Banter Who will be Better in 2025, Collingwood or Carlton? Part 4

[Mr Meow]

No Tigers supporters online?

I'm staying because you just requested I stay.

 

[Arr0w]

I was actually considering giving you guys a break. If I am indeed in good company, of course I'm happy to stay.

Thanks for showing kindness. We've finally got a welcoming Blue in here.

Don't mistaken that for an invitation

 

[Arr0w]

I'm staying because you just requested I stay.

So if I ask you to leave you will do so?

 

[Mr Meow]

I spoke about Acres' aerial ability being something Sidebottom can't replicate as the reason why the drop off would be significant because Carlton relies on it at a lot. The statistics you provided were defensive rebounds and tackles which had nothing to do with what I see as the major difference between the two players.

On the rankings, looking at just players that spend the majority of time on the wing is my choice. You don't have to follow it. Interesting to see other people in the media (https://archive.sen.com.au/news/202...-names-his-top-afl-wingers-of-2023/index.html) who have been asked the same question decided to also not include the likes of McLuggage etc in their rankings as they don't play the majority of their football in that position.

You actually used aerial ability and defensive running as your preference for Acres over McLuggage, Holmes, J.Kelly and Massimo as wingmen as well. Yes you said even if they didn't have multi positional capacity, their play on the wing was not above Acres. All of them are outside players who dominate between the arcs, often on the wing. Much more damaging players than Acres, recognised by the coaches.

It is invalid to exclude them from wingman discussions. See that word again?

 

[Mr Meow]

So if I ask you to leave you will do so?

You've already made your request. I won't be answering further ones.

 

[Mr Meow]

Don't mistaken that for an invitation

I took "I hope you hang around now" in its most sincere form. You don't strike me as someone who would be disingenuous.

 

[carlton_99]

You actually used aerial ability and defensive running as your preference for Acres over McLuggage, Holmes, J.Kelly and Massimo as wingmen as well. All of whom are outside players who dominate between the arcs, often on the wing. Much more damaging players than Acres, recognised by the coaches.

It is invalid to exclude them from wingman discussions. See that word again?

My criteria (see emphasis on 'my') which I noted was that I was only ranking wingman who played their majority of their time in that position. So it is not invalid to exclude them it's simply my ranking and I can rank who I want to rank. If you want to do your own ranking including players that don't play majority wing but still play some wing then that's fine. But they are two different things.

 

[Mr Meow]

On the rankings, looking at just players that spend the majority of time on the wing is my choice. You don't have to follow it. Interesting to see other people in the media (https://archive.sen.com.au/news/202...-names-his-top-afl-wingers-of-2023/index.html) who have been asked the same question decided to also not include the likes of McLuggage etc in their rankings as they don't play the majority of their football in that position.

How is time on the wing calculated? Total stoppage attendances? CBA is only a tiny snapshot. Most players, especially outside players, rotate consistently.

If you are reducing the pool that much so as to exclude players who are recognised as being excellent on the wing but rotate elsewhere, you are making it a low quantity and quality pool of players. Then it becomes a matter of rating the 7 tallest dwarves.

 

[Mr Meow]

My criteria (see emphasis on 'my') which I noted was that I was only ranking wingman who played their majority of their time in that position. So it is not invalid to exclude them it's simply my ranking and I can rank who I want to rank. If you want to do your own ranking including players that don't play majority wing but still play some wing then that's fine. But they are two different things.

In your criteria, how exactly are they deciding what % of time is spent on the wing? Each player I named quite obviously collects most of their ball between the arcs as link up players (as opposed to a Cripps or Libba type stoppage bull). They are big territory players and/or excellent distributors who run hard both ways. Each player I named fits the bill. This is not like an AA team naming Merrett or Butters on a wing. These are players who genuinely spend big minutes in that exact area, in that exact role.

 

[carlton_99]

How is time on the wing calculated? Total stoppage attendances? CBA is only a tiny snapshot. Most players, especially outside players, rotate consistently.

If you are reducing the pool that much so as to exclude players who are recognised as being excellent on the wing but rotate elsewhere, you are making it a low quantity and quality pool of players. Then it becomes a matter of rating the 7 tallest dwarves.

CBA% is probably the best stat I can think of but as you say it isn't perfect. Other than that you really just have to watch the games I guess and see how coaches are using different players.

 

[Mr Meow]

My criteria (see emphasis on 'my') which I noted was that I was only ranking wingman who played their majority of their time in that position. So it is not invalid to exclude them it's simply my ranking and I can rank who I want to rank. If you want to do your own ranking including players that don't play majority wing but still play some wing then that's fine. But they are two different things.

Let's see your top 20 wingmen in order, then. Or can you not even name that many based on your strict criteria?

 

[Arr0w]

My criteria (see emphasis on 'my') which I noted was that I was only ranking wingman who played their majority of their time in that position. So it is not invalid to exclude them it's simply my ranking and I can rank who I want to rank. If you want to do your own ranking including players that don't play majority wing but still play some wing then that's fine. But they are two different things.

I think the Pies might be able to get North of the border at some point, next year

What are you thoughts?

 

[Mr Meow]

CBA% is probably the best stat I can think of but as you say it isn't perfect. Other than that you really just have to watch the games I guess and see how coaches are using different players.

CBA% is a terribly flawed metric. Next to useless. How many of the games stoppages are not a centrebounce? How many players move after the centrebounce, or indeed for each new centrebounce? Many.

Geelong even had a ruckman attend CBAs but very few other stoppages in their premiership year (he floated back to help defence).

It makes much more sense to base it on attributes, heat maps and roles.

But if you are admitting you are just making it an incredibly narrow and low quality/quantity pool, fair enough.

 

[Arr0w]

I'm the same. Fudge, Corn, Pistol and Scritch all stick to their guns and keep things humerous at least... Old mate Karenbagger is just painful.

Must be that whole unbiased thingie

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

A woeful pile on.

How dare a poster challenge a Carlton opinion.

Actually typed in 'Piss off' to the search bar when that came up. So I guess we'll never know for sure

 

[carlton_99]

CBA% is a terribly flawed metric. Next to useless. How many of the games stoppages are not a centrebounce? How many players move after the centrebounce, or indeed for each new centrebounce? Many.

Geelong even had a ruckman attend CBAs but very few other stoppages in their premiership year (he floated back to help defence).

It makes much more sense to base it on attributes, heat maps and roles.

But if you are admitting you are just making it an incredibly narrow and low quality/quantity pool, fair enough.

I never said CBA% is a great stat I said it's the best stat I can think of that would do it. Like I said I would just watch the games and base it off that. Anyway it really wasn't meant to be this serious ranking that caused all this uproar. I value Acres very highly for what he does for Carlton and I think there are only a couple of players that have outperformed him in that specific wing role. I think everyone has had enough of me presenting my love for Blake Acres' defensive work so I'll leave it there.

 

[Arr0w]

I never said CBA% is a great stat I said it's the best stat I can think of that would do it. Like I said I would just watch the games and base it off that. Anyway it really wasn't meant to be this serious ranking that caused all this uproar. I value Acres very highly for what he does for Carlton and I think there are only a couple of players that have outperformed him in that specific wing role. I think everyone has had enough of me presenting my love for Blake Acres' defensive work so I'll leave it there.

I'd pick Acres over Sidebottom going into 2025

 

[Mr Meow]

CBA% is probably the best stat I can think of but as you say it isn't perfect. Other than that you really just have to watch the games I guess and see how coaches are using different players.

Even if you do use the flawed metric, how is Josh Kelly excluded based on 38% CBA in 2024? Holmes was 28.5% in 2023 when he spent no time at half back, all that happened is he added half back to his wing play the next season. McCluggage is like 51% over the past two seasons. All dominating uncontested possessions.

 

[Arr0w]

So in a combined Pies, Carlton, we have players from other teams?

Think that's called AA

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

So if I ask you to leave you will do so?

Unfortunately doesn't work like that Arr0w, trust me I've asked plenty of times. Im pretty sure Chief has even told him to feck off Carlton related threads because he causes mass thread derailings every time he joins in one and everyone just ends up telling him to bugger off. Not sure whether thats true or not though.

 

[Mr Meow]

I never said CBA% is a great stat I said it's the best stat I can think of that would do it. Like I said I would just watch the games and base it off that. Anyway it really wasn't meant to be this serious ranking that caused all this uproar. I value Acres very highly for what he does for Carlton and I think there are only a couple of players that have outperformed him in that specific wing role. I think everyone has had enough of me presenting my love for Blake Acres' defensive work so I'll leave it there.

Well based on not knowing Sidebottom has tracked back as much as Acres the past 2 seasons, I'm not sure how many games you do watch. You said Holmes moved to half back in 2023 for example. In 2024 he dominated games on the wing as well, getting coaches votes easily more times than any other outside player. Kelly was at not at CB stoppages the majority of the time over the past two seasons. McLuggage is right at the threshold but it is just a nonsense opinion to say Acres has been a better wingman than him.

Anyway we can move on. Just don't cry about me saying your opinions have lacked validity, when I have presented cases for the flaws in your arguments.

 

[Mr Meow]

Unfortunately doesn't work like that Arr0w, trust me I've asked plenty of times. Im pretty sure Chief has even told him to feck off Carlton related threads because he causes mass thread derailings every time he joins in one and everyone just ends up telling him to piss off. Not sure whether thats true or not though.

Stop whinging. I know it must be incredibly difficult but it really is possible. Whinging is what brought the criticism in the first place and you double down every single time.

 

[Mr Meow]

Unfortunately doesn't work like that Arr0w, trust me I've asked plenty of times. Im pretty sure Chief has even told him to feck off Carlton related threads because he causes mass thread derailings every time he joins in one and everyone just ends up telling him to bugger off. Not sure whether thats true or not though.

It's not thread derailing when I am discussing valid football arguments - see the last couple of pages for more examples. I haven't seen you discussing football at all, instead simply sniping and taking pot shots.

 

[Arr0w]

Unfortunately doesn't work like that Arr0w, trust me I've asked plenty of times. Im pretty sure Chief has even told him to feck off Carlton related threads because he causes mass thread derailings every time he joins in one and everyone just ends up telling him to bugger off. Not sure whether thats true or not though.

Easiest way would be to ignore it, bound to get the hint then, surely

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Stop whinging. I know it must be incredibly difficult but it really is possible. Whinging is what brought the criticism in the first place and you double down every single time.

Yeah nah, what actually started it was you mistaking me for another poster in a gameday thread where I said injuries weren't the reason we lost... Then you went on an epic 3 month meltdown telling me I was whinging about injuries in every thread on the website.

I just never told you it was a case of mistaken identity because I found ur melts amusing for the first couple of weeks.

So the whinging will continue until you are once again told to feck off Carlton related threads.