What is your political persuasion?

[Dr AlfAndrews]

Mine isn't there, I am far, far, far left, so I just picked the closest.

That would make you Dead Centre Normal, like me ... and everyone else is a frigwit

 

[WA ROO]

Don't think I can catagorise my political persuasion
I believe we need an old fashioned dictatorship with me in charge

 

[Dr AlfAndrews]

...
I believe we need an old fashioned dictatorship with me in charge

Well ....

... I agree with half of that statement

 

[- PC -]

This is clearly not true. Why do you insist with such an obvious mistruth?

We all have opinions on what the truth is

Also clearly not true. Keating will not be remembered as great. It's like declaring Gerard Neesham as great.

So he wasnt allowed a personal opinion? Or is there an index on how you rate greatness? Whether you think he was great doesnt mean afc cant..this is where you fall down in most of your arguments on here. You take your opinion as the base level of any discussion.Oh and this is my opinion ..so dont waste my time asking me to look at threads

 

[bunsen burner]

We all have opinions on what the truth is

Doesn't mean they can't be wrong. If someone had the opinion that 1 + 1 = 3, they'd still be wrong.

So he wasnt allowed a personal opinion? Or is there an index on how you rate greatness?

"Great" isn't really about opinion. Quite simply, whether AFC thinks he's great or not, he isn't.

Or are you trying to say that if I argued that Karl Langdon is the greatest football player you would not dispute it and put it down to "opinion"?

Please, get your hand off it.

 

[Bombers 2003]

Also clearly not true. Keating will not be remembered as great.

Clearly Keating is a great man,with a impressive intellect.But as BB says he will never be remembered as great.The remark about Nesham was rather gratitous.

 

[- PC -]

"Great" isn't really about opinion. Quite simply, whether AFC thinks he's great or not, he isn't.

Please point out who you consider to be the greatest in the last 50 years?

Or are you trying to say that if I argued that Karl Langdon is the greatest football player you would not dispute it and put it down to "opinion"?

I would not dispute your right to say it. I would allow that it is an opinion... I would also name footballers who I considered to be better. If you persisted with your argument that KL was the greatest footballer, then I would accept it as your belief, doesnt mean I agree. Thats what opinions are.But I wouldnt waste 10 pages of broadband arguing about it

 

[bunsen burner]

Please point out who you consider to be the greatest in the last 50 years?

Why last 50 years? AFC was talking all time. Seems you wanted to take Curtain out of the equation.

I would suggest Curtain or Hawke, both would have a stake to the claim. Keating wouldn't. Great PMs are about a number of things but they don't get kicked out on their arse after one term.

I would not dispute your right to say it. I would allow that it is an opinion... I would also name footballers who I considered to be better. If you persisted with your argument that KL was the greatest footballer, then I would accept it as your belief, doesnt mean I agree. Thats what opinions are.But I wouldnt waste 10 pages of broadband arguing about it

Repeat: get your hand off it. Clearly KL is not the greatest footballer. And if I said as such, I'd be wrong. Greatness is about individual opinion - it's about group opinion.

 

[- PC -]

Why last 50 years? AFC was talking all time. Seems you wanted to take Curtain out of the equation.

I'm equally surprised that you dropped Labor when its' gredatest leader in 50 years was in power

Please read threads properly before you yap away

I would suggest Curtain or Hawke, both would have a stake to the claim. Keating wouldn't. Great PMs are about a number of things but they don't get kicked out on their arse after one term.

Taking CurtIn out of the equation this leaves Whitlam,Hawke and Keating. So you say Hawke was the best Labor leader in the last 50 years?

Repeat: get your hand off it. Clearly KL is not the greatest footballer. And if I said as such, I'd be wrong. Greatness is about individual opinion - it's about group opinion.

Would you like to edit this?

 

[bunsen burner]

Please read threads properly before you yap away

Fair enough.

Taking CurtIn out of the equation this leaves Whitlam,Hawke and Keating. So you say Hawke was the best Labor leader in the last 50 years?

I'm not here to have a debate who's the greatest leader. But I'd think Hawke is higher up on the greatness list than Keating. I don't think Keating could be considered great period.

Would you like to edit this?

No point. It's an obvious typo.

 

[David Votoupal]

Determining what's "left" and "right"? On an economic perspective, I'm certainly not on the right but more to the centre- not advocating a socialist welfare state but neither am I a laissez-faire capitalist. Social issues for most part, however, would put me very much on the right. More apt to be classed as a conservative realist.

 

[afc9798]

Fair enough.


I'm not here to have a debate who's the greatest leader. But I'd think Hawke is higher up on the greatness list than Keating. I don't think Keating could be considered great period.

No point. It's an obvious typo.

You say greatness is about group opinion, then Keating would qualify as a great. There is a huge number of people who think of Keating as a great, not just me on my own.

I would say that on this basis, John Howard will be remembered as a great, not by me, but by a number of people. Keating's achievements are obvious to those who don't want to rely on his perceived character flaws to change his place in history. Hawke was a people's man and great in his own right, but simply because he didn't have a penchant for French clocks, classical music and architecture, doesn't make him a greater leader. Keating could lift the entire party's spirit with one quick verbal spar. No other leader inspired the love and hate like Keating did. Latham was a poor man's Keating, Howard is despised and pitied, but not loved or hated-even in his own party. Costello is just offensive to many, although I think he would make a fair leader at worst.

 

[Bombers 2003]

I would say that on this basis, John Howard will be remembered as a great, not by me, but by a number of people. Keating's achievements are obvious to those who don't want to rely on his perceived character flaws to change his place in history. Hawke was a people's man and great in his own right, but simply because he didn't have a penchant for French clocks, classical music and architecture, doesn't make him a greater leader. Keating could lift the entire party's spirit with one quick verbal spar. No other leader inspired the love and hate like Keating did. Latham was a poor man's Keating, Howard is despised and pitied, but not loved or hated-even in his own party. Costello is just offensive to many, although I think he would make a fair leader at worst.

Agree with most of this.What you say about Howard in his own party is true enough,eg Jeff Kennett's attitude to him.But try and convince Bunny etc about this and you'll hit the Brick wall of Hero worship.I dont agree with your view on Latham being a 'poor man's keating' more like a 'poor man's Whitlam'.

 

[Jumpin' Jimmy]

Quite frankly in the last 50 years none of our Prime Ministers measure up as great. All were serviceable, some promised greatness but none delivered in the final analysis.

Liberals like Menzies, Holt, McMahon and Howard led the cultural cringe by kowtowing to the Queen or US Presidents. Fraser offered strength but lacked empathy until after his downfall.

Whitlam offered genuine nationalistic pride but lost the rudder on economic responsibility. Hawke was a populist leader who, like Howard now, got carried away with his own "invincibility"....... and like a punch drunk boxer went one fight too many. In the process he damaged his own reputation and gave Keating no real chance to fully establish himself....... exactly as Howard is now doing with Costello.

 

[raskolnikov]

Democratic Socialist

 

[bunsen burner]

You say greatness is about group opinion, then Keating would qualify as a great. There is a huge number of people who think of Keating as a great, not just me on my own.

No there's not. If people felt he's great he would have one more than one election. There's just a groupf people who strongly believe he's the man and would have gone on to great things had he won more elections. That's not enough to be considered great. People are welcome to worship the guy but great he is not.

I would say that on this basis, John Howard will be remembered as a great, not by me, but by a number of people.

Forget number of people and different pockets of people. There's people who don't consider Wayne Carey to be great, but that doesn't mean he isn't great.

The jury is still out for whether or not Howard will be considered great. He's certainly been around long enough to make an impression. I think it will hinge on Iraq and the future economic well being of Australia. He had a bet each way with Iraq. He went in but didn't throw too many troops in, and didn't tell the blatant lies of Bush and Blair. If they found WMD he'd look to many as a strong pro-active leader, but if many Aussies died he be frowned upon. The overall consensus will be that he made a mistake but not bad enough to hang his reputation on. On the economy, as long as there are no long term negatives similar to what happened after the Thatcher years, he'll get a thumbs up for his economic performance.

Howard is despised and pitied, but not loved or hated-even in his own party.

Like your comments re Howard stealing Pauline's policies, you have a skewed view on reality. Howard has kept his party unified and in power even though many in his govt inevitably have differing views. Respect would be the operative word I'd think.

 

[Dr AlfAndrews]

No there's not. If people felt he's great he would have one more than one election. There's just a groupf people who strongly believe he's the man and would have gone on to great things had he won more elections. That's not enough to be considered great. People are welcome to worship the guy but great he is not.

Forget number of people and different pockets of people. There's people who don't consider Wayne Carey to be great, but that doesn't mean he isn't great.

The jury is still out for whether or not Howard will be considered great. He's certainly been around long enough to make an impression. I think it will hinge on Iraq and the future economic well being of Australia. He had a bet each way with Iraq. He went in but didn't throw too many troops in, and didn't tell the blatant lies of Bush and Blair. If they found WMD he'd look to many as a strong pro-active leader, but if many Aussies died he be frowned upon. The overall consensus will be that he made a mistake but not bad enough to hang his reputation on. On the economy, as long as there are no long term negatives similar to what happened after the Thatcher years, he'll get a thumbs up for his economic performance.

Like your comments re Howard stealing Pauline's policies, you have a skewed view on reality. Howard has kept his party unified and in power even though many in his govt inevitably have differing views. Respect would be the operative word I'd think.

Another litany of assertions and value judgements.

As Big Footy's Master of Linear Reasoning, would you care to back up this load of drivel ... or do we just have to accept it as gospel?

 

[- PC -]

Another litany of assertions and value judgements.

As Big Footy's Master of Linear Reasoning, would you care to back up this load of drivel ... or do we just have to accept it as gospel?

We have to accept it as gospel..BB doesnt have opinions..only truths

 

[FuManchu]

Fascist/Communist with a liberal dose of radicalism thrown in

 

[Frodo]

I grew up with Left-wing political views thanks to the influence of my father. I actually supported their ideals, when they represented the working class people, however, now the mainstream left has been hijacked by minority groups: homosexuals, feminism, multiculturalism, greenies.

I voted in all State (Victoria) and Federal elections for the ALP, until the last election when I voted for the CLP in the NT. Moving to the NT has changed my mindset.

Well done. One of the few that challenge the indoctrination of their upbringing and become themselves rather than a mouthpiece of their mentors.

 

[Mr Crow!]

I am really suprised that there is only one person who voted for the center. It really seems that politics is polarized... well, in this forum anyway!

 

[CharlieG]

Well done. One of the few that challenge the indoctrination of their upbringing and become themselves rather than a mouthpiece of their mentors.

LOL.

 

[bunsen burner]

Another litany of assertions and value judgements.

As Big Footy's Master of Linear Reasoning, would you care to back up this load of drivel ... or do we just have to accept it as gospel?

A load of drivel but you didn't care to dispute it?

FACT: Keating is not "great"
FACT: Howard has had the respect of the Liberal Party
FACT: Howard did not steal Pauline's policies.

Feel free to provide any evidence to the contrary.

 

[CharlieG]

A load of drivel but you didn't care to dispute it?

FACT: Keating is not "great"
FACT: Howard has had the respect of the Liberal Party
FACT: Howard did not steal Pauline's policies.

Feel free to provide any evidence to the contrary.

I can't be bothered arguing the relative merits of those three claims, but I'll just point out that they are not facts. They are opinions.

Keating's greatness is a subjective quality, and thus cannot be factual. The respect of Howard from the Liberal Party is a subjective quality, and thus cannot be factual. As for the last one - that hinges on whether Howard was a racist redneck bigot with racist redneck policies before Pauline showed up... or if they appeared as a result of her success. Again, subjective.

 

[Mr Crow!]

Well done. One of the few that challenge the indoctrination of their upbringing and become themselves rather than a mouthpiece of their mentors.

Thankyou. Yet, now I recieve abuse from a forum such as this for stating common sense!