Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 3

[Mobbs]

Oh and btw in Slavic vocab there is much more free use of what we now would here call extremely non-PC namecalling. For instance even in my post earlier about the RF dressing in UKR uniform near the front, there was a term included in the quote much more offensive than these others. But it's used regularly in their convos - we'd blush these days if it said around us over here.

 

[Mobbs]

The pearl clutching here is hilarious

Precisely. Not a peep for 18 months prior, btw ...

 

[Saint]

Apparently it's bad to call invading troops behaving badly 'Orcs'

But calling all Ukrainians 'Nazis' is a matter of opinion and reason to invade and plunder.

This all started based on Putin's name-calling.

 

[ferball]

I don’t see Putin or Russian military as human. Go ahead and report my post if you want.

Why would I report your post?

But this is the problem, isn't it. They are human.

They're not aliens and they're not monsters. They're all to human. Do you want to go down the same path? This is the first step. Throughout history its only humans that do this stuff to other humans. Often as part of a cycle of ongoing retribution for other brutal stuff.

 

[ferball]

Apparently it's bad to call invading troops behaving badly 'Orcs'

But calling all Ukrainians 'Nazis' is a matter of opinion and reason to invade and plunder.

This all started based on Putin's name-calling.

So why are you letting this be your excuse for behaving the same way Putin does or supporting the same behaviour?

 

[ferball]

Ukrainians will often refer to Russian invaders as "katsap" which is simply a perjorative based on a classic stereotype. In turn, the Russians will use a perjorative "khokhol", which I think derives from some headwear that might have been prolific in the region.

In both cases, these terms are intended (within the framework of the current terrorist invasions) to be as vitriolic as the "orc" term. But all stem locally on one side or the other.

I do agree that terms like terrorist, perpetrators of genocide, ethnic cleansers, torturers, etc are more definitive descriptions than that of "orc".

Well use those terms.

You wonder why I don't post about this war. I really don't care. My family on my mothers side escaped that part of the world in the 1800s, running from ethnic cleansing. They were in Eastern Europe, not Russia.

Two months before putin invaded a court in Odessa found that ethnic cleansing was a legal form of "direct democracy" - seems like a general problem in that part of the world, not just something Russians do.

The Russians are no more terrorists than the Australians who took part in the invasion of Iraq tho.

 

[ferball]

But hey, let's not call these soldiers names because it might hurt their feelings.

Its not about their feelings, they don't matter.

Its about what people are posting on an discussion board about football in Australia.

I've known Australian soldiers who've fought in a bunch of conflicts since Vietnam and been peace keepers in some really horrific situations, probably worse than Ukraine if you can believe that. The stuff they've said they've seen and done is pretty ****ed up.

But they're still humans and many of them spent years afterward questioning their own humanity as a result.

One of them, who was in the SAS in the SE Asian "emergency" during the early 60s then in Vietnam, described what he did as no different to the Nazis. There's a whole bunch of people here posting in support of Ukraine who have very left wing values and that bloke (and a couple of others I've known) used to be given lists of people like that with orders to hunt them down and kill them in Borneo, Indonesia and a couple of other places they probably weren't actually sposed to be.

 

[ferball]

They're absolutely orc scum and should be labelled as such. The soldiers that don't harm Ukranians and surrender to Ukraine armed forces are no longer orcs - they made the choice to not impose Putin's facism on Ukranians.

If a soldier is in the habit of using dehumanising language to describe ytheir enemies and they suddenly surrender why would they suddenly start treating them as human? They've seen all the shit the orcs or their mates did as scum and now they want to get away with it by surrendering and being treated humanely. They obviously don't deserve it.

 

[Visions]

I think it was explained before. The term is not directed at a person being Russian, it is specifically for the soldiers who are invading Ukraine. The term is based on the person a actions, not their race or nationality (Though note I personally never used the term orc myself).

And yes it is soldiers who are firing missiles into apartment buildings, hospitals, theatres with large writing of "children" on it.

It is soldiers who are kidnapping Ukrainian children and sending them to all parts of Russia to be adopted and "re-educated".

It is soldiers firing missiles into the electrical grid during winter hoping the populace will freeze to death.

It is soldiers who murdered the civilians in Bucha.

It was soldiers who blown up the dam on Dnipro river flooding villages and parts of Kherson.

It is Russian soldiers who are invading another sovereign country.

Guns and missiles don't fire themselves. It takes someone to pull the trigger, and it is the soldiers who are pulling the trigger.

But hey, let's not call these soldiers names because it might hurt their feelings.

Before you say something along the lines of "you are nieave to think Ukrainian soldiers don't cross the line", I am aware of that but it clearly isn't anywhere on the scale or systemic as what the Russian soldiers are doing.

Well said. Some people conveniently ignore all this and pretend it never happened as it destroys their flimsy argument.

And then they come up with the “but they are mobiks/conscription” debate. Spare me. Those conscripts who first entered Ukraine in Feb 2022 had an excuse as they were duped by a scrupulous dictator in Putin.

But now every mobik that travels across the border knows exactly what they are doing and makes that choice in the hope of coming out of it with a washing machine or two while pillaging towns.

Before the same proponents argue “that they are forced to go”, those same mobiks can either refuse, or once they get there wave the white flag and surrender to the other side.

 

[Saint]

Calling conscripts orcs is poor taste

Shooting, bombing, launching missiles and drones at Ukrainians who have done nothing wrong other than being invaded is worse. Doesn't matter if you were conscripted, you could always miss your target.

Side Note: I'm starting to think all Storm Troopers were mobiks forced into combat, the amount they used to miss their targets.

Two months before putin invaded a court in Odessa found that ethnic cleansing was a legal form of "direct democracy" - seems like a general problem in that part of the world, not just something Russians do.

This a gross mis-representation. Care to elaborate on why you think this, source?

If you're in the Russian army (conscripted or not) and you're trying to kill Ukrainians, name calling is the least we can do.

Had they refused conscription, they could sit in prison, that's a more moral choice.

Very different to the Malayan crisis or troops serving in Iraq who can quit the army whenever they please. Lots of people have refused to pick up a weapon as is their right in a democracy which is not currently under existential threat.

 

[Zidane98]

Very telling that some posters are more concerned about how Russian orc soldiers are labelled than the war crimes and atrocities they commit all in the name of mother Russia.

Unsurprising the same posters are also posting pro Russian propaganda about Ukraine.

 

[ibd77]

Calling conscripts orcs is poor taste

Should we show empathy to an apathetic society that has allowed Putin to start and continue this war?

 

[Saint]

So why are you letting this be your excuse for behaving the same way Putin does or supporting the same behaviour?

No, I'm not supporting murdering innocent people because I called them a name.

I am in favour of calling murderers and invading troops nasty names.

Calling somebody a name is not the same as shooting somebody or invading a nation.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

So why are you letting this be your excuse for behaving the same way Putin does or supporting the same behaviour?

Alright then lads, we better lay off all that invading peaceful autonomous neighbouring countries, bombing of civilian targets, blackmailing of third-party nations, and initiation/endorsement of genocide that we’ve all apparently been engaging in.

Give me a break mate.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Just out of curiosity, from the perspective of someone who’s not overly au fait with the work of Tolkien, were the orcs conscripted?

 

[TedDougChris]

Just out of curiosity, from the perspective of someone who’s not overly au fait with the work of Tolkien, were the orcs conscripted?

Created/twisted by Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman from what I remember !!

 

[ferball]

This a gross mis-representation. Care to elaborate on why you think this, source?

Is it? You don't even know what i'm talking about do you.

One source was the Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group website but its been removed.

This was the actual case but it won't load.

Єдиний державний реєстр судових рішень

reyestr.court.gov.ua

Okay here the original fom the KHRPG website. You can't search their site for it anymore and it was very difficult to find but anyway here it is.

Please feel free to explain why the KHRPG is someone associated with evil Vlad and the Russian bots.

Chillingly retrograde Ukrainian court ruling justifies anti-Roma pogrom as ‘direct democracy’

The victims of anti-Roma riots in Loshchynivka and their lawyers have encountered many obstacles to justice over the last five and a half years, but the court ruling passed on 6 December 2021 is in a deeply shocking league of its own.

khpg.org

 

[Zidane98]

Meanwhile in Moscow

 

[ferball]

Alright then lads, we better lay off all that invading peaceful autonomous neighbouring countries, bombing of civilian targets, blackmailing of third-party nations, and initiation/endorsement of genocide that we’ve all apparently been engaging in.

Give me a break mate.

You mean like in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria? Oh wait they weren't neighbours, but Indonesia was when we invaded part of it gave them "freedom" and then stole their gas rights. Vietnam almost was. Those countries we murdered trade unionists in the 60 were pretty close.

Our nation is not much better. Even this Voice vote is just cover for what is essentially an illegal occupation.

 

[Nothing]

We really do need bingo cards.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Why would I report your post?

But this is the problem, isn't it. They are human.

They're not aliens and they're not monsters. They're all to human. Do you want to go down the same path? This is the first step. Throughout history its only humans that do this stuff to other humans. Often as part of a cycle of ongoing retribution for other brutal stuff.

Retribution is earnt.
I have no energy of space to show empathy for the Russian military. I do not have that capacity. I am at least honest about it.
The suspicion is that anyone seeking to show empathy to the Russian military is trying to shift and manipulate the dial towards accepting what they are doing
Hence the aggressive responses you are getting.

 

[Mobbs]

It's the same old crap. Webiks try to raise one vaguely questionable point in some feigned equivocation attempt in order to steer the topic away from Russia's unprovoked and intentional invasion of it's latest target.

Even that point is unsustainable, but it creates a shitfight that derails the convo. A lot of breath gets wasted, while Ukrainian children continue to be forcibly relocated into Russian re-education centres by their thousands

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Zidane98]

We really do need bingo cards.

Might need an update on the vatnik league table. Freo must be close to the top!

 

[jatz14]

So why are you letting this be your excuse for behaving the same way Putin does or supporting the same behaviour?

Wait! Saint invaded someone?

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Saint]

Is it? You don't even know what i'm talking about do you.

One source was the Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group website but its been removed.

This was the actual case but it won't load.

Єдиний державний реєстр судових рішень

reyestr.court.gov.ua

Okay here the original fom the KHRPG website. You can't search their site for it anymore and it was very difficult to find but anyway here it is.

Please feel free to explain why the KHRPG is someone associated with evil Vlad and the Russian bots.

Chillingly retrograde Ukrainian court ruling justifies anti-Roma pogrom as ‘direct democracy’

The victims of anti-Roma riots in Loshchynivka and their lawyers have encountered many obstacles to justice over the last five and a half years, but the court ruling passed on 6 December 2021 is in a deeply shocking league of its own.

khpg.org

THe article is mostly hyperbole. The court ruling was that the Roma weren't entitled to compensation from the State for not protecting them from an angry vigilante mob.

The mob were condemned at the time.

Outrage after Roma pogroms in Ukraine – DW – 09/01/2016

The murder of a Ukrainian girl blamed on a Roma led locals from a village near Odessa to carry out pogroms. An entire Roma community was evicted, causing concern among human rights groups.

www.dw.com

You're painting this out to be systemic, when really it was a small town forming a mob when an 8yo girl was r*ped and murdered and the authorities telling them all to calm down.

And it's certainly not an excuse for Russians to commit state-condoned rape and murder across Ukraine. I reckon those Ukrainians called those Roma worse names than "orc"