Western Bulldogs and the MCG factor

[Prince Imperial]

Yes but fine for Marvel where we would comfortably draw 20,000 plus which since the a
AFL took over the operations is fine


Why are we bedwetters with home games.

2 home games at the G against the big 4, 9 at Marvel and you know set up for those finals thingies

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

The club must think that the financial returns are significantly greater at Ballarat due to government sponsorship than playing at Marvel in front of 20-25k fans.

We have not had a home match at the MCG against a big team this century. We had a number of home games at the MCG from 2004 to 2009 but these were all against interstate and small Melbourne clubs. The AFL just don't want to schedule us there.

I think MCG and Ballarat matches are separate issues.

 

[dogwatch]

We chose 2 Ballarat games, all commitments are met if we play 2 home MCG games against the big 4

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

As Prince Imperial implies we also have to balance drawing power against stadium costs. The whole point of building Docklands was to have a boutique stadium with lower fixed costs to make a 2-stadium approach viable in Melbourne. Docklands is allocated the lower drawing games and the bigger ones are at the MCG. The clubs that call MCG "home" are the bigger drawing clubs.

I don't know the exact numbers for 2024 but I'd expect the break even point for playing a game at the MCG colosseum is around 40,000 or maybe a bit over that. And I expect the break even point for playing at Docklands is around 25,000-30,000. Happy to be corrected if these numbers are not right.

We went to Ballarat (and before that to Canberra, Cairns, Darwin) because we were not making money (often losing money) on certain games, even at Docklands. Those regional areas offered a big incentive payment to play games there so it made economic sense to sell them a couple of games a year.

The case for switching two games back to the MCG is tenuous. As you say it would have to be against the big clubs (so we are effectively playing a "home" game on their home ground not ours, but that's a separate debate) while the games against GWS, Port, GCS etc would be played at Docklands instead of Ballarat. This might prove financially feasible when we are flying (top 4) but when we become a struggling side - as all sides do at some point - we would struggle to draw the requisite crowds at the MCG. Even if we did manage 50,000 at the G we would have a parallel problem at Docklands, losing money on our games against Gold Coast etc.

Our highest EVER home crowds against interstate clubs is as follows:

Adelaide 29998 MCG 2006​

Brisbane 39320 MCG 2008​

Fremantle 27832 Docklands 2016​

Gold Coast 22499 Docklands 2019​

GWS Giants 30672 Docklands 2017​

Port Adel 23110 Docklands 2023​

Sydney 42834 Docklands 2017​

West Coast 30900 Docklands 2007​

If my assumptions about the break even points for those venues are even remotely correct then it's easy to see we would have a huge problem abandoning regional games, especially when our on-field fortunes start to wane. Our best ever crowds against Gold Coast, Port Adelaide and possibly Fremantle would make a loss, or at best break even at Docklands. The case for GWS, West Coast and Adelaide is also marginal. And that's on our best attendances ever! We routinely draw far fewer than that against interstate clubs at Docklands. In our down years we have drawn as few as 12500 against Fremantle and around 14800 against GWS and Port Adelaide, both at Docklands.

The average attendances for all games the interstate clubs have played at Docklands (not just against us but also other Docklands tenants) are as follows. They give a reasonable guide to their drawing power but bear in mind many of these games would be against Essendon and Carlton with their large membership base, not just WB, North and St Kilda:

Adelaide 29081​

Brisbane 29604​

Fremantle 24287​

Gold Coast 23384​

GWS Giants 22752​

Port Adel 26028​

Sydney 33574​

West Coast 29159​

Finally, even if we abandoned Ballarat and other regional centres there's no guarantee the AFL would agree to us playing at the MCG. They need a decent quota of games played at Docklands to keep it viable and may not like the idea of the smaller clubs wanting more of the MCG action. There's also the issue of scheduling all the MCG games over a weekend and the recovery and management of the ground surface which may limit how many games the MCG can sustain.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Say we wanted to play there 4 times a year. Our options are between, Carlton Collingwood Essendon Richmond, Melbourne and Hawthorn. We’d have to play 4/6 of those teams away every year and that is not happening.They prefer us to play Essendon at Marvel since the game is almost always a sellout and the biggest crowd at Marvel for the year, and Hawks have almost half their home games in Tassie, and really only play their MCG games vs other MCG teams.

We’d have to double up vs half the MCG teams for it to be feasible, and our name is not Carlton so that isn’t gonna happen, you will get your double ups vs North and Fremantle and you will enjoy it!

 

[bigdog54]

Anyone, anywhere...

 

[grassman75]

We seem to always get Melbourne and Richmond at the G.

What we miss out on is Hawks playing us at tassie. Collingwood and Carlton have a home game at Marvel vs us. Geelong will always request us at KP.

It is doable to get two more.

I’d be happy if we alternated that Geelong home game between KP and the G and then the Coll / Carl games on alternating years

I’d also be happy if we got at least one game in Queensland each year…..absolute bullshit that we haven’t played here for two years in a row

 

[LondonBulldog]

Dump Ballarat for two Marquee MCG games a year. Even if they keep Ballarat, give us our replacement games back and build them up as our Marquee games each year. Promote them and aim for big crowds.

Honestly Ballarat is such small fry mentality. Play a preseason game there each year and that’s it.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[LondonBulldog]

Melbourne clubs should not really have a home ground, should be spilt between MCG and Marvel for all Melbourne clubs with sides making the 8 getting preference.

For example our spilt next year should be 6 MCG and 5 Marvel, Richmond 6 Marvel and 5 at the MCG. Time for change


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

i remember in the mid 2000s wed sometimes host MCG games, 2006 v adelaide

 

[Mutt]

Yes the AFL has those commitments, we chose to play 2 home games at Ballarat, those could be at the MCG opening up greater opportunities for the AFL

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

How do you know this? We haven't had home games scheduled at the MCG for decades.

 

[lachy]

As Prince Imperial implies we also have to balance drawing power against stadium costs. The whole point of building Docklands was to have a boutique stadium with lower fixed costs to make a 2-stadium approach viable in Melbourne. Docklands is allocated the lower drawing games and the bigger ones are at the MCG. The clubs that call MCG "home" are the bigger drawing clubs.

I don't know the exact numbers for 2024 but I'd expect the break even point for playing a game at the MCG colosseum is around 40,000 or maybe a bit over that. And I expect the break even point for playing at Docklands is around 25,000-30,000. Happy to be corrected if these numbers are not right.

We went to Ballarat (and before that to Canberra, Cairns, Darwin) because we were not making money (often losing money) on certain games, even at Docklands. Those regional areas offered a big incentive payment to play games there so it made economic sense to sell them a couple of games a year.

The case for switching two games back to the MCG is tenuous. As you say it would have to be against the big clubs (so we are effectively playing a "home" game on their home ground not ours, but that's a separate debate) while the games against GWS, Port, GCS etc would be played at Docklands instead of Ballarat. This might prove financially feasible when we are flying (top 4) but when we become a struggling side - as all sides do at some point - we would struggle to draw the requisite crowds at the MCG. Even if we did manage 50,000 at the G we would have a parallel problem at Docklands, losing money on our games against Gold Coast etc.

Our highest EVER home crowds against interstate clubs is as follows:

Adelaide 29998 MCG 2006​

Brisbane 39320 MCG 2008​

Fremantle 27832 Docklands 2016​

Gold Coast 22499 Docklands 2019​

GWS Giants 30672 Docklands 2017​

Port Adel 23110 Docklands 2023​

Sydney 42834 Docklands 2017​

West Coast 30900 Docklands 2007​

If my assumptions about the break even points for those venues are even remotely correct then it's easy to see we would have a huge problem abandoning regional games, especially when our on-field fortunes start to wane. Our best ever crowds against Gold Coast, Port Adelaide and possibly Fremantle would make a loss, or at best break even at Docklands. The case for GWS, West Coast and Adelaide is also marginal. And that's on our best attendances ever! We routinely draw far fewer than that against interstate clubs at Docklands. In our down years we have drawn as few as 12500 against Fremantle and around 14800 against GWS and Port Adelaide, both at Docklands.

The average attendances for all games the interstate clubs have played at Docklands (not just against us but also other Docklands tenants) are as follows. They give a reasonable guide to their drawing power but bear in mind many of these games would be against Essendon and Carlton with their large membership base, not just WB, North and St Kilda:

Adelaide 29081​

Brisbane 29604​

Fremantle 24287​

Gold Coast 23384​

GWS Giants 22752​

Port Adel 26028​

Sydney 33574​

West Coast 29159​

Finally, even if we abandoned Ballarat and other regional centres there's no guarantee the AFL would agree to us playing at the MCG. They need a decent quota of games played at Docklands to keep it viable and may not like the idea of the smaller clubs wanting more of the MCG action. There's also the issue of scheduling all the MCG games over a weekend and the recovery and management of the ground surface which may limit how many games the MCG can sustain.

Now the AFL owns AND controls Docklands it has significantly lower fixed costs than at any time we signed to play at Ballarat. We no longer lose money playing there.

With equalisation we were not losing money in the first place just not making money

It is highly likely we would make more from 2 Marquee MCG games than we would now from Ballarat given the States finances which fund our Ballarat sojourn.

St.kilda are making a push for more home Games at the G. They recognise the opportunity to grow.

Playing games in Ballarat is and will always not provide an opportunity for significant growth.

We can keep looking for poor alternatives, accept playing MCG tennants at Docklands or interstate as we do now, or we can be truly bold.

We did try this in 1996, unfortunately it was the year the club fell apart. We are a much stronger club now, do we want to become a middle power where the G is in the mix as a genuine home, or continue to be the poor old Bulldogs

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[lachy]

How do you know this? We haven't had home games scheduled at the MCG for decades.

A stadium that provides opportunities for tens of thousands more fans with finals like atmosphere v a ground that barely holds 10,000 and you are asking how anyone would know this???

Just on a personal note I do know a family who lives near Ballarat. Their son chose the Bulldogs as his team. First game he went to see us play, the MCG.

Symptomatic of Marketing 101, you want to grow your brand or club, take it to the Mecca to attract people, not out in the sticks

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[CarnTheScray]

Dump Ballarat for two Marquee MCG games a year. Even if they keep Ballarat, give us our replacement games back and build them up as our Marquee games each year. Promote them and aim for big crowds.

Honestly Ballarat is such small fry mentality. Play a preseason game there each year and that’s it.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Hawthorn playing 4 home games in Tasmania doesn’t give them a minnow mentality.

Only thing I agree with is the return of the replacement game system.

 

[lachy]

Hawthorn playing 4 home games in Tasmania doesn’t give them a minnow mentality.

Only thing I agree with is the return of the replacement game system.

Yes they have an agreement for 7 home and 4 away games at the MCG

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[CarnTheScray]

Yes they have an agreement for 7 home and 4 away games at the MCG

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

Wait so you’re telling me that the MCG is their home ground?

 

[BallaratBulldog]

Unfortunately one person will say one thing and someone else another

But there is no public number on the current deal (or at lest i don't see it) like there used to be prior (32k average breakout and amount made)

All we have are poor averages vs some interstate teams like GWS and likely weighed up by the club with the Ballarat deal.

The deal is better through AFL ownership but by how much is a question. Not to mention the recent upgrades there have to be paid back by someone.

My advice to anyone who doesn’t want games being sold is to turn up

 

[lachy]

Wait so you’re telling me that the MCG is their home ground?

Minnow mentality , play home games in Tasmania and then offset then with away games at the MCG, clearly

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[lachy]

Dogwatch made a valid point, it is unlikely the AFL would allow it. And really why would they when our club and many of our own supporters including many here don't believe we can grow to deserve it.

Being bold is not our club nor our support base

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[CarnTheScray]

Would rather push for more double ups vs VIC teams than get sent out of VIC 20 times a year and play low drawing sides at Marvel. Isn’t an insane request, we draw pretty well at Marvel and that’s without double ups vs any of the big 4 like other teams get.

 

[Mutt]

A stadium that provides opportunities for tens of thousands more fans with finals like atmosphere v a ground that barely holds 10,000 and you are asking how anyone would know this???

Just on a personal note I do know a family who lives near Ballarat. Their son chose the Bulldogs as his team. First game he went to see us play, the MCG.

Symptomatic of Marketing 101, you want to grow your brand or club, take it to the Mecca to attract people, not out in the sticks

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

You said:
"Yes the AFL has those commitments, we chose to play 2 home games at Ballarat, those could be at the MCG opening up greater opportunities for the AFL"

If we weren't playing games at Ballarat we'd be playing in Cairns or some other location that makes it financially attractive. If not, we'd play the two games at Marvel because the AFL NEVER fixtures a Bulldogs home game at the MCG. That was my point. We are not giving up playing games at the MCG to play in Ballarat or anywhere else.

 

[kazzooka]

No, Whitten Oval should be the same size as Docklands. Skinner Reserve should have been rebuilt to the same dimensions as the MCG.

But we should definitely dump the 2 home games at Ballarat for 2 home games at the MCG.

Surely you would just want your training oval to be BIGGER than the MCG or any other oval and then just paint the lines however you like?

 

[Next Waiting]

OK. If the Marvel stadium is our exclusive home ground, then the argument should be that we play all home finals except the Grand Final at Marvel.

It was hard enough getting a ticket to the G which can take 100k. How hard would it be getting one to a final played at Marvel?

Personally I'm more than happy to go to the G for every final we play. Don't know about the players, but if I were one, I think I'd like to play there too.

The result this year wasn't close enough to fully take advantage of the crowd size and it wasn't the result we wanted but .... 97K spectators ... it's a huge occasion and spectacle. More of it please.

 

[Mutt]

It was hard enough getting a ticket to the G which can take 100k. How hard would it be getting one to a final played at Marvel?

Personally I'm more than happy to go to the G for every final we play. Don't know about the players, but if I were one, I think I'd like to play there too.

The result this year wasn't close enough to fully take advantage of the crowd size and it wasn't the result we wanted but .... 97K spectators ... it's a huge occasion and spectacle. More of it please.

I'm not advocating that we never play finals at the G - just that it should be our choice up until the Grand Final.

 

[maddog37]

If we play at Marvel for finals you would assume with half the crowd capacity ticket prices would cost twice as much.

 

[WB_]

I'm not advocating that we never play finals at the G - just that it should be our choice up until the Grand Final.

That would be ideal, the ability to choose the MCG against non-MCG teams, and Marvel against a team like Hawthorn where the home ground advantage has been essentially reversed.

 

[Mutt]

If we play at Marvel for finals you would assume with half the crowd capacity ticket prices would cost twice as much.

I think that the better solution for us is to play our finals at the MCG and also some of our home games against larger drawing teams at the G—for example, our home games against Collingwood, Essendon, and Carlton should be played at the G. You could make a case that our home games against Hawthorn and Geelong could also be at the G if the game would be a sellout at Marvel.

The point I was originally making was that the AFL prevents us from playing home games at the G except for finals, where it prevents us from playing them at our home ground. Doubly screwed over by the AFL.