of defence to open up the opposition. When we play well, that style is quite obvious. When we play poorly, we look like an unorganised rabble.

Instead of questioning whether there is a plan, we should be asking these questions?

1. Is it a good game plan in modern footy?

2. Do we have the personnel to carry it out?

3. Are the players prepared to follow the plan?

4. Is the coach the right man to institute the plan on a weekly basis?

5. Is the plan flexible enough to allow for alternate styles of play when Plan A doesn't work?


And my answers:

1. Maybe. It is not dissimilar to what North utilise. I'd prefer a method that relies on winning the footy in the middle, than assuming it will end up in our defensive half and building from there.

2. I think our defensive group lacks quality rebounding players and I think our midfielders lack players with penetration - either by way of speed or kicking. You need these things if you are going to play the Voss style of footy. So, it is a no from me - I think we've recruited recently knowing these deficiencies (Mayes, Polec, Docherty, Yeo etc) but you can't expect 18-19yos to come in and replicate what Hawthorn get from Birchall, Smith etc or what Sydney get from Shaw, Malceski, Jetta etc. What the plan does do is hide the fact that we don't have key forwards. You are relying on speed of counter-attack to open up options - we've seen we play our best when guys like Bewick, Green, Zorko, McGrath get on the end of quick movement of the footy. So it is a potentially successful plan on the basis that we don't have a good tall forward structure. But there is still too much else missing from the side to make it work against quality sides, every week.

3. That has to be questioned because the way we performed in rounds 1 and 4 was deplorable.

4. ???

5. No.

 

[dlanod]

And is that acceptable? To not be in games vs a team the quality of North?

FFS my reply was to highlight that Hinkley's currently getting a bit overblown. I don't know how that got to "It's acceptable to not be in games against North".

 

[Hollow Knight]

I'm genuinely confused by Voss' comments in the presser yesterday.

Not confusing at all for mine. Voss is clearly saying they have the physical fitness required, they are just lazy.

Edit: I also wish I had some alias accounts because I want to like POBT's most recent post multiple times.

 

[Duritz]

FFS my reply was to highlight that Hinkley's currently getting a bit overblown. I don't know how that got to "It's acceptable to not be in games against North".

Yeah but you were suggesting that you'd like Port's first four games of the year, the implication of which was that if we had those four we'd be going OK, too, when I am suggesting that our draw isn't the reason we're 1-3.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Clear miscommunication/lost in translation moment. Can we move on.

 

[POBT]

The win/loss record is irrelevant anyway. We're one win behind what most of us expected. 3-2 was a reasonable expectation. 4-1 should have been the target. 5-0 would have been brilliant. We win next week and we are 2-3 - not acceptable but not dire in terms of ladder position.

The issue is in how we have played and the manner of our losses in Melbourne. W/L is the least of our worries right now.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You hit the nail on the head Matt as to perhaps a better role for Voss. And Haggis, I agree totally about Voss' being way too nice...it almost comes across like he doesnt care. Of course he does, but seriously, he's far too cautious, seems to draw up in his shell and has always looked like a coach learning on the job. Kind of like Lt. Gormon out of 'Aliens'

I think back of all the top coaches in the AFL in recent years, and they were all scary b*stards. Malthouse, Matthews, Sheedy. Even guys like Bomber Thompson and Rodney Eade. I'd be terrified as a player under those men to do the wrong thing - as there's always that element of fear. That can manifest into respect and lets face it - footy is a contact, men's sport. Voss is too new-age for my liking... maybe our club needs some seasoned old, grumpy b*stard to take over the reigns and give them all a kick up the a*se - perhaps that could be the catalyst that can turn our team of POTENTIAL into REALITY.

exactly what I thought, Voss may be too young as he did play with some of the guys now in the team and we need a coach who will get ****ing angry

 

[Duritz]

The win/loss record is irrelevant anyway. We're one win behind what most of us expected. 3-2 was a reasonable expectation. 4-1 should have been the target. 5-0 would have been brilliant. We win next week and we are 2-3 - not acceptable but not dire in terms of ladder position.

The issue is in how we have played and the manner of our losses in Melbourne. W/L is the least of our worries right now.

Except that the w/l comes from the way we play. And it's pretty clear that with the way we play the w/l is not going to hit the positive any time this year. You can project a w/l when looking at how we play, and it's not pretty.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Would any of us be disappointed if the club made contact with the mgmt of Paul Roos this week?? Just to find out where he was at and if he had the desire to coach in the not too distant future??

If our situation doesn't improve, these discussions are inevitable. I would much rather we were on the front foot and prepared.

woud love to have him, he would be a perfect fit, to add to that he was friends with my dad back in the day

 

[POBT]

Except that the w/l comes from the way we play. And it's pretty clear that with the way we play the w/l is not going to hit the positive any time this year. You can project a w/l when looking at how we play, and it's not pretty.

I don't imagine things would be much more positive here had we beaten the Bulldogs by 1 point and lost to North by 100 points. And yet, on w/l, we'd be ahead.

If we had lost yesterday by 1 point and showed a heap of endeavour in the process, I would be OK with where we are at, despite the fact that we were still 1-3.

If we play shit, lifeless footy, we can expect poor results. I don't need a ladder to tell me that we are going terribly. Pointing to our position on the ladder and saying "see, we are really bad" adds nothing. If it is a performance measure, it is pretty blunt and uninformative. It is merely an outcome of what is more important - the effort the team puts in and, in two games this year, that effort has been worse than unacceptable.

 

[Duritz]

I don't imagine things would be much more positive here had we beaten the Bulldogs by 1 point and lost to North by 100 points. And yet, on w/l, we'd be ahead.

If we had lost yesterday by 1 point and showed a heap of endeavour in the process, I would be OK with where we are at, despite the fact that we were still 1-3.

If we play shit, lifeless footy, we can expect poor results. I don't need a ladder to tell me that we are going terribly. Pointing to our position on the ladder and saying "see, we are really bad" adds nothing. If it is a performance measure, it is pretty blunt and uninformative. It is merely an outcome of what is more important - the effort the team puts in and, in two games this year, that effort has been worse than unacceptable.

Yes, but this is the point, isn't it... it's not just that we're 1-3, but the manner in which we are. A devastatingly bad loss to the Dogs, very average performances against both Adelaide and GCST, then a very poor performance again against the Roos. There's nothing, IMO, from any of the four games on which to hinge any enthusiasm.

 

[dlanod]

Yeah but you were suggesting that you'd like Port's first four games of the year, the implication of which was that if we had those four we'd be going OK, too, when I am suggesting that our draw isn't the reason we're 1-3.

If we had their draw, I think we'd be 3-1.

I then think we'd collapse in a heap, so it would've just deferred the current spate of hand-wringing a few rounds but probably exaggerate it since people react worse to being given high expectations and then having them taken away.

But my point, which was pretty obvious unless you go looking for subtexts, - actually, reviewing the post, I even explicitly said what the point was - was that Hinkley isn't necessarily the godsend people are making him out to be. It's far far far far far too early to make that kind of judgement, especially given the draw they've had so far.