Who is holding Carlton back more?

[HARKER]

I don't really care, but isn't it great.

Yeah, it's all terrific.
Let's just leave some facts behind and rejoice in others' problems.

Maybe Carlton have just had a bad run with injuries.
It has happened to our club in the past two years and all of our clubs will have our share of years ruined by injury, but hell let's just find a scapegoat and take them out to slaughter.
If we line up Ratten and Kernahan properly, we may even be able to take them out with the one bullet.
That should make everything better.

 

[HARKER]

I keep hearing they have injuries, but apart from Murphy,Waite and Laidler, who else have I missed??
The talent is just not there and I am so happy about it.

Sure, that's the way sport.

No you haven't missed anyone. Your footballing nous seems to be in full control.

 

[fishardansin]

The McLean and Henderson trades are what has hurt them long term. If they had have worked out the way they hoped they would have been challenging last year. If McLean was a high quality inside mid then he, Ellard and Robinson, with the support of Carrazzo working as a tagger could shoulder the inside load with Judd working with them and finishing their work, rather then doing all the bullocking work themselves then they'd get a lot more ball. It would allow Murphy to play off a wing and be more damaging, he and Simpson would work well together in that role, with the support of Yarran. Yarran shouldn't be in defense because he is just not good enough overhead. It is well and good to have a damaging running player off the back flank but they can't be a player who can be exposed in the air.

Gibbs will always be a little soft, that's the way he is. Despite this he has great vision and exquisite finishing, he is also pretty good overhead. I think he'd be a star off the forward flank pushing into the midfield and basically playing as an extra mid forward of the ball and distributing into the forward line.

Duigan and Laidler were great pick ups last year and they added a lot to the backline. The run that Duigan and Scotland bring is enough to not need Yarran back there.

Henderson has become a good contributer down back but going forward I think Watson will be a much better option for them in combination with Jamison and Laidler as third tall. They needed him to be good up forward. A good KPF working with Waite would give them long targets when under pressure in the midfield. With the class that Betts and Garlett are capable of they would feed off the twin KPFs scraps. Walker is good as a genuine 3rd tall who has pace and can play as a lead up. Gibbs would be the final piece in that puzzle playing the role I already mentioned of half forward.

I don't think it is window closed for Carlton just yet. They can challenge again next year if they can have some injury luck, another inside mid, two good KPFs and a good coach. I don't know if this will happen with Sticks at the top. I am also not sure that they can get the pieces of the puzzle required.

So I'd say that Ratten and Sticks have to go so Carlton can become a ruthless professional outfit rather than the mates club it has become.

As an Essendon supporter my hate for Carlton is strong. However, I still want to see a finals series with the mighty bombers fighting it out with the biggest Melbourne clubs. Yes Collinwood, Carlton and Richmond.

I think that Carlton should hire Malthouse, but not as coach. I think that he can come along, review the list and the whole footy department and report to a right sized, modern, professional and ruthless board on what exactly is required to lift the club out of its mire. He could stay on in a role similar to what Thompson is doing at Essendon, which is basically rebuilding the footy department.

 

[ziad]

Its not like they have on field leadership problems is it?

Perhaps it is time to wave a few fresh hungies under Judds nose to get him up for the game.

 

[BF Tiger]

Yeah, it's all terrific.
Let's just leave some facts behind and rejoice in others' problems.

Maybe Carlton have just had a bad run with injuries.
It has happened to our club in the past two years and all of our clubs will have our share of years ruined by injury, but hell let's just find a scapegoat and take them out to slaughter.
If we line up Ratten and Kernahan properly, we may even be able to take them out with the one bullet.
That should make everything better.

Geez Harker, I hope you have not had any pot shots at the Tigers over what has happened today then mate.

Look, it's as simple as this - I don't like Carlton and I am happy to see them lose. I am sure there are teams that you feel the same about.

It's only the failings (which may only be temporary) of a football club, not world hunger, that I am rejoicing in.

 

[Xeno]

Brett Ratten has done an outstanding Job in lifting Carlton - he has played in the finals, wining one etc.

This year the team has been absolutely devastated by Injuries - there are a lot more than people actually realise right through our seconds and rookies.

No we were not Geelong or Pies - premiership teams who are much more able to bring in rookies and cover them in a well structured, well disciplined team full of premiership players.

However the truth is that we ARE performing a lot worse than where we should be, DESPITE our injuries - so who, what, when and where is to blame ?

In my mind - and I've been saying this for a long, long time - its the the attitude of some of our middle order players. It has infected the rest of the team - there is a genuine lack of care.

 

[jonbe54]

It's not a who but a what that's holding Carlton back.

Since Elliott they have wallowed in the belief of self proclaimed right of superiority. Believing they can do as they please without consequences and then trying to buy and tank their way to the top. It's always the short fix or the ' buy it if ya can't beat it' mentality at Carlton. They refuse to do the hard yards in the belief that its below them to work as other clubs do to develop a list.

Long may the self delusion linger. . .

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I reckon theres a story brewing at Carlton. VFL coaches dont just quit midseason for no reason. Reckon theres a lot more policitics that have gone unreported.

I think that's rather pertinent.

Robert Hyde's sacking out at Cramer St has to be a symptom of the problem.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...cks-brett-ratten/story-e6frepf6-1226418303513

The Northern Blues coach parted ways with the club on June 28, citing time constraints in his job as a primary school principal.
Hyde said criticism of Ratten's tenure was unfair given the club's horrendous injury run, especially to their big men.
"He's still got the support of the players and he's still being positive with the group," Hyde said.

Hyde said he had enjoyed a healthy relationship with Ratten, but had underestimated the time required to fill the role as VFL coach. "There was absolutely no animosity between me and Ratten," he said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...cks-brett-ratten/story-e6frepf6-1226418303513

You see how the maths doesn't always add up?

 

[biggiemediums]

Recruitment is fine, they have some gun kids, the development is what seems to be off. Maybe it's more of a developmental problem? Not too sure.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...cks-brett-ratten/story-e6frepf6-1226418303513





http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...cks-brett-ratten/story-e6frepf6-1226418303513

You see how the maths doesn't always add up?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...cks-brett-ratten/story-e6frepf6-1226418303513





http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...cks-brett-ratten/story-e6frepf6-1226418303513

You see how the maths doesn't always add up?

So theres no politics I retract my comments.

Instead it was just good old fashioned incompetence by the Blues by not appointing the right person in the first place.

 

[the distributer]

Steve Kernahan or Brett Ratten?

I can forecast all week, we will hear Carlton supporters asking for Ratten's removal. However the question has to be asked, should the person be accountable for extending his contract?

Going to be a lot of intense speculation involving Ratten and Malthouse this week.

Injurys?, Blues best 22 is as good as most but their depth isn't IMO.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Some of Carltons biggest disappointments this season have been the uninjured senior players. You cant totally blame injuries when the fit and healthy players arent pulling their weight.

 

[the distributer]

Some of Carltons biggest disappointments this season have been the uninjured senior players. You cant totally blame injuries when the fit and healthy players arent pulling their weight.

You know they'll play out of their skins tonight though, the bloody pricks lol.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

It's not a who but a what that's holding Carlton back.

Since Elliott they have wallowed in the belief of self proclaimed right of superiority. Believing they can do as they please without consequences and then trying to buy and tank their way to the top. It's always the short fix or the ' buy it if ya can't beat it' mentality at Carlton. They refuse to do the hard yards in the belief that its below them to work as other clubs do to develop a list.

Long may the self delusion linger. . .

I usually hate this type of post - the kind that assigns a series of personality traits to an entire club based on a few actions by an individual - I'd like to look a bit closer.

"Buy it if ya can't beat it".

They bought Judd, true. There were 3 or 4 other clubs lining up to buy Judd as well. I wonder if we'd have thought the same about Melbourne, or Richmond, or Hawthorn if they had been successful in luring Judd? What made Carlton a 'smarter' buyer than those other clubs is that they already had two number 1 draft picks and refused to trade a third.

The Judd trade, especially with Fevola there, looked like a great move. He was going to lead Murphy and Gibbs to have (hopefully) the best midfield in the league.
Unfortunately - Judd's performance is becoming more inconsistent, and even though Murphy has come along to be a top flight player, and Carazzo is doing better than he ever has - the midfield is far from the best in the league. Losing Kennedy was all the more painful due to the Fevola departure. Not to mention that their other key forward Waite can't get enough consistency in his body to be a decent player.

Bringing in Robbie Warnock. This guy, with the help of Kreuzer, were supposed to become the most deadly ruck combo in the league. The problem is that Warnock isn't the phenomenon they had hoped, the midfield doesn't capitalise on his good ruck work when it happens and he offers literally nothing around the ground. That's compounded by Kreuzer doing his knee. How anyone expects him to be a world beater the season after an ACL is beyond me.

So that's it.
Carlton brought in the high profile players Judd and Warnock. Only one of those could be considered a huge outlay. Sure, every off season they're linked to Ryan O'Keefe, or Brendan Goddard, or Travis Cloke, etc - but I'd expect every club to take a close look at all these guys. Carlton just seem to get a lot of media play about it.

You could add the fact that they used a first round pick on Broc McLean, but that's hardly buying your way to success. Clearly they wanted another hard body around the packs as Murphy and Gibbs came of age.

As for refusing to do the hard yards - I don't think it gets much harder than dumping your only key forward with any sort of track record. Dumping Fev was a courageous decision, the opposite of what a short-term-fix club would do.

But now it's all fallen apart.
Injuries are a huge reason for this. Huge.
Laidler, Henderson and Waite not playing on the weekend. How the Moo are they supposed to set up their team? Not many clubs have depth of 3 KPP. Last year the hawks were missing Roughead and Gilham all year, and managed to patch it together, but not convincingly. Collingwood cope well, at times they've been without combinations of Reid, Tarrant, Dawes, etc.

It means they need to play a ruckman as a forward. At least having Waite in the team would mean they could drop a ruckman and already be a lot more effective at locking the ball in and creating scoring opportunities.

The backward progression of players like Garlett, Betts, Walker, Duigan (who I thought was great last year) Scotland and Yarran has been amazing. Duigan, Scotland and Yarran really made the backline solid and effective on the rebound, whereas Garlett Betts and Walker created match up headaches. Now these six are ineffectual most of the time. Opposition sides aren't worried about these guys. Why have they gone backwards? Increased scrutiny? Change of roles to cover other weaknesses in the side? Not sure, but when 1/3 of your side has regressed so far there's not much hope.

So injuries to key players and 1/3 of the side playing so much worse than last year - I hardly think it's the result of Buy it if you can't beat it.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Carlton invited a lot of pressure this year. Their marketing message has been cheeky (they know we're coming, can you smell what the blues are cooking), and in my view flat-out cocky for a side that hasn't had a top four finish. I think they've also welcomed the view that they are entirely focused on a top 4 finish this year. Now it looks unlikely the pressure is snowballing.

I hate Carlton as much as the next person, probably more so - but to accusing them of trying to buy their way out of recent messes is wrong.

 

[jonbe54]

I usually hate this type of post - the kind that assigns a series of personality traits to an entire club based on a few actions by an individual - I'd like to look a bit closer.

"Buy it if ya can't beat it".

They bought Judd, true. There were 3 or 4 other clubs lining up to buy Judd as well. I wonder if we'd have thought the same about Melbourne, or Richmond, or Hawthorn if they had been successful in luring Judd? What made Carlton a 'smarter' buyer than those other clubs is that they already had two number 1 draft picks and refused to trade a third.

The Judd trade, especially with Fevola there, looked like a great move. He was going to lead Murphy and Gibbs to have (hopefully) the best midfield in the league.
Unfortunately - Judd's performance is becoming more inconsistent, and even though Murphy has come along to be a top flight player, and Carazzo is doing better than he ever has - the midfield is far from the best in the league. Losing Kennedy was all the more painful due to the Fevola departure. Not to mention that their other key forward Waite can't get enough consistency in his body to be a decent player.

Bringing in Robbie Warnock. This guy, with the help of Kreuzer, were supposed to become the most deadly ruck combo in the league. The problem is that Warnock isn't the phenomenon they had hoped, the midfield doesn't capitalise on his good ruck work when it happens and he offers literally nothing around the ground. That's compounded by Kreuzer doing his knee. How anyone expects him to be a world beater the season after an ACL is beyond me.

So that's it.
Carlton brought in the high profile players Judd and Warnock. Only one of those could be considered a huge outlay. Sure, every off season they're linked to Ryan O'Keefe, or Brendan Goddard, or Travis Cloke, etc - but I'd expect every club to take a close look at all these guys. Carlton just seem to get a lot of media play about it.

You could add the fact that they used a first round pick on Broc McLean, but that's hardly buying your way to success. Clearly they wanted another hard body around the packs as Murphy and Gibbs came of age.

As for refusing to do the hard yards - I don't think it gets much harder than dumping your only key forward with any sort of track record. Dumping Fev was a courageous decision, the opposite of what a short-term-fix club would do.

But now it's all fallen apart.
Injuries are a huge reason for this. Huge.
Laidler, Henderson and Waite not playing on the weekend. How the Moo are they supposed to set up their team? Not many clubs have depth of 3 KPP. Last year the hawks were missing Roughead and Gilham all year, and managed to patch it together, but not convincingly. Collingwood cope well, at times they've been without combinations of Reid, Tarrant, Dawes, etc.

It means they need to play a ruckman as a forward. At least having Waite in the team would mean they could drop a ruckman and already be a lot more effective at locking the ball in and creating scoring opportunities.

The backward progression of players like Garlett, Betts, Walker, Duigan (who I thought was great last year) Scotland and Yarran has been amazing. Duigan, Scotland and Yarran really made the backline solid and effective on the rebound, whereas Garlett Betts and Walker created match up headaches. Now these six are ineffectual most of the time. Opposition sides aren't worried about these guys. Why have they gone backwards? Increased scrutiny? Change of roles to cover other weaknesses in the side? Not sure, but when 1/3 of your side has regressed so far there's not much hope.

So injuries to key players and 1/3 of the side playing so much worse than last year - I hardly think it's the result of Buy it if you can't beat it.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Carlton invited a lot of pressure this year. Their marketing message has been cheeky (they know we're coming, can you smell what the blues are cooking), and in my view flat-out cocky for a side that hasn't had a top four finish. I think they've also welcomed the view that they are entirely focused on a top 4 finish this year. Now it looks unlikely the pressure is snowballing.

I hate Carlton as much as the next person, probably more so - but to accusing them of trying to buy their way out of recent messes is wrong.

Who said recent? This has been going on for over a decade, they have spent much more time, effort and money trying to shortcut their way to a flag than if they had knuckled down at the start and tried to build a list.

What I hate is when people take the first literal interpretation they slap on a post as factual.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Who said recent? This has been going on for over a decade, they have spent much more time, effort and money trying to shortcut their way to a flag than if they had knuckled down at the start and tried to build a list.

What I hate is when people take the first literal interpretation they slap on a post as factual.

Well the Judd trade happened five years ago now, so I wasn't talking about things that are THAT recent - but sure, let's wind back another 5 or 10. What have Carlton done since 1997 (we'll use 15 years since we're talking more than a decade) that would really constitute "buying it because they can't beat it"?.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Who said recent? This has been going on for over a decade, they have spent much more time, effort and money trying to shortcut their way to a flag than if they had knuckled down at the start and tried to build a list.

What I hate is when people take the first literal interpretation they slap on a post as factual.

Well LP articulated his argument. How about you tell us why we have tried to buy it because we can't beat it, and then compare it to other clubs. A few trades here and there do not prove your argument. People get a perception in there mind and find it hard to shake, even if they haven't done their homework.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So theres no politics I retract my comments.

Instead it was just good old fashioned incompetence by the Blues by not appointing the right person in the first place.

Sheesh, like a dog with a bone. Hyde said it was his fault. He gave an undertaking as to the time he would spend and then found he was unable to give that time. Carlton acted in good faith and took him at his word.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Sheesh, like a dog with a bone. Hyde said it was his fault. He gave an undertaking as to the time he would spend and then found he was unable to give that time. Carlton acted in good faith and took him at his word.

A 57 year old grown man who didnt understand the time required to juggle two careers?

You dont find something odd in that? Carlton picked the wrong guy. Period.

They never should have picked a part timer and then expected the part timer to work full time. They are supposed to be a professional club.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

A 57 year old grown man who didnt understand the time required to juggle two careers?

You dont find something odd in that? Carlton picked the wrong guy. Period.

They never should have picked a part timer and then expected the part timer to work full time. They are supposed to be a professional club.

Again Timmy, how on earth do you presume to know how much time he offered to work and how much time they expected him to work. Your bias is causing you to make assumptions. Honestly, get over it. He said it was his issue, move on.