List Mgmt. Nick Austin - Head Of List Management

[Blue_Fusion]

You might be giving some context by mentioning names like weddle and Logan morris as players missed but we have to be careful about chery picking players taken later in the draft that look good. Every club would look bad by this standard.

100% agree. Just trying to give context and point out who we could've picked.

Regarding weddle, my memory from his draft year was that he played as either key defender or third tall intercepting defender. It was a great bit of projection for the hawks to see the player he could become with his elite running but this wasnt a straight forward pick.

His draft profile was a bit more in depth than key defender or third tall interceptor... in fact, many figured his size might not translate well as a kpd at afl level.

When being critical of our selections I would be more inclined to look purely at the players we took and assess there traits and whether they stack up for afl level and do they fit a list need.

An example would be Jackson binns. Run was a list need. But I think this was a poor pick because his traits as an under 18 player did not align with afl football. He is a very outside player with questionable disposal. This combination is a red flag for afl footy. Secondly his running style has no power or core strength to it, even for an outside player. Has to avoid contact because too easily stopped. Looks far too outside a player. Wingers at under 18 level are known as a risky proposition for afl footy.

Who's your pick at #32 instead?

Re. lemmey His size combined with lack of physicality or strength in contest, is another bad combination for afl footy.

At pick #47, there really wasn't much else on offer... unless we cherry pick here...

I have some other gripes like recruiting so many half backs with lack of attention to small forwards, but in saying all the above l don’t think Austin has been as bad as some say. He’s had to try and plug a lot of holes because of previous failed drafting with high draft picks.

Why do you think there was a lack of attention to small forwards? This has been an issue for us dating back years.

They drafted Durdin and Motlop for this role. Both were rated at around our pick at the time of the draft. Who should he have taken instead?

When it was clear that they need more time, we've tried stop gap options like Fantasia and Evans. Didn't have the draft capital to go after someone of higher ilk.

Higgins could have been an option in 2020 instead of drafting Durdin, but we gave pick 30 for Fogarty and 8 was reserved for the Saad deal.

 

[tarczonandjane]

I don’t claim to have any insights on who makes the recruiting calls. But for mine, Frankie Evans absolutely reeks of Voss. I am half expecting the decision will be used as a millstone around the coach’s neck.

 

[sparkybagger]

The one comfort I take is that we've got a CEO in waiting who is a true footy brain and should have the experience to evaluate what appears to be multiple deficiencies in the footy dept. I personally can't tell how Austin has been doing as the coaching side of things appears to be an absolute rabble.

Cook has applied his commercial and operational acumen, and the club appears to be in good shape again so Wright can pivot the focus back to sorting out a sustainable model for on-field matters.

 

[Arr0w]

I don’t claim to have any insights on who makes the recruiting calls. But for mine, Frankie Evans absolutely reeks of Voss. I am half expecting the decision will be used as a millstone around the coach’s neck.

Let's say Fantasia and Evans was purely driven by Voss alone

2 players in 5 off seasons

Think any concern needs to be directed elsewhere

 

[BlueBlood15]

The frustration I have with Austin and our list is we appear to have a bulging salary cap and minimal draft capital, yet we aren’t playing like a contender. Essentially we haven’t found enough value for money in the contracts we have given out.

I read this morning that teams like Hawthorn, Collingwood and Brisbane are into Oscar Allen. All teams likely to finish above us on the ladder yet have the ability to bring in a big piece to improve them again over the off season. Hawks also went and grabbed Barass and Battle to fill holes last year.

Our only way to improve the list at the moment is to hope our father son or academies come on or trade out a key player to acquire some salary cap space and trade currency. The more I think about it, a tough call is likely going to be required to allow us to address many of our pressing needs - skill and speed most notably.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

The frustration I have with Austin and our list is we appear to have a bulging salary cap and minimal draft capital, yet we aren’t playing like a contender. Essentially we haven’t found enough value for money in the contracts we have given out.

I read this morning that teams like Hawthorn, Collingwood and Brisbane are into Oscar Allen. All teams likely to finish above us on the ladder yet have the ability to bring in a big piece to improve them again over the off season. Hawks also went and grabbed Barass and Battle to fill holes last year.

Our only way to improve the list at the moment is to hope our father son or academies come on or trade out a key player to acquire some salary cap space and trade currency. The more I think about it, a tough call is likely going to be required to allow us to address many of our pressing needs - skill and speed most notably.

Almost certainly. Unless we turn things around and get back to our best like in 2023 I think major change will occur within the playing list. You can't be maxing out your salary cap with no picks for the year and be a middling team.

 

[ray8182]

100% agree. Just trying to give context and point out who we could've picked.



His draft profile was a bit more in depth than key defender or third tall interceptor... in fact, many figured his size might not translate well as a kpd at afl level.



Who's your pick at #32 instead?



At pick #47, there really wasn't much else on offer... unless we cherry pick here...



Why do you think there was a lack of attention to small forwards? This has been an issue for us dating back years.

They drafted Durdin and Motlop for this role. Both were rated at around our pick at the time of the draft. Who should he have taken instead?

When it was clear that they need more time, we've tried stop gap options like Fantasia and Evans. Didn't have the draft capital to go after someone of higher ilk.

Higgins could have been an option in 2020 instead of drafting Durdin, but we gave pick 30 for Fogarty and 8 was reserved for the Saad deal.

2022 Pick 32 - After pick 32 l didnt know the players well enough pre draft. I would be cherry picking with hindsight. Harvey Gallagher, Toby mcmullin did get a little bit of my interest at the time. My main point would be that Binns was highly likely to fail given his type. It was like throwing pick 32 away. Some of the other selections had a better profile for afl.

Lemmey isn’t a big deal at 47 but l didn’t think he was a need at the time. Collingwood took Joe Richard’s with the very next pick. He was a type that would have suited us and probably had a better profile for afl. Must admit didn’t know much about him at the time.

I don’t mind the Motlop durdin selections. For pick 37 Durdin looked the goods in 2022 but has been injury plagued since. Motlop has talent but work rate an issue. I still believe he can make it. On the whole, Carlton has put little effort and capital into small forwards. Motlop, durdin, Fogarty, fantasia, Evan’s, white. That is like doing as little as possible in terms of investment. Yes it’s true we haven’t had as much draft capital to play with but for instance the binns and lemmey picks could have been focused in this area if it was made a priority.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[The Return of the Paf]

What was poor was the 4 years prior to Austin, 2016-2019. If Austin is poor, then these 4 years were an absolute disaster. So many high draft picks wasted with poor talent identification or poor list strategy. Failed in drafting/recruiting midfielders, half backs, half forwards, small forwards. Any medium size or small players of note would have been useful. Compare Austin’s record to this debacle and he looks like a genius. Carlton is still trying to put the pieces back together.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's why I say he needed a foil. Silvagni was volatile as a list manager, you can redirect his energy but you can't energize mediocrity.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

2022 Pick 32 - After pick 32 l didnt know the players well enough pre draft. I would be cherry picking with hindsight. Harvey Gallagher, Toby mcmullin did get a little bit of my interest at the time. My main point would be that Binns was highly likely to fail given his type. It was like throwing pick 32 away. Some of the other selections had a better profile for afl.

Lemmey isn’t a big deal at 47 but l didn’t think he was a need at the time. Collingwood took Joe Richard’s with the very next pick. He was a type that would have suited us and probably had a better profile for afl. Must admit didn’t know much about him at the time.

I don’t mind the Motlop durdin selections. For pick 37 Durdin looked the goods in 2022 but has been injury plagued since. Motlop has talent but work rate an issue. I still believe he can make it. On the whole, Carlton has put little effort and capital into small forwards. Motlop, durdin, Fogarty, fantasia, Evan’s, white. That is like doing as little as possible in terms of investment. Yes it’s true we haven’t had as much draft capital to play with but for instance the binns and lemmey picks could have been focused in this area if it was made a priority.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

McMullin had question marks around endurance... no way we were selecting him.

Harvey Gallagher and Joe Richards would do very little to improve our circumstances.

imo, we missed the boat on Higgins and Ginnivan. Both were taken with slight pick downgrades, Sure they might be dick heads but they would have changed our situation significantly...

The rubbish midfield choices from SOS really hurt us the most:

Dow, LoB, SPS, Setterfield...

Giving future 1st for Stocker when we were rubbish and clearly set for another poor year in 2019...

Can't really blame Austin for trying to address the midfield problems after that...

We tried to turn Williams into one... then we had to give up pick 6 to bring Cerra in.

Last year we gave up pretty much all draft capital for 2024 and 2025 drafts to get Smith...

 

[ray8182]

McMullin had question marks around endurance... no way we were selecting him.

Harvey Gallagher and Joe Richards would do very little to improve our circumstances.

imo, we missed the boat on Higgins and Ginnivan. Both were taken with slight pick downgrades, Sure they might be dick heads but they would have changed our situation significantly...

The rubbish midfield choices from SOS really hurt us the most:

Dow, LoB, SPS, Setterfield...

Giving future 1st for Stocker when we were rubbish and clearly set for another poor year in 2019...

Can't really blame Austin for trying to address the midfield problems after that...

We tried to turn Williams into one... then we had to give up pick 6 to bring Cerra in.

Last year we gave up pretty much all draft capital for 2024 and 2025 drafts to get Smith...

I’m not suggesting Gallagher and Richard’s are anything special but as late picks they are closer to the mark and making contributions to there clubs best 22. Because they are closer to the mark any future growth in there football will see them as good players.

Someone players continue to grow and develop so if they already have the core basic traits in place there is hope.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Korn]

Jack Newnes, Will Hayes, Fantasia, and possibly Nick Haynes and Evans. These are bad signings. Some really bad eye for talent is working for our recruitment.
And then you have Zac Williams' big contract and Lewis Young's contract extensions.
Don't know who is in charge - Austin or Voss, the actual management of the list needs a big overhaul.

 

[ray8182]

That's why I say he needed a foil. Silvagni was volatile as a list manager, you can redirect his energy but you can't energize mediocrity.

I’m not sure l follow. Wasn’t 2016-2019 less than mediocre.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[The Return of the Paf]

2022 Pick 32 - After pick 32 l didnt know the players well enough pre draft. I would be cherry picking with hindsight. Harvey Gallagher, Toby mcmullin did get a little bit of my interest at the time. My main point would be that Binns was highly likely to fail given his type. It was like throwing pick 32 away. Some of the other selections had a better profile for afl.

Lemmey isn’t a big deal at 47 but l didn’t think he was a need at the time. Collingwood took Joe Richard’s with the very next pick. He was a type that would have suited us and probably had a better profile for afl. Must admit didn’t know much about him at the time.

I don’t mind the Motlop durdin selections. For pick 37 Durdin looked the goods in 2022 but has been injury plagued since. Motlop has talent but work rate an issue. I still believe he can make it. On the whole, Carlton has put little effort and capital into small forwards. Motlop, durdin, Fogarty, fantasia, Evan’s, white. That is like doing as little as possible in terms of investment. Yes it’s true we haven’t had as much draft capital to play with but for instance the binns and lemmey picks could have been focused in this area if it was made a priority.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

'If only Austin had concentrated more on getting small forwards' is a myth. Just like it was in relation to 'help for Cripps', 'tall defenders', 'better ruckmen' - when we think we've dealt with the 'small forwards' issue only to come up short once more it will be something else again.

You draft 'best available' (as in, who has the best traits to make it at AFL level) and if who's available won't be good enough, you improve your drafting position. The quality comes when you learn to read the draft and your list better. If it's not 'this year' it will be next...

 

[The Return of the Paf]

I’m not sure l follow. Wasn’t 2016-2019 less than mediocre.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's beside the point. That had to do with his volatility and having no one around or willing to temper his decisions.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I’m not suggesting Gallagher and Richard’s are anything special but as late picks they are closer to the mark and making contributions to there clubs best 22. Because they are closer to the mark any future growth in there football will see them as good players.

Someone players continue to grow and develop so if they already have the core basic traits in place there is hope.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yeah I'm not really feeling that... those two would hardly make a difference to our circumstances and shouldn't be the basis of saying Austin hasn't made good choices at the draft.

Like I said, he's had to bear the brunt of terrible midfield recruiting which has hampered his ability to focus on other areas.

 

[ray8182]

'If only Austin had consecrated more on getting small forwards' is a myth. It will be something else next year just like it was 'help for Cripps', 'tall defenders', 'better ruckmen' and then 'small forwards'.

You draft 'best available' (as in, who has the best traits to make it at AFL level) and if who's available won't be good enough, you improve your drafting position. The quality comes when you learn to read the draft and your list better. if it's not 'this year' it will be next...

Small forwards or in general, players with good speed endurance agility combination are just the most obvious gaping hole at the moment. Right now Carlton is in a mode where it needs to focus on needs.

The list with the most talent might look pretty but doesn’t nessarily make a premiership team.

Sometimes best available is a myth. Quite often there are many players of similar rating available at a pick.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Michael Jezz]

The word out of the stingrays in 2023 was binns could not kick and was not coachable, having a high opinion of himself. This was told to me. Many in local footy were stunned we recruited him. Clearly

2022 Pick 32 - After pick 32 l didnt know the players well enough pre draft. I would be cherry picking with hindsight. Harvey Gallagher, Toby mcmullin did get a little bit of my interest at the time. My main point would be that Binns was highly likely to fail given his type. It was like throwing pick 32 away. Some of the other selections had a better profile for afl.

Lemmey isn’t a big deal at 47 but l didn’t think he was a need at the time. Collingwood took Joe Richard’s with the very next pick. He was a type that would have suited us and probably had a better profile for afl. Must admit didn’t know much about him at the time.

I don’t mind the Motlop durdin selections. For pick 37 Durdin looked the goods in 2022 but has been injury plagued since. Motlop has talent but work rate an issue. I still believe he can make it. On the whole, Carlton has put little effort and capital into small forwards. Motlop, durdin, Fogarty, fantasia, Evan’s, white. That is like doing as little as possible in terms of investment. Yes it’s true we haven’t had as much draft capital to play with but for instance the binns and lemmey picks could have been focused in this area if it was made a priority.

Binns was not even highly regarded by his u18 club


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ray8182]

Yeah I'm not really feeling that... those two would hardly make a difference to our circumstances and shouldn't be the basis of saying Austin hasn't made good choices at the draft.

Like I said, he's had to bear the brunt of terrible midfield recruiting which has hampered his ability to focus on other areas.

We are talking about late picks. I’m not sure what the expectation is here. I’m not sure there was much gold after pick 30.

My main point is that binns should not have been taken in the draft because of obvious flaws which made him unsuitable for afl. But we did and this is an indicator, to me atleast, that we don’t fully understand what it takes for afl football.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Stamos]

Giving future 1st for Stocker when we were rubbish and clearly set for another poor year in 2019.....

This isn’t right, we weren’t ‘clearly set for another poor year’ in 2019. We’d come off an abnormally bad 2018 due to a horror injury run. Bolton going completely off the rails wasn’t foreseeable.
We should have been a 50/50 team challenging to make finals.
The strategy was sound, unfortunately Stocker was the wrong pick.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

We are talking about late picks. I’m not sure what the expectation is here. I’m not sure there was much gold after pick 30.

My main point is that binns should not have been taken in the draft because of obvious flaws which made him unsuitable for afl. But we did and this is an indicator, to me atleast, that we don’t fully understand what it takes for afl football.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Or, the coaches demand for runners being the catalyst for the decision...

You can't say he is bad at identifying talent/afl traits and at the same time say you're ok with Durdin and Motlop selections...

Nor can you criticise the selection of Binns by saying he could have picked McMullin or Gallagher... both types that the coach wasn't after...

Like I said, both Higgins and Ginnivan were gettable and would have significantly addressed our small forward issues. We elected to draft instead and ended up with Fogarty, Durdin and Moir...

The massive contract for Williams to play as mid also a mistake as well as giving up pick 8 for Saad.

Gives long term contracts to players like Cottrell and Pitto when they weren't warranted...

 

[Blue_Fusion]

This isn’t right, we weren’t ‘clearly set for another poor year’ in 2019. We’d come off an abnormally bad 2018 due to a horror injury run. Bolton going completely off the rails wasn’t foreseeable.
We should have been a 50/50 team challenging to make finals.
The strategy was sound, unfortunately Stocker was the wrong pick.

2018 wasn't just because of injuries... the game plan and where our list was at had more to do with it. We'd just traded Gibbs, Kruze and Simmo on their last legs.

2019 should have seen some natural progression but nothing more than a bottom 6 finish and that's being optimistic.

We were nowhere near ready to challenge for finals... off the back of a season where we won 2 games? Only won 13 games combined in 2016 and 2017... not even in the stratosphere of challenging to make finals...

 

[Stamos]

2018 wasn't just because of injuries... the game plan and where our list was at had more to do with it. We'd just traded Gibbs, Kruze and Simmo on their last legs.

2019 should have seen some natural progression but nothing more than a bottom 6 finish and that's being optimistic.

We were nowhere near ready to challenge for finals... off the back of a season where we won 2 games? Only won 13 games combined in 2016 and 2017... not even in the stratosphere of challenging to make finals...

Teague, a terrible coach took over and we went 6-5.
And one of the 5 losses was in the final round against the top of the ladder Cats at Kardinia park. Only 1 (Dee’s by 5 points) was to a team that finished outside the 8.
We were a way better team than 1-10

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Teague, a terrible coach took over and we went 6-5.
And one of the 5 losses was in the final round against the top of the ladder Cats at Kardinia park. Only 1 (Dee’s by 5 points) was to a team that finished outside the 8.
We were a way better team than 1-10

They got a bit of energy off the back of being rid of Bolton. Also, Cripps' inhuman performance that got us over the line against the Lions added to that energy.

Teague gave the seniors more game time in their best pos.

Different story across a whole season.

Evidenced by the fact that same Teague managed to get us 7 wins in 2020 and 8 wins in 2021.

 

[Stamos]

Like I said, both Higgins and Ginnivan were gettable and would have significantly addressed our small forward issues.

How do you reckon Ginnivan would have gone at Carlton?
Under our current coaching and system?

McRae, who had just won a flag, wanted to get rid of him.
But he’s doing well at Hawthorn, under Mitchell, who I think is an absolute freak.

It’s not just about who you pick.

 

[Stamos]

Evidenced by the fact that same Teague managed to get us 7 wins in 2020 and 8 wins in 2021.

This is my point. Teague was a terrible coach, and we went backwards under him. We did not achieve to the potential of the list.

But the second half of 2019 showed what the list was capable of in 2019. And given the list make-up, we should have been improving year on year.