Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[modul8]

History will be damning of Zelensky, Biden and Boris Johnson. The fact that there was a peace deal on the table and they didn't take it is a damning miscalculation. Now Russia has lost too much and can't back down. Has been one of the more of the more senseless conflicts of modern history, but will end up the same 'what was the fking point?' basket as Iraq and Vietnam.

But not putin? Really?

 

[Baldur]

Revealed: Russia anticipated Kursk incursion months in advance, seized papers show

Exclusive: Documents contain months of warnings about possible Ukrainian advance and also reveal concerns about morale

www.theguardian.com

The Russians knew the attack would happen, but still fell apart like a house of cards.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

History will be damning of Zelensky, Biden and Boris Johnson. The fact that there was a peace deal on the table and they didn't take it is a damning miscalculation. Now Russia has lost too much and can't back down. Has been one of the more of the more senseless conflicts of modern history, but will end up the same 'what was the fking point?' basket as Iraq and Vietnam.

Yep, like history is so damning of Winston Churchill, but holds Neville Chamberlain in so much high regard.

Spare me.

 

[Venkman]

Yep, like history is so damning of Winston Churchill, but holds Neville Chamberlain in so much high regard.

Spare me.

It essentially comes down to results. Churchill had the advantage of taking power when England was on the ropes and 'stay the course' became the only option, but even he was largely discredited at that point due the losing hand he played in Turkey. Chamberlain should have read the room better, but it's not analogous to Ukraine. Both Trump and Obama had no interest in Ukraine and weirdly during their time there was a) no war and b) Putin didn't seem to be a threat to rampage across Europe.

 

[Venkman]

But not putin? Really?

Look probably, but it will depend on the net result. If you are going to send 100s of thousands to their deaths you need to get what you want, it's why he won't back down now. If Ukraine folds he will say he held off western military expansion etc. At which point it will come down to who is writing the books.

 

[Mobbs]

There are reports of explosions at Yeysk, but only sly references. Haven't found imagery or verified reports yet. Yeysk is across the Azov Sea from Mariupol. It is home to a military airfield, but is also a manageably short distance from Mairupol for the transport of resources. Yeysk's airbase was hit at least once prior, in June this year.
The following video is circulating but don't know if it's the same reported event. Simply claims its somewhere in Rostov oblast.
View attachment IMG_8271.mp4

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A bridge in Samara damaged by explosion - seems to be the work of a saboteur. However, the explosion barely scratched the surface and the rail and structure still seem fully intact.
View attachment IMG_9204.MP4

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Image of Vuhledar of recent. The town, like most others Russia can get within fire control of, is wiped from the face of the Earth. (video compressed for BF limitations)
View attachment IMG_9200.mp4

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Russians try to surrender and are pummelled by their own artillery for their audacity. (video compressed for BF limitations)
View attachment IMG_2892.mp4

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A representative FSB hockey team get attacked by their opposing team. Charges, not fines, are laid.
View attachment IMG_9203.MP4

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DeepState expose criminally underprepared Ukrainian defensive trenchlines in the Pokrovsk axis, highlighting among other fails the rolls of barbed wire that are left undeployed.

 

[wannabejack]

History will be damning of Zelensky, Biden and Boris Johnson. The fact that there was a peace deal on the table and they didn't take it is a damning miscalculation. Now Russia has lost too much and can't back down. Has been one of the more of the more senseless conflicts of modern history, but will end up the same 'what was the fking point?' basket as Iraq and Vietnam.

Put(in) your trust in russia. (excuse the pun)

Chechnya.
May 1997 peace treaty.
By the autumn of 1999, Russian troops were back in Chechnya.

 

[wannabejack]

Look probably, but it will depend on the net result. If you are going to send 100s of thousands to their deaths you need to get what you want, it's why he won't back down now. If Ukraine folds he will say he held off western military expansion etc. At which point it will come down to who is writing the books.

Putin always wanted Ukraine as part of russia or at the least a puppet state. “It's why he won't back down” or wouldn’t back down even if a treaty was signed.

 

[Mobbs]

"Pointless conflict" is a weird assertion to me, but it's probably just a loaded term to politicise "avoidable conflict".

Whether Putin is being territorial, genocidal, fascist or security minded ... or if he's following the idealogical whispers of Dugin and/or silovici puppetmasters ... or if the RF/RF crony narratives of NATO expansion or whatever the **** else they try to claim were true, these "reasons" are not a pinch less point-driven than pretty much any other conflict.

Can call it avoidable, ill-advised or destined for tragic consequences. But pointless? Can't see it.

Although semantically the natural laws of the universe actually make "pointless" impossible, so I have to read "pointless" as "avoidable" when someone claims it.

The only thing truly pointless, is ... probably ... my post right now.