Banter Who will be better in 2024? Carlton or Collingwood? Part 2

[Worm4]

Who has been injured for collingwood anyway ? They've missed a banged up Mitchell ( old) pendles ( old) , cox ( old and pies board calling him useless) , mcstay ( best season has been something around 30 goals I think) , McCreery ( I rate him for pressure but his disposal sucks ) and Mihocheck ( solid contributor) , who else am I missing ?

 

[Fadge]

Carlton will be better than Collingwood in 2024.

That's this neutral's, sorry I mean BIASED person's opinion. Carlton remain the 2nd most likely team to win the flag. On that front I disagree with Fadge, but I'm sure he's not about to cry about having a difference of opinion.

How dare you, Mr Meow?

We can no longer be friends....

 

[CCurnow3votes]

You can't be so unintelligent to think that "they carried on as if it was the greatest injury list ever seen" meant I was referring to a quote that said "This is the greatest injury list ever seen"? Come on mate, you aren't that dense. Help me out here.

You’re exaggerating to make a point.

Nobody said “the greatest injury list ever seen”.

Just because players like Motlop, Martin, Cunningham are not in the team now, doesn’t mean they weren’t considered best 23 at the time by 99% of Carlton supporters.

Carlton had at the time 14 injuries & largely withstood them due to previously considered “fringe” players - Cowan & Cincotta for example came in and played there role brilliantly.

We’ve had the benefit of bringing players back through the 2’s to earn their place - when previously we haven’t.

That’s a massive step forward.

Our issue now is finding the right balance.

At the time our injury list was huge & we easily had 8 players ( at very least ) not including Silvagni or Doch missing.

 

[Mr Meow]

You’re exaggerating to make a point.

Nobody said “the greatest injury list ever seen”.

Just because players like Motlop, Martin, Cunningham are not in the team now, doesn’t mean they weren’t considered best 23 at the time by 99% of Carlton supporters.

Carlton had at the time 14 injuries & largely withstood them due to previously considered “fringe” players - Cowan & Cincotta for example came in and played there role brilliantly.

We’ve had the benefit of bringing players back through the 2’s to earn their place - when previously we haven’t.

That’s a massive step forward.

Our issue now is finding the right balance.

At the time our injury list was huge & we easily had 8 players ( at very least ) not including Silvagni or Doch missing.

Well the whole reason it was said that the injury list wasn't that bad is because most of the role players (besides 2 I can think of) in the side were performing well. Carlton's depth is and was strong. I know people at the time expressed doubt that Marchbank and Cunningham were walk up best 22.

Obviously Saad, Gov and Cerra would make a meaningful difference. Martin I'm not sure can be thought of as a real player with his injury issues (what's got him in the VFL now, form?).

Carlton have the best top 5 in the league and a very strong 5 or 6 after that. Then you get into role players who may or may not perform +/- 5% better than the ones who could replace them. So I maintain that for Carlton (it will vary with each club) on an injury front you just need those top 5 and then most in the tier below to be out there (Cerra/Saad/Gov is probably close to tipping point - throw Acres/Newman on there too and it's a big problem).

All OPINION. Certainly not meant to upset people. They are fine to disagree with their own points. But it's a lot easier to simply call someone a biased, hysterical, bitter troll I guess. That is WalshGOAT's MO.

 

[Mr Meow]

Maybe take a break El Purro!

You’re coughing up fur balls.

View attachment 2050727

At least you have a sense of humour unlike WalshistheGOAT

 

[Robertio]

Mate your only replies have been about how biased or triggered I am. And now a cry for moderation. You're the one that hasn't been discussing the points at hand, demanding quotes and then getting them - but still complaining and demanding I leave. All a farcical performance because you don't like the comments I have made about Carlton cry babies - while you have preceded to be the biggest cry baby of the lot.

"even with all the injuries we've had" - so you're doubling down on that, when in actuality the "best 11" you were missing was a "best 4 or 5" that excluded your best 5 players.

Best 22 not best 4 or 5, you've been repeatedly told that but you're ignoring it.

 

[Mr Meow]

Best 22 not best 4 or 5, you've been repeatedly told that but you're ignoring it.

And you had 4 or 5 certifiably best 22 players missing back then, that would be available later in the season. 5 of the ones that were listed are playing in the magoos.

Within a best 22, missing your top 5 is different to missing 3 in your upper middle tier and 1 in the lower middle tier. Do you disagree with that?

 

[Robertio]

And you had 4 or 5 certifiably best 22 players missing back then, that would be available later in the season. 5 of the ones that were listed are playing in the magoos.

Within a best 22, missing your top 5 is different to missing 3 in your upper middle tier and 1 in the lower middle tier. Do you disagree with that?

Not really it's like saying my car engine is fine so I'll go for a drive even though i haven't got a gearbox.

 

[Mr Meow]

Not really it's like saying my car engine is fine so I'll go for a drive even though i haven't got a gearbox.

So to be clear, Carlton are playing in a grand final tomorrow hypothetical. You have two choices:

-Curnow, McKay, Cripps, Walsh and Weitering are injured/missing

-Fogarty, O.Hollands, Cincotta, Cowan, Williams are injured/missing

You'd simply say "Toss the coin. They're all best 22 anyway"?

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Well the whole reason it was said that the injury list wasn't that bad is because most of the role players (besides 2 I can think of) in the side were performing well. Carlton's depth is and was strong. I know people at the time expressed doubt that Marchbank and Cunningham were walk up best 22.

Obviously Saad, Gov and Cerra would make a meaningful difference. Martin I'm not sure can be thought of as a real player with his injury issues (what's got him in the VFL now, form?).

Carlton have the best top 5 in the league and a very strong 5 or 6 after that. Then you get into role players who may or may not perform +/- 5% better than the ones who could replace them. So I maintain that for Carlton (it will vary with each club) on an injury front you just need those top 5 and then most in the tier below to be out there (Cerra/Saad/Gov is probably close to tipping point - throw Acres/Newman on there too and it's a big problem).

All OPINION. Certainly not meant to upset people. They are fine to disagree with their own points. But it's a lot easier to simply call someone a biased, hysterical, bitter troll I guess. That is WalshGOAT's MO.

Martin is one game back - he's had a horrible year with injury compared to last.

LY he was a big reason why we made finals and won a couple. IMHO he's a very important (pre-Williams) foil to Harry & Charlie, brings others into the game, is very hard at it & clever with his ball use - he will come into this team and play a significant part again... I hope.

Fogerty has been a very important "role player" who, when missing from the team, was noticeably missing. He simply makes our forward pressure (as the league's number 1 forward pressure player at one point), effective.

Role players seem to much underestimated in this conversation - not sure why?

What premiership team doesn't have them?

What is Collingwood if not 6-8 elite players & the balance "role players"?

What we should be considering is not are they a champion or not - rather what value is added/missing?

 

[Mr Meow]

Says the poster who's been ranting all afternoon because he was questioned

*replying to rants

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Not really it's like saying my car engine is fine so I'll go for a drive even though i haven't got a gearbox.

Exactly - why is this so hard to understand?

 

[CCurnow3votes]

At least you have a sense of humour unlike WalshistheGOAT

WITG is on the front lines, just like you soldier

 

[Arr0w]

I'm not sure we can convince every poster on here to vote in a poll.

Who said anything about convincing anyone about anything

By "true neutral supporters" - yes just ask anyone that has ever known me, the one thing I despise is Carlton.

You don't say

And I adore Collingwood. More than my own team. Yep it all makes perfect sense.

Makes sense to me too

Every supporter base has referenced injury lists before and even leaned into using them as cop outs. Some more vigorously, unjustifiably and more predominantly on the Main Board (rather than their club's forum) than others.

Does it matter where it's posted?

Carlton supporters have been the most boisterous and dependent on their whining about that topic - or really any topic that they see as giving them a disadvantage.

Again, in your opinion

The exaggerations and deflections, I have pointed out and boy have I received a lot of vitriol for daring to do so.

Perhaps because you are only focused on one supporter group

Anything I state about your team or its supporters is merely MY OPINION, yes (do I need to start adding this to the end of every statement? I would've thought it's self explanatory and assumed).

You do what you like, but your opinion is certainly slanted in one direction and not consistent across all supporter groups

 

[Arr0w]

How have you determined the 'consensus of true neutral supporters' in relation to their thoughts on the impact of Carlton's injuries compared to Collingwood's this season?

Maybe start another thread fadge

 

[Robertio]

So to be clear, Carlton are playing in a grand final tomorrow hypothetical. You have two choices:

-Curnow, McKay, Cripps, Walsh and Weitering are injured/missing

-Fogarty, O.Hollands, Cincotta, Cowan, Williams are injured/missing

You'd simply say "Toss the coin. They're all best 22 anyway"?

Fantasy question mate, you need your star players but the rest of the players in the side are still best 22 and all part of the engine.

 

[Mr Meow]

Martin is one game back - he's had a horrible year with injury compared to last.

LY he was a big reason why we made finals and won a couple. IMHO he's a very important (pre-Williams) foil to Harry & Charlie) brings others into the game, is very hard at it & clever with his ball use - he will come into this team and play a significant part again... I hope.

Fogerty has been a very important "role player" who, when missing from the team, was noticeably missing. He simply makes our forward pressure (as the league's number 1 forward pressure player at one point), effective.

Role players seem to much underestimated in this conversation - not sure why?

What premiership team doesn't have them?

What is Collingwood if not 6-8 elite players & the balance "role players"?

What we should be considering is not are they a champion or not - rather what value is added/missing?

Can I firstly just commend you on setting an example in merely discussing with and disagreeing with points in an amicable way? And elaborating with your own reasoning? It's amazing how this is beyond so many of your contemporaries, who would rather descend to s**t flinging and demands to leave.

I do agree that Martin was good last year, but maybe his pile up of injuries is breaking him down. I hope not, but it has happened to some of our (admittedly older) players in recent years. And that concern goes double for Docherty, despite being a jet, a 3rd ACL while being in your 30s is not a great recipe for returning to elite performance.

And yeah I was always happy to acknowledge Fog in those discussions. Maybe not a Cerra/Saad level omission, but one that moves the needle more than say Motlop for Owies IMO.

Role players are important but Carlton have a bigger collection of stars than most, I'd say. Or ones giving near or at AA performances week in, week out over a number of years. The B tier below them are also underrated. So I just don't think when it gets stretched out to "Just wait until JSOS and Motlop replace Owies and Fantasia" it means a HUGE amount. Of course it counts a bit.

Carlton thrashed Geelong in the rematch not because they had 4 players back, it was simply a case of their midfield getting reward for effort and everyone else played better with less mistakes, and they were much more clinical. To some degree Gov/Saad helped that but there was a lot more nuance than personnel that explained the difference in those two matches.

 

[Robertio]

Exactly - why is this so hard to understand?

It was the simplest way i could explain it to him.

 

[Robertio]

Can I firstly just commend you on setting an example in merely discussing with and disagreeing with points in an amicable way? And elaborating with your own reasoning? It's amazing how this is beyond so many of your contemporaries, who would rather descend to s**t flinging and demands to leave.

I do agree that Martin was good last year, but maybe his pile up of injuries is breaking him down. I hope not, but it has happened to some of our (admittedly older) players in recent years. And that concern goes double for Docherty, despite being a jet, a 3rd ACL while being in your 30s is not a great recipe for returning to elite performance.

And yeah I was always happy to acknowledge Fog in those discussions. Maybe not a Cerra/Saad level omission, but one that moves the needle more than say Motlop for Owies IMO.

Role players are important but Carlton have a bigger collection of stars than most, I'd say. Or ones giving near or at AA performances week in, week out over a number of years. The B tier below them are also underrated. So I just don't think when it gets stretched out to "Just wait until JSOS and Motlop replace Owies and Fantasia" it means a HUGE amount. Of course it counts a bit.

Carlton thrashed Geelong in the rematch not because they had 4 players back, it was simply a case of their midfield getting reward for effort and everyone else played better with less mistakes, and they were much more clinical. To some degree Gov/Saad helped that but there was a lot more nuance than personnel that explained the difference in those two matches.

All your opinion off course.

 

[Juddernaut08]

So to be clear, Carlton are playing in a grand final tomorrow hypothetical. You have two choices:

-Curnow, McKay, Cripps, Walsh and Weitering are injured/missing

-Fogarty, O.Hollands, Cincotta, Cowan, Williams are injured/missing

You'd simply say "Toss the coin. They're all best 22 anyway"?

Weitering and Walsh have both missed games. Curnow has been playing injured all year.

End of the day, both teams have suffered many injuries to key players. Both did fairly well to cope with it until the dam wall burst for the Pies.

Yet, they're still only 1.5 wins from Top 4 so still season is very much alive, particularly when McStay could return soon.

 

[Arr0w]

Mr Meow only one topic to discuss

Who will be better in 2024? Carlton or Collingwood?

 

[Mr Meow]

All your opinion off course.

On or off course, everything expressed here is an opinion.

It's baffling that we are stuck with the basics like this after all this time.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Can I firstly just commend you on setting an example in merely discussing with and disagreeing with points in an amicable way? And elaborating with your own reasoning? It's amazing how this is beyond so many of your contemporaries, who would rather descend to s**t flinging and demands to leave.

I do agree that Martin was good last year, but maybe his pile up of injuries is breaking him down. I hope not, but it has happened to some of our (admittedly older) players in recent years. And that concern goes double for Docherty, despite being a jet, a 3rd ACL while being in your 30s is not a great recipe for returning to elite performance.

And yeah I was always happy to acknowledge Fog in those discussions. Maybe not a Cerra/Saad level omission, but one that moves the needle more than say Motlop for Owies IMO.

Role players are important but Carlton have a bigger collection of stars than most, I'd say. Or ones giving near or at AA performances week in, week out over a number of years. The B tier below them are also underrated. So I just don't think when it gets stretched out to "Just wait until JSOS and Motlop replace Owies and Fantasia" it means a HUGE amount. Of course it counts a bit.

Carlton thrashed Geelong in the rematch not because they had 4 players back, it was simply a case of their midfield getting reward for effort and everyone else played better with less mistakes, and they were much more clinical. To some degree Gov/Saad helped that but there was a lot more nuance than personnel that explained the difference in those two matches.

I don't think breaking teams down into parts is helpful.

Its the sum of all parts, be they "stars" or "role players" that get it done.

The Blues have lost the last 2 against teams we should have beaten, without many "stars" missing - why?

Because our team balance is NQR - our role players are more important than anyone (assuming stars are on the field) as they lift us to a team that could be premiers - rather than a good team stacked with stars that loses a prelim.

 

[JustaBattler]

Mate I posted in here pleeeeenty of times before that result, because the Carlton supporter whinging was actually its most intense not long after round 7 (remember that one?).

I remember the loss to Geelong and teh 'conversation' we had regarding what would happen when the teams met again - I think my prediction was more accurate - for the reasons I posted - which included referencing a few important players out injured for Carlton. On that day Geelong (IMO) were the better team.


And now that there's finally been a couple of losses, the whinging has returned - this time not around injuries, but about biased posters picking on your supporters and their club.

I think that Fudgey pulls sympathy posts from people at times - however you are a notable sympathy poster with as has been pointed out a tendency to use hyperbole and generalisations - I don't care because I laugh at both of you - one a dirty birder and the other a naughty pussy.

The hyperbolic function spiel was actually an entertaining read - perhaps try coaching Robertio, whose ripostes have been about as witty as a dried apricot.

I'm picturing Fudgey looking up Hyperbolic function, maxima and minimu up and seeing if his abacus has the hyperbolic bead function or not - otherwise time for an upgrade - yes I m a very funny bloke - who happens to understand numbers

Carlton will be better than Collingwood in 2024.

I'm not sure about that -yet. I'll let Fudgey and you know when I am - but that is when there will be no bookie odds available - even for Faith and her sister Hope.

That's this neutral's, sorry I mean BIASED person's opinion. Carlton remain the 2nd most likely team to win the flag. On that front I disagree with Fadge, but I'm sure he's not about to cry about having a difference of opinion.

IF Carlton had last year's finals team fit and on the park - I would be sure - but best 22 is a fragile thing - too many good sides too good at exploiting weaknesses to be certain about anything - 2 games separating something out of the current top8 and 2nd is a neat summary.

 

[Fadge]

Maybe start another thread fadge

Oh, so not willing to provide any substance for your comment?

After all, you're the poster who made the assertion.