Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder:

This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread.

Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thanks.

 

[mcnulty]

Find me some examples then.

Lol. You’ve been provided with heaps. Your argument is that although they were married and allowed to have sex, they didn’t have sex. Is that what it boils down to?

 

[Roylion]

And again from a historical perspective it’s only relatively recent. Up until the late 19th century the age of consent was still 12, and even younger in some Christian jurisdictions.

A 1576 English law stated the age of consent was 10 years old.

I guess the two main points I am making is that:

a. the 'Virgin' Mary could have been been pregnant at age 12-14, as marriage at the age was reasonably common in the place and time she lived. That's not to say she was necessarily.

b. Morality is subjective and has changed throughout time and between societies in a number of areas.

 

[Jazny]

Lol. You’ve been provided with heaps. Your argument is that although they were married and allowed to have sex, they didn’t have sex. Is that what it boils down to?

I have been provided with literally zero. The closest was Henry 7th I think whose wife gave birth at 13. He was like 26. Obviously bad, but 1 example out of 1000 year history of royalty that doesn't really come close to how bad Aisha and Muhammad age diff was doesnt show it was common.

 

[mcnulty]

I have been provided with literally zero. The closest was Henry 7th I think whose wife gave birth at 13. He was like 26. Obviously bad, but 1 example out of 1000 year history of royalty that doesn't really come close to how bad Aisha and Muhammad age diff was doesnt show it was common.

So no one’s had sex unless they got pregnant? Lol.

Again, why was the the age of consent 12 (and younger) according to Canon Law. They thought no one was going to it anyway?

 

[mcnulty]

A 1576 English law stated the age of consent was 10 years old.

I guess the two main points I am making is that:

a. the 'Virgin' Mary could have been been pregnant at age 12-14, as marriage was reasonably common in the place and time she lived. That's not to say she was necessarily.

b. Morality is subjective and has changed throughout time and between societies in a number of areas.

Quite. Poor old Jazny seems to be arguing they wouldn’t have done it anyway. Coz

 

[Jazny]

So no one’s had sex unless they got pregnant? Lol.

Again, why was the the age of consent 12 (and younger) according to Canon Law. They thought no one was going to it anyway?

You seem weirdly committed to this idea that our ancestors were all pedophiles..

1. Why would they want to do it? I know there are disgusting people in the world, but are they really that common?
2. There is no record of pregnant royals before the age of 13 in 1000+ years of EUROPEAN history that I can find.
3. It was explicitly not the custom to consummate the wedding with children! The custom was to wait until they came of age, which is still young by our standards, but definitely not 9.
4. The most common age of birth according to a Roman physician who studies this stuff at the time was 15+, not 14+ or 13+ or 12+ or 11+ or 10+ or 9+

I am sorry, but this just wasn't as common as you think.

 

[JackOutback]

You seem weirdly committed to this idea that our ancestors were all pedophiles..

1. Why would they want to do it? I know there are disgusting people in the world, but are they really that common?
2. There is no record of pregnant royals before the age of 13 in 1000+ years of EUROPEAN history that I can find.
3. It was explicitly not the custom to consummate the wedding with children! The custom was to wait until they came of age, which is still young by our standards, but definitely not 9.
4. The most common age of birth according to a Roman physician who studies this stuff at the time was 15+, not 14+ or 13+ or 12+ or 11+ or 10+ or 9+

I am sorry, but this just wasn't as common as you think.

By our standards, they were. It doesn't matter whether you think they consumated it at 9, 12 or 15, that's a paedophile by modern standards.

 

[mcnulty]

1. Why would they want to do it? I know there are disgusting people in the world, but are they really that common?

Umm I don’t know. The Law said it was ok. Their church said it was ok.

Are you arguing they had some sort of intrinsic morality holding them back?

 

[Malifice]

I think we need to take a step back because we are slightly arguing past each other maybe, because I have been arguing with different people who have had vastly different views to you, and I mostly agree with your views.

You seem to not even want to defend the morality of what Muhamad allegedly did. So on that we agree. I think we both agree that it doesn't matter if it was a common practice in his time and place, it is still obviously bad and we can judge him negatively for it. Right? I have been arguing against people who disagree with us on this.

We do disagree how common the consummation of marriages so young were. But honestly if we both agree that any such relation is bad regardless of how common, then this whole point is mute anyway. We agree that almost all customs prior to our better modern standards were not good, although I believe some were certainly worse than others.

Of course im not defending the morality of it, and literally noone else is either.

In Mo's time, slavery, torture, thr death penalty, human sacrifice and child marriage were all common. All those things are repeatedly mentioned in the Bible, Quran and Torah and also in accepted historical documents.

Does that mean I (or anyone else) thinks they're moral or good? Shit no.

George Washington owned slaves as did many of the men who drafted the famous clause 'all men are created equal' in the Declaration of Independence.

Its a product of the time they lived in. Doesn't make it moral or correct though.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

A lot of “marriages” were actually betrothals, where the young girl was promised to a suitable future husband but the actual marriage was then deferred to when the girl was deemed to be ready, possibly several years later.

 

[Jazny]

Of course im not defending the morality of it, and literally noone else is either.

If we all have come to that conclusion that there is no defending what Muhammad allegedly did, it is immoral, then I am happy and I can just leave the topic alone. Again, I truly do not want this story to be true. I have seen enough fake theology like people trying to claim Jesus had an underage wife based on nothing not to just believe stories people tell about religious figures without actually studying the texts. I have definitely not studied the Quran and doubt most people in this thread have either.

I don't really like people believing this kind of thing was more common than it was either. There are good reasons why that behaviour is immoral, not just "cultural" ones that are relative and changeable.

 

[sr36]

If we all have come to that conclusion that there is no defending what Muhammad allegedlydid, it is immoral, then I am happy and I can just leave the topic alone. Again, I truly do not want this story to be true. I have seen enough fake theology like people trying to claim Jesus had an underage wife based on nothing not to just believe stories people tell about religious figures without actually studying the texts. I have definitely not studied the Quran and doubt most people in this thread have either.

I don't really like people believing this kind of thing was more common than it was either. There are good reasons why that behaviour is immoral, not just "cultural" ones that are relative and changeable.

You don't do words like "probably" do you?

 

[Malifice]

If we all have come to that conclusion that there is no defending what Muhammad allegedly did, it is immoral, then I am happy and I can just leave the topic alone. Again, I truly do not want this story to be true. I have seen enough fake theology like people trying to claim Jesus had an underage wife based on nothing not to just believe stories people tell about religious figures without actually studying the texts. I have definitely not studied the Quran and doubt most people in this thread have either.

I don't really like people believing this kind of thing was more common than it was either. There are good reasons why that behaviour is immoral, not just "cultural" ones that are relative and changeable.

Dude noone is arguing it was moral.

People are just explaining to you it was common.

Mary (JCs mum) was likely early teens herself. Jewish women were usually married by 15 (and after 12 and a half) so she was likely 12-15 years old.

Joseph would have been around 20 or so.

 

[faible]

If we all have come to that conclusion that there is no defending what Muhammad allegedly did, it is immoral, then I am happy and I can just leave the topic alone. Again, I truly do not want this story to be true. I have seen enough fake theology like people trying to claim Jesus had an underage wife based on nothing not to just believe stories people tell about religious figures without actually studying the texts. I have definitely not studied the Quran and doubt most people in this thread have either.

I don't really like people believing this kind of thing was more common than it was either. There are good reasons why that behaviour is immoral, not just "cultural" ones that are relative and changeable.

I mean... this is literally the Bible you've described.

The actual Jesus though, would likely have been rather different to the mythical figure in the bible.

 

[Roylion]

I have seen enough fake theology like people trying to claim Jesus had an underage wife

But we're not arguing theology. We discussing historicity. They aren't always compatible.

 

[demondavey]

So it’s not raining out there, should I blame Muslims for that?

 

[demondavey]

There were about 3000 people killed in 9/11.

In 2021 43% of gun related deaths were homicides. 20,958.

I blame Muslims though for their culture and that damned Koran.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

By our standards, they were. It doesn't matter whether you think they consumated it at 9, 12 or 15, that's a paedophile by modern standards.

Its illegal by modern standards.
Anyone as old as me probably remembers a pr0n star called Traci Lords. ( Big scandal , she was in the news and went on to make some mainstream movies.). Essentially most of her films are illegal because she faked her age and made them at the age of 16.
She was not undeveloped, but she was too young for her own good to be subject to that, and i think that's where the laws come into play. Kids that age don't always make good decisions.
Those who watched her movies believing her to be old enough didn't suddenly become paedophiles when the truth came out.

I don't know about everyone else, but i sure as hell had my hormones kicking in well before i turned 18.
Pretty sure that doesn't make me a paedophile.

Where it gets creepy is when some of these societies have their arranged marriages between middle aged men and girls of those ages.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Where it gets creepy is when some of these societies have their arranged marriages between middle aged men and girls of those ages.

Happens around the world, even today.

 

[ferball]

I appreciate your post but won't respond to it all because it makes the same general point, that different cultures have different moral beliefs. I agree, but I think we can judge which cultures have better moral standards. I think even you would agree with this... for example:

Is slavery bad to you? Do you condemn slavery? If you condemn it, are you right in condemning it? Or are you only condemning it for arbitrary cultural reasons? In Tasmania, many of us want to rename the Batman bridge because he was an awful human being we shouldn't be celebrating, he murdered aboriginals. Obviously most people thought differently in his time. Do you agree or do you think we are just being ahistorical and irrational?

When I was a kid I thought that bridge was named after the other Batman.

 

[mcnulty]

Happens around the world, even today.

Nevertheless, I don’t think it’s Islamophobic for Australians to be outraged by this sort of thing.

Stabbing victim who dated man of different faith had at least '2,500 texts and calls' from family before attack - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

 

[demondavey]

Nevertheless, I don’t think it’s Islamophobic for Australians to be outraged by this sort of thing.

Stabbing victim who dated man of different faith had at least '2,500 texts and calls' from family before attack - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

But do we blame Islam for that?

 

[mcnulty]

But do we blame Islam for that?

No but it displays a level of religious fanaticism we simply don’t see here in Australia from other faiths, or the faithless. Unless there are instances of fathers attempting to butcher their own daughters because of interfaith relationships that I’m not aware of. Maybe some Hindu?

 

[ferball]

No but it displays a level of religious fanaticism we simply don’t see here in Australia from other faiths, or the faithless. Unless there are instances of fathers attempting to butcher their own daughters because of interfaith relationships that I’m not aware of. Maybe some Hindu?

This isn't necessarily true.

i can think of examples of other faiths and even faithless people acting in similar ways but I dunno if I want to cite them cos some involved me or people I knew. In my situation the father was an orthodox Christian.

I think the common denominator is controlling men who are jerks and think they're entitled to do what they want.

 

[demondavey]

No but it displays a level of religious fanaticism we simply don’t see here in Australia from other faiths, or the faithless. Unless there are instances of fathers attempting to butcher their own daughters because of interfaith relationships that I’m not aware of. Maybe some Hindu?

It’s at the extreme end. For sure. It’s a problem. But I don’t think we see extreme behaviour that’s isolated to religion in all instances. It’s not something we see or have reported very often, or often at all to be honest. The religion can be pretty misogynistic and patriarchal, but this is very extreme.

Prosecutions in order.