Will Clarkson add a 5th Premiership by the end of 2022 ?

[Pessimistic]

Last season we could at least piont to the fact we had one of the most miserly defences. A bit of a shock but re now have to worst points against

 

[Glenhope]

There's a higher chance of the AFL shrinking back to a Victoria only comp than Hawthorn winning another premiership ever.

 

[tommyk72]

“It’s never as good or as bad as it seems”.

We’ve been ordinary the last 3 weeks, but a week is a long time in footy and you can find form as quickly as you can lose it.

Winning three in a row sure seemed pretty good.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

“It’s never as good or as bad as it seems”.

We’ve been ordinary the last 3 weeks, but a week is a long time in footy and you can find form as quickly as you can lose it.

I agree we aren't as bad as the last 3 weeks, but over a few season sample size it's also clear as day we aren't on the cusp of being a contender either.

 

[Help My Club]

Hey Gents

If I may intrude. It's time you Hawkers shared the love and let Clarko go, to Collingwood please.

 

[Help My Club]

Sorry Gents and Ladies

 

[Milkshaker]

How beautful was that Round 1 dismantling of Brisbane. I had my hopes up.

 

[spudmaster]

Looking for a 5th win by the end of 2022 firstly!

 

[Help My Club]

As a long standing Collingwood supporter, I am truly envious of Hawthorn's record, not only recently but over the last 50 odd years. Your flag count is outrageous. And it makes me wonder why.There are obviously many reasons but one indirect reason keeps coming to mind. The supporter base.

I firmly believe the attitude of supporters permeates through a footy club. 100%. From a distance Hawks supporters, whilst passionate. also seem to expect and demand ultimate success. And guess what? They get it in spades. On the other hand most Collingwood supporters (not all) seem to vicariously live through their player heroes. This adulation seems to almost get in the way of ultimate success. Case in point, the coaching succession plan that is now into its 9th year without ultimate success. Would Hawks supporters have demonstrated that level of patience for a former champion player who became senior coach? I think not.

Recently I have contacted a few Hawks mates in an attempt to wind them up about Clarko potentially going to Collingwood. Wind them up? Quite the contrary. Their responses were “well it’s probably time for a change”. Another mate was furious with their recent form against Collingwood. I responded that at least you can suckle on your most recent 3 flags. Didn’t matter to him.

Whilst a small sample size, the clear message/mantra is at Hawthorn they demand success. But words are cheap so they inevitably back it up with actions.
Conversely, at Collingwood, notwithstanding a hideous period from 2013-2017, the consensus from supporters is that we have played in a GF and PF over the past 2 years, so they're happy/contented.

Naturally the vast majority of Pies supporters vehemently disagree with this position and ultimately label you a Buckley hater, which I actually believe supports my argument. Really interested to know the view of Hawks supporters in this regard. Thanks!

 

[phlogiston]

As a long standing Collingwood supporter, I am truly envious of Hawthorn's record, not only recently but over the last 50 odd years. Your flag count is outrageous. And it makes me wonder why.There are obviously many reasons but one indirect reason keeps coming to mind. The supporter base.

I firmly believe the attitude of supporters permeates through a footy club. 100%. From a distance Hawks supporters, whilst passionate. also seem to expect and demand ultimate success. And guess what? They get it in spades. On the other hand most Collingwood supporters (not all) seem to vicariously live through their player heroes. This adulation seems to almost get in the way of ultimate success. Case in point, the coaching succession plan that is now into its 9th year without ultimate success. Would Hawks supporters have demonstrated that level of patience for a former champion player who became senior coach? I think not.

Recently I have contacted a few Hawks mates in an attempt to wind them up about Clarko potentially going to Collingwood. Wind them up? Quite the contrary. Their responses were “well it’s probably time for a change”. Another mate was furious with their recent form against Collingwood. I responded that at least you can suckle on your most recent 3 flags. Didn’t matter to him.

Whilst a small sample size, the clear message/mantra is at Hawthorn they demand success. But words are cheap so they inevitably back it up with actions.
Conversely, at Collingwood, notwithstanding a hideous period from 2013-2017, the consensus from supporters is that we have played in a GF and PF over the past 2 years, so they're happy/contented.

Naturally the vast majority of Pies supporters vehemently disagree with this position and ultimately label you a Buckley hater, which I actually believe supports my argument. Really interested to know the view of Hawks supporters in this regard. Thanks!

Thanks for dropping in. You make some interesting points, the big one (the central basis of your argument) being that footy clubs are fundamentally grass-roots. Just briefly:

1. There was a fair bit of supporter angst when Clarko was appointed over Ayres back in 2004. But the club powerbrokers knew that they were angling for success, not short-term sugar hit from a popularity poll with supporters. That is, they knew the supporters wanted success, not one of the old boys (not a pot shot at Ayres, BTW);
2. Once the Kennedy / Parkin era was over, pretty much all of our success has come from outsiders (Jeans, Clarkson), and poorer periods have been when favourite sons have been at the helm (Schwab, Judge). I wonder if this is because the outside influence stops groupthink and / or brings in fresh ideas. Has any club been successful since say 1990 with an "old boy" at the helm? You guys got over the line in 1990 with Leigh Matthews as coach, Brisbane ditto, Cats and Hawks both had outsiders as their coaches during their golden periods...;
3. Club admin is not beholden to the coaching staff. Look at the comments from Kennett (who's an odd unit anyway) about dropping Clarko to the seconds back in 2010(?) when the team wasn't performing too well. Could you see McGuire (also a strange unit) making the same comments about Buckley?
4. Your comment on a demanding approach is astute (notwithstanding people believing AC has favourites). Titus O'Reily summed it up nicely last year: https://www.titusoreily.com/afl/a-highly-unhelpful-guide-to-round-eight

Cheers,
P

 

[Pessimistic]

As a long standing Collingwood supporter, I am truly envious of Hawthorn's record, not only recently but over the last 50 odd years. Your flag count is outrageous. And it makes me wonder why.There are obviously many reasons but one indirect reason keeps coming to mind. The supporter base.

I firmly believe the attitude of supporters permeates through a footy club. 100%. From a distance Hawks supporters, whilst passionate. also seem to expect and demand ultimate success. And guess what? They get it in spades. On the other hand most Collingwood supporters (not all) seem to vicariously live through their player heroes. This adulation seems to almost get in the way of ultimate success. Case in point, the coaching succession plan that is now into its 9th year without ultimate success. Would Hawks supporters have demonstrated that level of patience for a former champion player who became senior coach? I think not.

Recently I have contacted a few Hawks mates in an attempt to wind them up about Clarko potentially going to Collingwood. Wind them up? Quite the contrary. Their responses were “well it’s probably time for a change”. Another mate was furious with their recent form against Collingwood. I responded that at least you can suckle on your most recent 3 flags. Didn’t matter to him.

Whilst a small sample size, the clear message/mantra is at Hawthorn they demand success. But words are cheap so they inevitably back it up with actions.
Conversely, at Collingwood, notwithstanding a hideous period from 2013-2017, the consensus from supporters is that we have played in a GF and PF over the past 2 years, so they're happy/contented.

Naturally the vast majority of Pies supporters vehemently disagree with this position and ultimately label you a Buckley hater, which I actually believe supports my argument. Really interested to know the view of Hawks supporters in this regard. Thanks!

Dermott concurred with that in describing his years at both clubs. Stillgood to remember when the hawks transitioned from the party club in the 50s, they emulated collingwood

 

[Help My Club]

Thanks for dropping in. You make some interesting points, the big one (the central basis of your argument) being that footy clubs are fundamentally grass-roots. Just briefly:

1. There was a fair bit of supporter angst when Clarko was appointed over Ayres back in 2004. But the club powerbrokers knew that they were angling for success, not short-term sugar hit from a popularity poll with supporters. That is, they knew the supporters wanted success, not one of the old boys (not a pot shot at Ayres, BTW);
2. Once the Kennedy / Parkin era was over, pretty much all of our success has come from outsiders (Jeans, Clarkson), and poorer periods have been when favourite sons have been at the helm (Schwab, Judge). I wonder if this is because the outside influence stops groupthink and / or brings in fresh ideas. Has any club been successful since say 1990 with an "old boy" at the helm? You guys got over the line in 1990 with Leigh Matthews as coach, Brisbane ditto, Cats and Hawks both had outsiders as their coaches during their golden periods...;
3. Club admin is not beholden to the coaching staff. Look at the comments from Kennett (who's an odd unit anyway) about dropping Clarko to the seconds back in 2010(?) when the team wasn't performing too well. Could you see McGuire (also a strange unit) making the same comments about Buckley?
4. Your comment on a demanding approach is astute (notwithstanding people believing AC has favourites). Titus O'Reily summed it up nicely last year: https://www.titusoreily.com/afl/a-highly-unhelpful-guide-to-round-eight

Cheers,
P

Thanks for your considered response in particular point 2. Collingwood's last 2 premiership coaches were outsiders which makes the appointment of Buckley as senior coach even more damming. Appointing past champion players/favourite sons as senior coach went out in the dark ages. The conflicts and issues are obvious should it not succeed. This is where McGuire has right royalty f----d up and subsequently put the club back at least a decade.

So there is a cautionary tale here for Hawthorn regarding Mitchell should it come to pass. But at least in the case of Mitchell he has been schooled by the master in a successful period. Success begets success. Also and importantly, he spent some quality time with another club (WCE).

In finishing regarding favourite sons, the great Lethal Leigh comes to mind. I'm sure he was courted a number of times by Hawthorn to come back as senior coach (maybe not) but for whatever reason(s) he didn't. I can only surmise that he was not prepared to fall for the "favourite son" trap. Same with Sheedy and Richmond.

 

[Teamwork Talks]

YES

 

[Davo-27]

I want to change my vote from yes to no, There are too many poor decisions being made and have been made, I've lost hope in winning a premiership for many years at this point...

My optimism 2 years ago is gone, I should have known better when they ignored the super draft of 2018.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

July 2018 was only 2 years ago, and at that point we didn’t have...

Impey
Frost
Wingard
Scully
Scrimshaw
Patton
Maginness
Day
Walker
Kosi
Hartley

99% of the above would be expected to be capable of senior football in 2022, and when you look at that list of players who’ve been added in just two years you can assume that by the time 2022 rolls around we’re going to have at least another 4-5 players on top of that who been added to list via either draft or trade who will also be competing for best 22 spots.

Who’s to say we don’t add Downie, Will Brodie*, Xavier O’Halloran*, Cedric Cox* and Ely Smith* in the next two years?

*or players of that 20-22yr age group, as Impey and Scrim were.

So the idea that anyone can be so adamant that the chance of success in the year 2022 is already lost due to a form slump in 2020 is just plain odd, unless you completely overlook the level of list change that is continually happening right before your eyes and predict literally zero improvement of the list in 2 off seasons years(which never happens).

 

[Flukey!]

I know it can turn quickly but I think we are miles off right now.
So no, 2022 is too early imho.

 

[Endorphin Machine]

July 2018 was only 2 years ago, and at that point we didn’t have...

Impey
Frost
Wingard
Scully
Scrimshaw
Patton
Maginness
Day
Walker
Kosi
Hartley

99% of the above would be expected to be capable of senior football in 2022, and when you look at that list of players who’ve been added in just two years you can assume that by the time 2022 rolls around we’re going to have at least another 4-5 players on top of that who been added to list via either draft or trade who will also be competing for best 22 spots.

Who’s to say we don’t add Downie, Will Brodie*, Xavier O’Halloran*, Cedric Cox* and Ely Smith* in the next two years?

*or players of that 20-22yr age group, as Impey and Scrim were.

So the idea that anyone can be so adamant that the chance of success in the year 2022 is already lost due to a form slump in 2020 is just plain odd, unless you completely overlook the level of list change that is continually happening right before your eyes and predict literally zero improvement of the list in 2 off seasons years(which never happens).

If you applied the same logic two years ago, you could predict a flag in 2020 was possible.

 

[SA HAWK]

I personally think we are more likely bottom 4 than top 4 in 2022.

Happy to be wrong.

 

[Walshawk]

You need a few champion players to win a flag and we don’t have any. Dangerfield aside, the only way to get them is high draft picks.
Our quickest way to a flag is to trade out any over 28s with value (Gunston and Briest) hit the draft hard this year, go young in 2021 and finish bottom 4, hit the draft hard again, then hope half a dozen kids come good before Sicily, JOM, MItchell and Wingard pass their peak. 2024/5 our next flag chance.

(By champions I mean match winners like Franklin, Hodge, Rioli, Roughead, MItchell, Rance, Martin, Bont, etc, almost all high draft picks.)

 

[Dave Id]

Six of our 1961 Premiership players joined the team in 1960.

Two were newbies and IIRC three joined up in 1959.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Six of our 1961 Premiership players joined the team in 1960.

Two were newbies and IIRC three joined up in 1959.

A fun fact indeed, but hardly relevant in today's discussion.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

If you applied the same logic two years ago, you could predict a flag in 2020 was possible.

Correct. That’s exactly my point.

 

[Roddy]

Getting massive deja vu in this thread, it's like the kneejerkers have gone back to similar threads in 05-06 and 09-10, and cut and paste their same comments from those into this one. Except they don't even know they're regurgitating the same old bollocks. This is the Hawthorn board's Groundhog Day....

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Getting massive deja vu in this thread, it's like the kneejerkers have gone back to similar threads in 05-06 and 09-10, and cut and paste their same comments from those into this one. Except they don't even know they're regurgitating the same old bollocks. This is the Hawthorn board's Groundhog Day....

Haha. This is completely different to those two periods, they are completely un-relatable.

In 05/06 we had generational talents coming through with a new coach, and were coming off a few years of despair. Anything was up from there.

In 09/10 we had a talented list that had got ahead of themselves. We had multiple generational talents that had proven that they could lead a team to a flag.

This current list has a few second tier premiership players left and one top tier player who is unfortunately on his last legs.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Still no