WSYD What needs to happen for WS to work

[mediumsizered]

Geographically you are correct but all these suburbs must be in the proposed catchment area for the proposed new team.

My turn to correct your claim that Western Suburbs still exists in the NRL. I've checked this year fixtures and cannot see them. To say Western Suburbs still exist is like saying Fitzroy still exist, I think most people would disagree with you on that.

I would be surprised if the AFL were looking towards Campbelltown, Rosemeadow, Macquarie Fields etc as a proposed catchment area. I'm sure their target would be the geographic western suburbs, rather than the outer south western suburbs.

As for Western Suburbs Rugby League Club, the merged entity may have dropped 'Suburbs' from the name, but are still called Wests Tigers & are predominantly referred to as Wests by many of their supporters. They also still play home games at Campbelltown, whereas we don't see the Brisbane Lions playing home games at Brunswick St or the Junction Oval, or in Melbourne generally.

 

[shiraz]

First of all, if you say 'Wests' in Sydney, everyone knows who you mean. You aren't going to get corrected.

Now, here are a bunch of shot from the hip opinions. You don't have to like 'em but they are offered as food for thought.

I see a lot of negativity here about a second team in Sydney, however, think a second team in Sydney will do wonders for the AFL in Sydney. Here's some reasoning.

When the Swans came to Sydney, it was a bit like a foreign invasion. Further, the club seemed to be more in allegience and tied to South Melbourne. Rugby League's media outfit managed to get AFL portrayed as softer than League, a perception which was reinforced as the Swans attracted more upper class members.

Now imagine that the only games of AFL you see on TV are Swans games. You see the team suck for a decade, and then rise to the top and take a premiership with an unattractive style of play. Now, when people choose to follow the Swans, it is easy for Sydney-siders who don't follow AFL to write them off as people rejecting blue collar Sydney and choosing a white collar faux-Melbourne (anti-Sydney) AFL (not pretending this is valid, just how I think it is seen).

A new team based in Western Sydney 2012 has the following benefits.
- unlike the Swans, it would be Sydney homegrown, not a faux Melbourne import trumpeting 100 yrs of history somewhere else.
- unlike the Swans, it would be inarguably blue collar, which would naturally oppose the view people have of the Swans.
- since the Swans appear to be entering a down cycle, and may still be down when WS comes in, WS might be in good stead for early local derbies.
- Swans supporters will hate WS for taking the draft picks that they needed
- for all those reasons, a rivalry is likely to arise surprisingly naturally, so long as marketeers dont over sell it
- Sydney-siders will get to see another game plan besides the uber-flood. To be honest, I think Sydney was way more fun to watch last year, and likely to get better, so this isn't the most important. But I hope other folks can imagine what it has been like following AFL in Sydney. Not the most conducive environment to attract supporters. And yet I keep reading here that Sydney people just don't like AFL, as if they are magically different. AFL is a better game, it's just that the environment hasn't been right here. I wont bang on about the troubles League is in, because it isn't terminal, but on the other hand, it is serious, and I think the AFL is correct in pressing the attack at this time.

ok, rant over.

 

[Helix]

This is all academic. Anyone within driving distance or public transport distance of the home ground is the target market. That is over half of Sydney. We could do a poll of how many big footy supporters live within 5km of there club's home ground. Probably not that many.

 

[wikipediaAFLproject]

This is all academic. Anyone within driving distance or public transport distance of the home ground is the target market. That is over half of Sydney. We could do a poll of how many big footy supporters live within 5km of there club's home ground. Probably not that many.

And if they improve their public transport system then we will get even more to the grounds.

 

[RUNVS]

And if they improve their public transport system then we will get even more to the grounds.

That probably wont be happening for awhile. The NSW government is currently in a terrible position financially and they have no money for major transport upgrades.

 

[Golen Swans]

Except what was said was , whereas this also true of Tasmania.
Tasmania is the only state where more than 50% of the population live more than 100km frm the capital.
The populations and distances are smaller, but by some measures Tasmania has a more spread population than Qld.

How many heads are you counting though?

 

[wikipediaAFLproject]

That probably wont be happening for awhile. The NSW government is currently in a terrible position financially and they have no money for major transport upgrades.

IMO NSW should be split in two. The government simply does not care about the rural and regional areas, and simply wastes money on the city.

If NSW was split in two, i wonder if sporting organisations like the AFL would try to place teams in places like Albury?

 

[whiteandred]

I don't pretend to know more about Sydney than a local (can't really stand the place), but I feel the need to correct a couple of errant claims you have made.

Western Suburbs still exists in the NRL, albeit having merged with Balmain. They still play some of their home games at Campbelltown, their longstanding home ground. Campbelltown is SW of Sydney approximately 32km from Bankstown (the proposed headquarters of the West Sydney team), which sits roughly WNW of Sydney.

Many of the surrounding suburbs to Campbelltown eg Minto, Macquarie Fields, Casula, contain significant concentrations of Ministry of Housing properties. Hardly a region in which even a rugby league team could build a strong financial foundation. No surprise that Wests had to consider a merger, in which they had to give up their colours & change from Magpies to Tigers.

Rosemeadow, the suburb in which the most recent riots took place (not to be confused with the riots at the aforementioned Macquarie Fields, a little while ago), lies a further 7km (approx) south of Campbelltown, putting it approx 39km sw from Bankstown.

I doubt very much that the AFL is looking to these areas for potential supporters of a West Sydney team that will be located a significant distance away from the regions of which you speak.

• dunno4, "Doesn’t know" much about his own city does he … sounds like a blow in from Werribee based on his knowledge of riot control though!
• Wests Leagues Club was actually located at Ashfield, (about the same travel time to the city as Coogee), for it’s first 80 or so years … lack of juniors saw them follow the urban sprawl west and $’s made the amalgamation with Balmain unavoidable.
• West Tigers Leagues Club at Campbelltown does very well thank you, with huge income derived from gaming, because of it’s proximity to the Housing Commission areas.
• Blacktown (not Bankstown) WNW of Sydney is the proposed location for the WS Franchise. It is in fact a very similar socio economic population to Campbelltown, and has areas like Mt Druitt which are very similar to Rosemeadow. Patronage of; Sydney Olymics, Royal Easter Show, NRL Finals and Swans games, amongst other events held at Homebush, has proved to be very strong from these areas (they do carry out some research).
• In my opinion, a new franchise is pie in the sky … this location with it’s poor, uneducated, vile, unemployable, undesirable population would in fact seem the perfect place to relocate Collingwood FC … slip their supporters a “micky”, ship them from Broady to Rooty Hill … they would wake up the next morning and never know the difference!

… oh and so far as the assertions that Eastern Suburbs is the mecca of junior football in Sydney, why are they trying to join the North Shore Region?? … oh that’s right, there are no other teams in their region with any numbers! … but if you have Chris Langford and Paul Roos (to name a few) on our coaching roster, you expect your club to do OK.

North Shore and North West are easily the biggest areas by participation numbers in Greater Sydney Junior Football… all stations to Blacktown via Homebush … sorry not terribly convenient for the Bondi Snobs … bad luck!

 

[dunno4]

whiteandred;

dunno4, "Doesn’t know" much about his own city does he … sounds like a blow in from Werribee based on his knowledge of riot control though

Busted! The exact location of each of the suburbs in Western Sydney is not my stong point.

Wests Leagues Club was actually located at Ashfield, (about the same travel time to the city as Coogee), for it’s first 80 or so years … lack of juniors saw them follow the urban sprawl west and $’s made the amalgamation with Balmain unavoidable

Exactly my point

West Tigers Leagues Club at Campbelltown does very well thank you, with huge income derived from gaming, of it’s proximity to the Housing Commission areas.

Not from football revenue! Maybe it would be easier if the AFL just opened a pokie venue. A lot easier and makes more sense.

Blacktown (not Bankstown) WNW of Sydney is the proposed location for the WS Franchise. It is in fact a very similar socio economic population to Campbelltown, and has areas like Mt Druitt which are very similar to Rosemeadow. Patronage of; Sydney Olymics, Royal Easter Show, NRL Finals and Swans games, amongst other events held at Homebush, has proved to be very strong from these areas (they do carry out some research)

Mmm......19,000 to a semi final at Homebush. Great patronage.

In my opinion, a new franchise is pie in the sky … this location with it’s poor, uneducated, vile, unemployable, undesirable population would in fact seem the perfect place to relocate Collingwood FC … slip their supporters a “micky”, ship them from Broady to Rooty Hill … they would wake up the next morning and never know the difference.

Harsh and maybe a bit too close to the bone!

… oh and so far as the assertions that Eastern Suburbs is the mecca of junior football in Sydney, why are they trying to join the North Shore Region?? … oh that’s right, there are no other teams in their region with any numbers! … but if you have Chris Langford and Paul Roos (to name a few) on our coaching roster, you expect your club to do OK.

Notice neither of them live north, Roosy in Randwick and Langford in Rose Bay!!

I don't get your point here, why wouldn't it make sense to put the best teams together in one comp?? I've re-read my post and don't see anywhere I asserted Easts were the mecca of junior football, in fact I agree it has nowhere near as many junior players as North Shore Region, hence the desire to play in a stronger comp.

North Shore and North West are easily the biggest areas by participation numbers in Greater Sydney Junior Football… all stations to Blacktown via Homebush … sorry not terribly convenient for the Bondi Snobs … bad luck!

Not a problem, my driver has a Navman!

 

[whiteandred]

whiteandred;

Not a problem, my driver has a Navman!

... all jokes aside, I would love Sydney's Western Suburbs to embrace AFL, but, the football supporting culture in Sydney is just totally different ... I call it transient ... but, it is because there is no MEMBERSHIP COMMITMENT ... and exactly right, Sydney Rugby League Club LEAGUES CLUBS are and always have been by and large filthy rich from pokie revenue... but not much of that filters to the Football club. SO, if you were say a Bulldogs or Dragons fan, you would never bother joining the club ... you would just buy a ticket to the games you wanted to attend ... season tickets are a relatively new concept, and not particularly well patronised anyway. The supporters stay loyal to their club, just don't bother going to games if they are struggling.

For Victorians it is almost a birth rite that you join your local club and remain a member till death ... even if like my Bomber fan mate in Qld, you have not lived in Victoria for 35 years! ... MUST STAY FINANCIAL! ... and THAT was how the clubs were funded for ever!

How do we get that sort of culture up here? ... if there is rivalry between 2 local entities, that has to help, and it has to permeate thru every AFL club in the city, Senior and Junior ... you are either aligned with the Swan's or you are a Western Wombat!

State wide interest would help too ... aligning ACT with one and Riverina the other for example ... I'm sure we have the population to support 2 clubs, and hopefully it happens ... might be a few years further off just yet though.

 

[cos789]

I would be surprised if the AFL were looking towards Campbelltown, Rosemeadow, Macquarie Fields etc as a proposed catchment area. I'm sure their target would be the geographic western suburbs, rather than the outer south western suburbs.

I'd be surprised if they were'n't included .
It's all quite simple really .The huge majority of suburbia is West of Sydney whether it's NW,SW,WNW,WSW or South Coast .Being centrally located a WS team can potentially draw from all of Sydney whilst the same can't be said of the Swans .Whilst there might be some problems Homebush is very well served by the train system whilst the SCG is not .Just because there have been sporting teams associated with specific areas of the WS that has no real relevance to the development of this new team in a differing code .

 

[Golen Swans]

Old matey mayor on the council that was plugging for em to be based at Blacktown got voted out last month. Don't discount the loyalty of people to league up there.....

 

[Hoops]

Old matey mayor on the council that was plugging for em to be based at Blacktown got voted out last month. Don't discount the loyalty of people to league up there.....

So they voted out a mayor because he supported entering a team in Australias premier sporting competition. Give the people of WS a bit more credit than that. surely they are not that insecure about their NRL

 

[Magpie03]

Don't be under any illusions West Sydney will be the biggest unmitigated disaster and the only good thing to come out of it will be the resultant change in the AFL administration.

Think about these points:

1/ I live in Sydney and where they are proposing to play the games is a good hours drive from the city. More from the North Shore and East where the bulk of AFL support is.

2/ The interest levels in sport in general, let alone AFL is minimal put where they are proposing to play.

3/ Hey anyone remember Western Suburbs Rugby League club?? Not even a league club survived out there.

4/ They could only get 19,000 to a FINAL at Homebush, and West Sydney will be a further half hour west!

5/ My kids play for East Sydney Bulldogs, when we travel to play Western Suburbs (which is only at Croyden Park half way to proposed West Sydney location) they are lucky to have 8 or 9 players for each junior team. Easts have to make up numbers.

6/ Has anybody been watching the recent riots out where this team is going to be? Unemployment is in double digits and rising, who is going to buy tickets? Who is going to buy memberships and merchandise?

7/ TV rights are not going to be worth what they were last time. This is supposedly the driver for the West Sydney team.

I feels sorry for Tasmania and Canberra, markets where people might actually go to games and teams might actually succeed.

The whole West Sydney thing is one mans folly and the game will be forever tarnished by it.

Point 1 - Rubbish - Maybe an hours drive from Bondi Junction through traffic etc. City to Homebush = 1/2 an hour - Airport to the new training facilities at Blacktown Olympic park = 45 minutes via M5 and M7 - I live somewhat further out and those times are conservative.

Point 2 - Rubbish again - maybe you should take your head out of the sand and check out the area you a speaking of before making fliipant remarks - If sport is dead out there how could East Coast Eagles have mangaed to justify and achieve the building of a multi million dollar state of the art AFL venue at Kellyville only 15 minutes from the blacktown olympic precint.

Point 3 - More Rubbish - The whole super league fiasco led to this. What happened to the North Sydney Bears? Why did St George and Wollongong Merge. South Sydney gone altogether until a supporter revolt led to their eventual reintroduction. Rubgy league and AFL's administration are worlds apart in their day to day running and should never be compared.

Point 4 - I think you already realise your folly here.

Point 5 - I can comment on Western Suburbs juniors but find it surprising that the Bulldogs even play in the same junior competition. Perhaps you should look a little further west though where you can see teams just down the road like Bankstown and Holsworthy who have multiple teams in their various age groups. The inner city though has been notorious for poor junior participation hence the senior clubs have always stuggled to develop their own players. Maybe you havnt been around long enough to know that what you probably know as the UNSW East Sydney Bulldogs were actually two senior clubs not all that long ago - why if the junior participation in this area is so fabulous would there clubs have felt the need to merge?

Point 6 - Again more complete and utter rubbish - What riots are you speaking off - the ones at Macquaire fields or the neighbourhood dispute at Rosemeadow? Both of these areas are more than 1/2 an hour from the proposed training venue at Blacktown and even futher from Homebush where games will be played. Also please tell me where your double digit unemployment figures come from. Do you forget that Matraville and surrounding suburbs also has a high density of pulic housing - that the Bra Boys were alledged to have rioted with police and now are involved in an alledged turf war with the Comancheros. Please stop belittling your own inteligence by using small isolated instances to support your weak argument.

You say who will by memberships - Perhaps you should look at the residents of Bella Vista where the mediam house value is well inexcess of $700000 or the neighbouring Kellyvillie and Rouse Hill areas where median values are around the $500,000 mark. There three areas are only 20 minutes from home bush and around 10 minutes from Blacktown olympic park. I doubt the unemployment figues in these areas are in double digits but more likely around 3% which would be lower than the national average and probaly far lower than the eastern suburbs.

Point 7 - Who knows what the TV rights will be when next negotiated but then again how much money has the AFL had to invest in the Swans to make them successfull? I remember going to games in the early 90's and getting free admision for having something red on - on one occasion I clipped a red pen to the front of my shirt and this sufficed. The reason that the Swans eventually became entrenched in the Sydney was due to icons such as Plugger and Barassi and there eventual break through in 2005.

I dont care much for the Swans and whilst I would never cease supporting the team I have supported all my life would get behind a club in Western Sydney and I know a hell of a lot of people out here who would.

 

[Helix]

Good Post.