Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 5 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[_Mike_]

 

[Mofra]

West is going to re sign very soon from all reports. He took a major step forward and his demoting should motivate him to take a mid spot next year and slowly get more mid mins to chop out Libba (or replace Dunks)

Conflicting reports today - some saying he's gone.
Jon Ralph:

The Port trade offer for Dunkley. Dogs offer is around $650K. Not sure Port offer is much bigger than that despite reports. But if you haven’t signed after talks started 11 months ago you are surely a big chance to leave. West, JJ, Martin, Cordy also out

 

[weltschmerz]

Conflicting reports today - some saying he's gone.
Jon Ralph:

not just a cut off "out of contract"?

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Funnily enough English isn't that good as an out and out forward. If you look at his games at the end of last year when he was playing predominately there he wasn't very good. He actually gets most of his goals and marks inside 50 pushing forward after a stoppage and out working his ruck opponent

This is what I keep explaining to some posters.

English has most impact through the freedom he gets playing the ruck role. Play him forward and he’s restricted due to direct opposition and the defensive systems teams have in place.

I’d be very surprised if English was anything more than serviceable as a permanent or predominantly played forward.

 

[Chalky White]

1. Scott and Garcia are both this
2. He averages 3 marks a game as does Scott
3. Scott and Garcia have kicked multiple goals before too
4. Scott played as a defender/defensive winger and defensive forward Garcia also plays the same role
5. No they don't this ones a laughable one to include

So Scott has 4/4 and the only thing has over Garcia is marking.

1 Haven't seen it with Scott and Garcia, never seen them shirk but they aren't brutal at the ball.
2 Contested marks. A chip across the ground hardly constitutes a mark.
3 I mean more than 2 goals
4 So now you are saying they play different roles to West. So in effect not ahead of West then?
5 Yes they do

Pointless arguing with you mate. You see things a different way to me.
I saw that we were soft as butter on Saturday night and that we needed a player with edge in that forward line. VDM was played in that role but he is as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

 

[Foxman98]

This is what I keep explaining to some posters.

English has most impact through the freedom he gets playing the ruck role. Play him forward and he’s restricted due to direct opposition and the defensive systems teams have in place.

I’d be very surprised if English was anything more than serviceable as a permanent or predominantly played forward.

Ruckman aren't defenders is the simplest way to put it.

 

[Mofra]

One thing West has got ahead of all those three is Footy Smarts and that has no measurement.

I'd argue his footy smarts (and handball ability) are brilliant in traffic.
His ability to hold space and not get sucked towards the contest is something he doesn't do that well (like many junior stars) - suggesting to me he is a natural midfielder rather than a forward. That's no slight on him and I want to keep him.

I think he can make a go of it at high half forward but I still think he has midfield potential. Just nowhere near a wing - holding position outside of a contest just isn't in his blood.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

True

I hope Bevvo gets it out of his FN thick head that English is not a ruckman. He's a forward and a pinch hitter ruckman! If we get Lobb, he should play 70% as the main ruck and then interchange with Darcy and English to give him a chop out and rest up forward as Lobb can also play forward. If not Lobb, give Sweet more games..

This English "Ruck Fantasy" is a primary reason we leak so many goals as we don't get first use of the ball

Don’t get first use of the ball? We’ve been the most dominant clearance team of the last 24mths. Regardless of how it’s used, we’d get our hands on the ball first at stoppages more than other any team in the comp.

 

[Foxman98]

1 Haven't seen it with Scott and Garcia, never seen them shirk but they aren't brutal at the ball.
2 Contested marks. A chip across the ground hardly constitutes a mark.
3 I mean more than 2 goals
4 So now you are saying they play different roles to West. So in effect not ahead of West then?
5 Yes they do

Pointless arguing with you mate. You see things a different way to me.
I saw that we were soft as butter on Saturday night and that we needed a player with edge in that forward line. VDM was played in that role but he is as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

You just admitted 1 was wrong, West averages .3 more contested marks and .3 more marks inside 50.

 

[Mofra]

1 Haven't seen it with Scott and Garcia, never seen them shirk but they aren't brutal at the ball.

Scott is acceptable, but I have to disagree with Garcia there - he's hard as a cat's head. I do worry about whether his body will let him play out a full season.

If we're comparing the two - I prefer Scott on a wing, at HF or closer to goal I prefer Garcia.

 

[TiAn_]

6 in 14 games means it isn't a strong point for him either which was the point.

Objectively perhaps, but 6 is the third most for any sub 190cm player at the club after Weightman and Williams (1 more in 7 more games) and equal to Garcia, Scott, Vandermeer, McNeil, McComb and Johannisen combined (67 games).

It’s clearly a strong point compared to the other smalls you’re comparing him to.

 

[doggies ftw]

(TLDR: our forward structure against Freo was designed entirely to protect our defence. Just a few key personnel changes in our backline next year would increase trust in our defence to hold up under pressure, and give us more freedom to implement a forward structure designed to kick goals.)


It was interesting hearing Bevo mention multiple times in his presser after the final that we planned to avoid kicking inside 50 'across the face of goal', and the players went away from that in the second half. The idea no doubt being that it's much easier to defend a turnover near the boundary line than in the middle of the ground. But setting your attacking structure purely to protect your backline is an extremely defensive mindset that might go some way to explaining our forward line's struggles on Saturday (and perhaps at other times during the season?).

If you go back and watch the first quarter, every single one of our scores did indeed come from an entry from one of the flanks, and aside from a couple of times where we were close enough to kick it to the top of the square, the kicks went to the pockets. It makes sense – the possible outcomes to a deep kick to the pocket are:

1. We take a mark or get the crumbs and get a shot at goal - happened lots in the first quarter.
2. We force a stoppage and use our superiority there to manufacture a shot.
3. Freo get the ball back deep in their defensive pocket and we can press up and defend a much smaller section of the ground and trap it there.

There are obviously problems too though. First, any shots you get from a pocket are going to be tougher – probably explains some of our poor accuracy. Second, there's not much room for effective leading or any kind of forward structure when the tactic is to bomb the ball to a pocket. Not surprised at all JUH in particular struggled given that.

And you can't really blame the coaches for implementing this strategy when our backline has consistently been so vulnerable when defending on the turnover. Perfect example: Freo's first goal came when Rourke gave away a free on our forward 50 line, close to the centre - Freo rebounded quickly, found Walters and Richards in a 1v1 where Richards panicked and gave away a free.

More broadly, in almost all of our highest scoring games this year, the opposition have also kicked big scores. We've been incapable all year of playing attacking footy without leaking goals badly. All of our backline players have had issues defending 1v1 at different times, and none are anywhere near the elite interceptors that other clubs have.

Which is all to say, I wonder if it might only take 2 or 3 personnel changes in defence for us to come out a very different team in 2023. We need a number 1 key defender we can rely on when exposed against the best key forwards - Liam Jones was the best 1v1 defender in the league the last 2 seasons he played. We need an elite interceptor - or Keath playing 3rd tall at his best form and fitness. And we need a small defender who we can trust to defend against the Walters and Camerons and Boltons of the league - a Duryea with less injuries.

It's quite the shopping list, but if we get that in place we can actually trust our defence to withstand a lot more pressure, and can therefore start thinking about an attacking structure that isn't designed purely to protect our backline.

Very good post - to go further than just our entries there’s been a clear direction to move away from quick ball movement through the corridor this year to more of a stagnant stop & kick around the boundary style, usually ending with a down the line dump kick.

You’re probably correct in that this is designed to protect our backline, the problem is it hasn’t done enough to protect our backline whilst also hampering our strengths. I feel wed have done better if we just went guns to the wall attack - I mean the best form of defence is offence after all.

But you could be right in that a few changes to personnel & system defensively could be all it takes to turn our form around across the field

 

[Foxman98]

Objectively perhaps, but 6 is the third most for any sub 190cm player at the club after Weightman and Williams (1 more in 7 more games) and equal to Garcia, Scott, Vandermeer, McNeil, McComb and Johannisen combined (67 games).

It’s clearly a strong point compared to the other smalls you’re comparing him to.

But is he or they for that matter in the team to provide that? Again I wasn't arguing who is the better overall mark, The response was comparing West to Scott and Garcia and was suggesting he is leaps and bounds ahead in the area which he isn't as he only goes at 1 just over every 2 games.

 

[Bald]

Conflicting reports today - some saying he's gone.
Jon Ralph:

Was a cut off of characters in his tweet. He meant to write out of contract.

 

[TiAn_]

But is he or they for that matter in the team to provide that? Again I wasn't arguing who is the better overall mark, The response was comparing West to Scott and Garcia and was suggesting he is leaps and bounds ahead in the area which he isn't as he only goes at 1 just over every 2 games.

I don't think you can discount 1 every 2 games when the 6 players he's competing with in that role combine to go at 1 every 11 games.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

His manager made a comment before the season started that English was looking forward to having more of a ruck role. Somehow people on here have turned it into English demanding he play in the ruck. It is not true. But I stand to be corrected if can provide the quote from English where he says he wants to only play in the ruck.

It might be overstated but must be some truth to it (at least as Tim's preference). In a press conference (think it was after a game early this year) Bevo made a comment similar to: Tim has expressed a desire to cement himself as a Number 1 ruck so we need to work with that too. From memory it was in response to being asked about our tall forward options. That press comment has been noted on here and discussed before.

 

[Foxman98]

I don't think you can discount 1 every 2 games when the 6 players he's competing with in that role combine to go at 1 every 11 games.

I think you can when its not really a relevant stat for their position.

 

[NBates]

Nothing in Dunks' demeanour, body language or onfield performance that tells me he wants out.

The tears in the rooms after the game suggest, to me, that he wants to stay but is being pressured by "others" to take the offer from the highest bidder. Genuinely conflicted.

Hoping he goes with his own preference, which I believe is to stay. That would be Adz's preference, too...

After Granty knocked back Port's offer in '96, Rick Kennedy said he believed Chris would have "died as a footballer", had he left, that big money doesn't mean you're going to play with passion.

Just my hunch on this, but I believe this could also be the case with Dunks.

I hope you're right, but I'm preparing myself because he would have signed on like everyone else during the season.

Using another poster's idea, maybe we could sit Dunks in a chair, eyelids clamped open clockwork orange style and play him "Never Tear Us Apart" over & over again while watching these flick from one to another:

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Nothing in Dunks' demeanour, body language or onfield performance that tells me he wants out.

The tears in the rooms after the game suggest, to me, that he wants to stay but is being pressured by "others" to take the offer from the highest bidder. Genuinely conflicted.

Hoping he goes with his own preference, which I believe is to stay. That would be Adz's preference, too...

After Granty knocked back Port's offer in '96, Rick Kennedy said he believed Chris would have "died as a footballer", had he left, that big money doesn't mean you're going to play with passion.

Just my hunch on this, but I believe this could also be the case with Dunks.

Surely he has more to lose than gain by disappearing into the oblivion of an SA club.

And he’d have to put up with Kochie

 

[TiAn_]

I think you can when its not really a relevant stat for their position.

C’mon mate you can’t just decide that “marking” is irrelevant to small forwards because it doesn’t suit you, after you put forward the opinion that they were all roughly equal based on stats when the stats don’t bear that out. I’ve also watched the games and it’s a good string to West’s bow and a potential point of difference to the other options.

Tackling is undeniably relevant to the small forward role and West is streets ahead of Garcia there, perhaps even more than his marking. Almost to the point it renders a lot of the other angles to the argument moot, given they’re otherwise not dramatically different.

 

[Mofra]

Surely he has more to lose than gain by disappearing into the oblivion of an SA club.

And he’d have to put up with Kochie

Not sure players deal with board members very often, let alone club presidents.
Even coaches have limited time with individual players and often require line coaches to do most of the one on one work

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Not sure players deal with board members very often, let alone club presidents.
Even coaches have limited time with individual players and often require line coaches to do most of the one on one work

It was a tongue-in-cheek afterthought .
But still…

 

[Mofra]

Melican from the Swans 'gettable' - if we remove FS romance, he's a significant upgrade on Cordy as a backman.
Similar height but much stronger and has always presented as an 'honest' player who just does all the basics right. Don't think there would be much cost either.

 

[Bald]

Melican from the Swans 'gettable' - if we remove FS romance, he's a significant upgrade on Cordy as a backman.
Similar height but much stronger and has always presented as an 'honest' player who just does all the basics right. Don't think there would be much cost either.

What sort of player is Melican? If he’s stronger than Cordy is he able to play a one on one defensive role or still a bit too small?

 

[ReservoirDog]

I don't see how Lobb improves the list. It's got a Jade Rawlings

Jade Rawlings

Age

47

Ht

196cm

Wt

97kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

8.7

3star

HB

4.2

3star

M

5.9

5star

T

0.8

3star

G

0.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

4.6

1star

K

3.8

2star

HB

0.8

1star

M

2.6

3star

T

0.4

3star

G

1.8

5star

vibe written all over it.