Zac walks out of St. Kilda

[The Filth]

Is that because he basically tore you a new one repeatedly? Riewoldts record against Collingwood was inccredible especially in finals.

2008 and 2009 - yes - 5 goals in each final. A great player.
Ancient history though. Saints at their peak. Even Kosi was scoring goals!
GF 2009 v Geelong 13 disposals - scored 1.1

Versus Pies: STATS
2010
Round 3 - injured 2nd half - But still only 5 disposals to half time - no goals
Round 16 - 10 disposals - scored 1.2

2011
Round 11 - 19 disposals - 0.2
Round 21 - 10 disposals - 2.0

GF1 (draw) - 16 disposals 2.3
GF2 (replay) - 17 disposals 0.1

I don't think Riewoldt has "tore us a new one" since 2009 Humpy.
Who knows if he will ever "tear" anyone a new one again.
Pay around $900k? At least $700k by any estimate.

 

[clarky449]

You are hilarious.

Are you 5?

 

[The Filth]

Anyway...back to the topic...who replaces Zac Humpy?
Saints have a great draw for 2012 only playing the top 4 once, but who plays on Buddy? Dawes/Cloke? etc etc..Couldn't beat the top 4 with Zac, how about without Zac?

 

[Hump 17]

2008 and 2009 - yes - 5 goals in each final. A great player.
Ancient history though. Saints at their peak. Even Kosi was scoring goals!
GF 2009 v Geelong 13 disposals - scored 1.1

Versus Pies: STATS
2010
Round 3 - injured 2nd half - But still only 5 disposals to half time - no goals
Round 16 - 10 disposals - scored 1.2

2011
Round 11 - 19 disposals - 0.2
Round 21 - 10 disposals - 2.0

GF1 (draw) - 16 disposals 2.3
GF2 (replay) - 17 disposals 0.1

I don't think Riewoldt has "tore us a new one" since 2009 Humpy.
Who knows if he will ever "tear" anyone a new one again.
Pay around $900k? At least $700k by any estimate.

You do realise you just proved my point. Last game v Collingwood pre injury BOG in a final with 15 odd marks and five goals. After injury in 2010 he wasnt at his best.

 

[L_W_P]

I would say a combination of Blake, Gwilt, Fisher, Simpkin and Arher will be used in the key posts over the season. Don't be surprised to see Goddard spend most of the year in defence to help out either. We could also draft a couple of defenders and see how they fare.

Let's not forget that Reid and Brown were both fairly unknown before 2010. Reid was almost cut loose after failing up forward.

Dawson was terrible one-on-one. As a third man up or as part of the team defence he did well to play his role. Not terribly sad to see him go, just annoyed at the way it was handled. He is a Ross Lyon project so I guess it's to be expected.....

 

[Hump 17]

Anyway...back to the topic...who replaces Zac Humpy?
Saints have a great draw for 2012 only playing the top 4 once, but who plays on Buddy? Dawes/Cloke? etc etc..Couldn't beat the top 4 with Zac, how about without Zac?

Dawes???? Please why would you bother.

 

[blaze036]

Why are u still talking about riewoldt..

 

[The Filth]

You do realise you just proved my point. Last game v Collingwood pre injury BOG in a final with 15 odd marks and five goals. After injury in 2010 he wasnt at his best.

I wasn't trying to prove Timmy of Thomastowns argument.

Riewoldt kicked 5 goals against North Melbourne and 4 V Port Adelaide, he is running fine too. Unfortunately you don't play V Kangas and Port in finals.
I would say that an injury in 2010 is no longer an excuse.
Flat track bully- perhaps?

It is fine when Riewoldt runs upfield into the midfield to get a kick. Problem is then - who does he kick it to? His own kicking for goal is suspect too. Unfortunately the Saints have tried to win games through defence and only scoring 12-14 goals a game. You rely heavily on Roo and Milne, but they are not getting any younger and are probably past their peak - injury or no injury. Hopefully Watters can re-vamp your attack, but you still must consider if you have seen Roo's best football.

Anyway Humpy - Zac...Thoughts?

 

[The Filth]

Dawes???? Please why would you bother.

Come on Humpy...Saints would have him in a heartbeat to take the pressure of Roo.

You could play that irish bloke i saw kick a bag against our reserves..oh, wait...he went to Sydney didn't he!

Oh well..theres always Kosi....not quite a ruck or a forward...maybe this is his "break-out" year hmmmm

 

[Hump 17]

Come on Humpy...Saints would have him in a heartbeat to take the pressure of Roo.

You could play that irish bloke i saw kick a bag against our reserves..oh, wait...he went to Sydney didn't he!

Oh well..theres always Kosi....not quite a ruck or a forward...maybe this is his "break-out" year hmmmm

What are you a parrot? Im pretty happy with the defence as its been as good as any for three years with Blake Fisher Raph Gwilt and Gilbert as tall medium defenders and a young guy Ferguson coming through.

 

[The Filth]

What are you a parrot? Im pretty happy with the defence as its been as good as any for three years with Blake Fisher Raph Gwilt and Gilbert as tall medium defenders and a young guy Ferguson coming through.

Yes but who plays
F-U-L-L-B-A-C-K????

 

[Hump 17]

Yes but who plays
F-U-L-L-B-A-C-K????

Depends on whos playing Full forward.

 

[Falchoon]

But the stats belie the theory. Riewoldts form was very good especially in the QF and SF 1

Yes he had a couple of very good spurts which dragged us over the line

He played 1 unbelievable qtr v Footscray and then blew up
He played 1 and a half unbelievable qtr's v Geelong and then blew up

Much like Reid, the blew up bit anyway.

and also in GF1...........albeit maybe not at AA levels of 2009 but certainly very good...."career average"

agreed, particularly in light of the inside 50 count

as your fellow apologist like to put it.

*cough*

I was simply comparing an injured Reid costing us a flag

Dawson wasnt injured. Reid was as you owell know,

no need for excuses, if you're out there you're apparently a better option than the next best fit bloke.

Back on topic, Zac did his job in 3 grand finals and was certainly a better option than a bloke who hadn't played a game in 5 weeks,had had 5 'hammies' in his last 30 games and who almost certainly would have blown up Reid style.

 

[The Kipster]

He was on 250k per year at the Saints. Pelchen probably had something to do with this, 'hey wait a second, haven't I already sacked you years ago?'

agreed .....Napoleon Dynamite...pack ya bags and **** off

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Back on topic, Zac did his job in 3 grand finals and was certainly a better option than a bloke who hadn't played a game in 5 weeks,had had 5 'hammies' in his last 30 games and who almost certainly would have blown up Reid style.

Agree with that. Dawson had to play fully fit because StKilda had no fourth option that could threaten his spot. And he was ok...not great but did enough. I always agreed that it was right to leave Hudgton out. Lyon made a mistake the following year by bringing Baker back. If he was going to do it he should have done it at the first available opportunity (the QF against the Cats) or not at all. It was unfair on Baker to ask him to hit peak form a fornight later in the PF.

Reid had to play injured because Collingwood had no fourth option...Keefe not up to it yet... although in hindsight it was clearly a mistake and Goldsack should have been selected, despite not really being a kpp. It was a mistake that Malthouse is responsible for and would have been a bone of contention but for the fact that he is now gone. Malthouse should have also selected Wood over Brown. Groin injuries are notoriously hard to manage, sometimes players get through, other times they dont, but considering Reid reies heavily on his athleticism, his injury was always likely to be a problem.

 

[MarkT2]

other than not having played in 5 weeks, cold wet weather and 6 soft tissue injuries in his last 30 games?

Was more looking at the early decision to push Max aside not the self fulfilling prophesy that followed.

I can't see how matching outside offers on Ball would have helped St Kilda's salary cap.

I think what you can't see is the forest for the trees. Ball was alienated, then Ball wanted out, then Ball gets a better offer. Stop step 1 and Ball stays for a reasonable wage. In any case, the cap issue are not due to Ball and in fact should have been aided by his departure yet there is still a problem. That is all separate to Lyon then walking leaving a salary cap mess. St Kilda isn’t the first club he’s walked out on either. By all means though, feel free to keep defending Lyon. No skin of my nose

I'm sure Freo will be devastated to know that more of the same will get them to within 10 minutes of a flag, twice.

No doubt you are but they recruited Lyon to win flags not to lose them.

 

[Falchoon]

Agree with that. Dawson had to play fully fit because StKilda had no fourth option that could threaten his spot. And he was ok...not great but did enough. I always agreed that it was right to leave Hudgton out. Lyon made a mistake the following year by bringing Baker back. If he was going to do it he should have done it at the first available opportunity (the QF against the Cats) or not at all. It was unfair on Baker to ask him to hit peak form a fornight later in the PF.

I thought the reasoning on Baker was sound.

That being that he'd be ok in his first game back but would struggle in his 2nd.

and so it proved.

 

[Falchoon]

Was more looking at the early decision to push Max aside

As late as round 21 he couldn't play through a full Sandringham game - coming off at half time. His body, particularly hammies and calves just weren't holding up, & at that point both he and Zac offered the same skill set.

Coming back in he would be a massive risk and he had to break into a defence that had kept teams to 64, 67, 52 and 53 points in his absence, ie a defence that was getting the job done.

not the self fulfilling prophesy that followed.

Meh, self fulfilling prophecies, history revisionism, we all have our foibles.

I think what you can't see is the forest for the trees. Ball was alienated, then Ball wanted out, then Ball gets a better offer. Stop step 1 and Ball stays for a reasonable wage.

I think what you can't see is the forest for the tree.

Ball and Hayes together in the centre square made St Kilda too slow, neither really were able to play elsewhere well. Is Ball a good player, yes, is playing Ball, Goddard and Hayes together in the centre square a good idea, no. St Kilda were struggling salary cap wise and offered Ball a reduced salary whilst at the same time trying to inject some pace, did it work? no, Lovett ****ed it up. Do I applaud the risk/reward thinking? yes.

Interestingly the closest we have come to a flag was with Goddard and Hayes dominating the centre square against Ball whilst Thomas, Shaw and Sidebottom dominated the flanks.

In any case, the cap issue are not due to Ball

no, it's more likely due to 40 players rather than just the one, fixing it may involve the culling of 1 or 2 particular players though.

and in fact should have been aided by his departure yet there is still a problem.

yes St Kilda have a strong core of 27ish year old players who have won 120 games in the last 8 years and are generally well paid.

That is all separate to Lyon then walking leaving a salary cap mess. St Kilda isn’t the first club he’s walked out on either. By all means though, feel free to keep defending Lyon. No skin of my nose

He played a risk reward strategy and missed by the skin of that nose, I'm happy to defend that.

2009 was a lost opportunity, 2010 Lyon dragged us to the Granny kicking and screaming and very nearly pulled it off, I applaud that, always will.

No doubt you are but they recruited Lyon to win flags not to lose them.

They recruited him to put their group of players in a position to win one.

No doubt well aware that it's a high risk high reward strategy, again I for one applaud them, it's about time they got some balls.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Anyway...back to the topic...who replaces Zac Humpy?
Saints have a great draw for 2012 only playing the top 4 once, but who plays on Buddy? Dawes/Cloke? etc etc..Couldn't beat the top 4 with Zac, how about without Zac?

Zac has played against Buddy before ( sorry about the tooth - he said ) but he really isnt an ideal player for him. Maybe someone like Gilbert is a better match, but Buddy is a hard match up for a lot of teams.
Dawes : Fisher, Simpkin, Gwilt, Blake not a huge issue.
Cloke: Zac wasn't great against him, and I think he would have struggled against John Brown as well.
Archer ( 193cm 99Kg ) has potential, but he really hasnt played down back enough for us to know.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

No love for Stanley? Could he potentially play key position in the backline?

Seems to me Gwilt and Fisher will have to fill the key positions...leaving StKilda with plenty of talent but a bit light on for size against the monster forwards....and thats assuming Gwilt doesnt have any injury setbacks.

 

[Moo]

Zac has played against Buddy before ( sorry about the tooth - he said ) but he really isnt an ideal player for him. Maybe someone like Gilbert is a better match, but Buddy is a hard match up for a lot of teams.
Dawes : Fisher, Simpkin, Gwilt, Blake not a huge issue.
Cloke: Zac wasn't great against him, and I think he would have struggled against John Brown as well.
Archer ( 193cm 99Kg ) has potential, but he really hasnt played down back enough for us to know.

In a team like Freo - Buddy would be taken by McPharlin or SCOS ...Dawson is a pretty handy 3rd option.

 

[MarkT2]

Falchoon:
1. You are missing the point re Lyon and managment. Max and Ball were pushed aside for lesser players and over and above that there were important clubmen which is also something that helps win flags.
2. Ball & Hayes would make St. Kilda better in 2009 and 2010 onwards. Pace can be important but ability is king. The fact your wide pace came from ordinary players is another issue again.
3. I like the use of the word foibles.

 

[Falchoon]

No love for Stanley? Could he potentially play key position in the backline?

Needs to develop his tank, McEvoy is quicker on 50m sprint number 30. Tom Simpkin is a likely enough type but might be another year away.

Seems to me Gwilt and Fisher will have to fill the key positions...leaving StKilda with plenty of talent but a bit light on for size against the monster forwards....and thats assuming Gwilt doesnt have any injury setbacks.

That's the major part of losing Zac, Fisher can do the job but he's one of the best readers of the play in the comp.

I imagine Sam Gilbert @ 194cm will be hitting the weights as our tallest current defender.

 

[peppy la pew]

Any chance of straying back onto the topic?

You mean i'm not in the " Collingwood Forever " thread

 

[Hump 17]

Falchoon:
1. You are missing the point re Lyon and managment. Max and Ball were pushed aside for lesser players and over and above that there were important clubmen which is also something that helps win flags.
2. Ball & Hayes would make St. Kilda better in 2009 and 2010 onwards. Pace can be important but ability is king. The fact your wide pace came from ordinary players is another issue again.
3. I like the use of the word foibles.

Ball showed what sort of a clubman he really is.