Who is holding Carlton back more?

[Zeke]

Ratts came in, lifted the club off the bottom of the ladder... that was his job.

To be fair, his initial job was to not lift them off the bottom of the ladder. He succeeded in that preliminary task, at least.

To problem with prolonged systematic tanking is that it seems to affect the very fibre of the playing group. It hangs around in the psyche and rears its ugly head when the heat is on. That's why we've had fancied sides in Melbourne and Carlton (in recent years) fail to live up to internal and external expectations and yet not seem to give a toss. They've been conditioned to lose without consequence. It's natural now.

 

[gaelictiogar]

To be fair, his initial job was to not lift them off the bottom of the ladder. He succeeded in that preliminary task, at least.

To problem with prolonged systematic tanking is that it seems to affect the very fibre of the playing group. It hangs around in the psyche and rears its ugly head when the heat is on. That's why we've had fancied sides in Melbourne and Carlton (in recent years) fail to live up to internal and external expectations and yet not seem to give a toss. They've been conditioned to lose without consequence. It's natural now.

Probably some truth in that if Blues are honest. It's almost as if in some ways Carlton is a shrunken diminished entity riven by assumptions of superiority.

 

[TBoyleSuperstar]

Tough call. I'd say Ratten, purely as I'm not sure he has the players playing in the right position. Gibbs had to play midfield when Murphy got injured, his insistance on trying to play 3 ruckman when it's clearly not working, him not dropping Garlett despite putrid form. Kernhan backed in his man, which based on their continual improvement over the past few years, it made sense, but Ratten needs to get the players up every week and pick the side. This is where they are failing

 

[Killer eagle]

http://newsstore.fairfax.com.au/app...ls=15923&clsPage=1&docID=NCH120419D56P35EH7PI

Interesting to read an article after the collingwood win.

CARLTON have embraced their new status as AFL premiership favourites and coach Brett Ratten says his troops no longer shy away from great expectations.
The unbeaten Blues' big win over Collingwood on Friday night has caused them to join or replace Hawthorn as the flag favourites with major betting agencies.

Ratten said yesterday that in previous years such hype might have messed with his players' minds, but they had matured.

"Four and five years ago, the group tried to avoid those [expectations] and not really deal with it," he said. "Now they're really looking forward to it and the challenge.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I am no fan of Carlton but I have to admit over the last couple of years to have been a fan of Brett Ratten. Always seemed a really good bloke, who is genuinely passionate about his club and I always found his press conferences good value. Spoke frankly and openly.

Geez it's hard to fight against the tide of public sentiment though when it turns. Once the media start painting a particular picture, it's very hard to keep backing yourself in and getting people to follow. And let's face it, Carlton genuinely looked like the team to beat early this year. There was nothing smoke and mirrors about their win over the Pies, that was genuine domination. Now that the wheels have fallen off now the media are going to hammer the "riches to rags" story all the way home, especially if it leads to the media's favorite event... a coach sacking. Did anyone really have an issue with Ratten coaching from the sidelines showing genuine emotional excitement when Carlton were beating all who came up against them? It was obviously working then, yet when the team hits a rough patch suddenly the tide of perception changes and he is sent back up to the coaches box for the sake of appearances.

It's very hard to not get swept up in the tide as an observer too. Now when Ratten says each week "I genuinely believe we are one or two weeks away from the tide starting to turn back in our favour" I am conditioned to cringe, even though he could very well be right. We've seen what kind of footy they can play and they undoubtedly have quality players to come back in, including a top 5 midfielder in the competition. Maybe depth is the issue, but because a head recruiter getting sacked isn't anywhere near as sexy as a coach lynching, there is no real incentive for the media to explore this issue in depth. A few more insightful journos will ask those questions but they will be invariably drowned out by the Damien Barrett and Craig Hutchisons of the world.

My overall point in this meandering rant is that being an AFL coach sucks. Footy clubs are complex organizations and as a coach, in most cases you are signing up be to a sacrificial lamb in 4-5 years time for clubs whose issues are far more wide reaching than yourself.

 

[bluemarq]

I keep hearing they have injuries, but apart from Murphy,Waite and Laidler, who else have I missed??

The talent is just not there and I am so happy about it.

The talent IS obviously there- they missed top 4 by a hairs breadth last year, while running the premier to literally the last second and handing your team two humiliating thrashings.

I'm not sure what's wrong...but Ratten said at the start of the season that top 4 was a pass mark. So by his own measure, he's failed.

 

[MagpieMilitia]

I will be shattered if Carlton let go either Ratten or Kernahan. Their continued tenure at the club guarantees mediocrity.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I reckon theres a story brewing at Carlton. VFL coaches dont just quit midseason for no reason. Reckon theres a lot more policitics that have gone unreported.

 

[bluemarq]

[quote="Zeke, post: 24689246, member: 6865"

To problem with prolonged systematic tanking is that it seems to affect the very fibre of the playing group. It hangs around in the psyche and rears its ugly head when the heat is on.[/quote]

Then why did the blues make the finals last year? And the the before that? And the year before that?

Stop talking ****.

 

[ytpme]

The talent IS obviously there- they missed top 4 by a hairs breadth last year, while running the premier to literally the last second and handing your team two humiliating thrashings.

I'm not sure what's wrong...but Ratten said at the start of the season that top 4 was a pass mark. So by his own measure, he's failed.

10 points a hair's breadth???

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

10 points a hair's breadth???

No but 3 points in a semi is.

 

[Terex8]

No but 3 points in a semi is.

In my view, 'top four' in that context generally means in the H&A season.

We finished 7th in 2007 at the end of the H&A season, then we made the PF on the back of 2 wins in September. I wouldn't call that season a 'top 4' season.

 

[pazza]

I reckon theres a story brewing at Carlton. VFL coaches dont just quit midseason for no reason. Reckon theres a lot more policitics that have gone unreported.

I think that's rather pertinent.

Robert Hyde's sacking out at Cramer St has to be a symptom of the problem.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

In my view, 'top four' in that context generally means in the H&A season.

We finished 7th in 2007 at the end of the H&A season, then we made the PF on the back of 2 wins in September. I wouldn't call that season a 'top 4' season.

Semantics. The call could have been made based on that. Really, when you consider luck with injuries and unbalanced draws, the home and away season is not the be all and end all. It just puts you in prime position to manage your players fatigue levels, gain home ground advantage etc.

Come the finals this year, any number of teams (maybe aside from Collingwood who have stepped it up again) can beat each other regardless of home ground or finishing position.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I think that's rather pertinent.

Robert Hyde's sacking out at Cramer St has to be a symptom of the problem.

He was only working part time and Carlton wanted full time. You may still be right, but I can see their reasoning, especially given the dire performances of the Northern Blues this year. Nobody seems to be developing down there.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

He was only working part time and Carlton wanted full time. You may still be right, but I can see their reasoning, especially given the dire performances of the Northern Blues this year. Nobody seems to be developing down there.

Surely these things get decided in the off season.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Surely these things get decided in the off season.

You'd think so, but I don't know the background. Could be an excuse I guess. The main issue for me is that there was zero development in evidence in our VFL side. Take Watson for example ... he has played equally as well if not better in our senior side than he was playing in the VFL. He was basically gifted a senior spot by necessity without having banged down the door. Makes you wonder how many others would be better off getting a senior gig instead of wasting away in the twos. We'd certainly love to get a look at Mitchell, McCarthy and McInnes structure wise.

 

[TuskenRaider]

Maybe depth is the issue, but because a head recruiter getting sacked isn't anywhere near as sexy as a coach lynching, there is no real incentive for the media to explore this issue in depth. A few more insightful journos will ask those questions but they will be invariably drowned out by the Damien Barrett and Craig Hutchisons of the world.

My overall point in this meandering rant is that being an AFL coach sucks. Footy clubs are complex organizations and as a coach, in most cases you are signing up be to a sacrificial lamb in 4-5 years time for clubs whose issues are far more wide reaching than yourself.

These two paragraphs sum it up fairly well.

The problem is there isn't too many insightful journos these days, rare as hen's teeth.

A few injuries to key players have shown a drastic lack of depth at Carlton, and recruiters/development coaches need to be looked at every bit has hard as Ratten.

Why they got rid of O'Hailpin I don't know. He will never be a superstar but always provided a hard lead up contest when required, especially in the absence of Waite. If someone was in his way he would crash hard into them and create a spill. Waite is out injured or suspended so often that you need someone ready to fill a key forward spot, and we don't have it.

The three rucks struggle as key forwards, especially Hampson and Warnock. They are simply not mobile enough to get clear on a lead and don't take enough contested grabs which in fairness are pretty hard to get many of deep forward these days.

 

[Pj.Rj.Hj]

The talent IS obviously there- they missed top 4 by a hairs breadth last year, while running the premier to literally the last second.

Ahahaha, 2 1/2 wins outside the top 4 is a 'hairsbreadth" these days. While your mob "ran the premier to literally the last second", West Coast actually beat Geelong but a guess a close loss is more confidence inspiring than a close win when going into a prelim against a hardened Geelong outfit .
Those Brave Blues.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

To be fair, his initial job was to not lift them off the bottom of the ladder. He succeeded in that preliminary task, at least.

To problem with prolonged systematic tanking is that it seems to affect the very fibre of the playing group. It hangs around in the psyche and rears its ugly head when the heat is on. That's why we've had fancied sides in Melbourne and Carlton (in recent years) fail to live up to internal and external expectations and yet not seem to give a toss. They've been conditioned to lose without consequence. It's natural now.

That's also my theory with Gold Coast and GWS. All they are doing is teaching young players how to lose.

 

[deck]

He was only working part time and Carlton wanted full time. You may still be right, but I can see their reasoning, especially given the dire performances of the Northern Blues this year. Nobody seems to be developing down there.

That's Rattens fault not Hydes. Ratten chased him and he could only commit to part time but Ratten wanted him anyway. Then to have Ratten storm out at qtr time and take over the huddle in front of everyone was enough for Hyde.

The problem at Carlton is both Kernahan and Ratten.

 

[Call Me Cake]

The uneven and overrated list.

 

[JustaBattler]

No forward structure to kick to. Not enough hard bodies to choose from. Too many injuries. A big mess for someone to have to clean up in due course.

Yeah there is a core of Top4 quality players and genuine superstars - but there is a very very big difference between the top10 players and the next 20. To many injuries to too many of these top10 players. A real shame having to watch Judd/Kreuzer/Yarran/Henderson play injured week in week out. Now add Laidler/Murphy/Carrazzo/Waite are huge injury outs for most of the year - and it is easy to see how CFC have gone from a genuine top4 chance - to a middle of the road team at best.

Yeah they can bounce back because of talent - but body size and genuine forward structure including two talls to kick to - have to be put in place.

Bitter disappointment this year - very nasty.

 

[dumb]

waite and hampson are eternal teases. certainly capable but obviously inconsistent and injured/suspended. gibbs and walker would be classed as the same by others but they'd also recognise the coach might be influencing that.
i think the problems are too widespread to simply blame ratten, though he appears most responsible for the strange positional stuff (both individual players and game style) taking place.

sticks is certainly in the john elliot mold. not particularly media savvy and perhaps has more passion than brains.

 

[Pat_Footy]

I think their recruitment is holding them back.
Yarran, although an ok player was a poor choice. Sometimes the "best-available" isn't the right choice.