Saints News Saints appoint list management team

[marcmurphy3]

For all the external criticism of SOS he does several things very well. Great negotiator at the trade table and creative. Great at salary cap management. Great at strategically building a list with the right types of players in the right age profiles.

What he isnt good at is talent selection. If his new role leaves that to others and lets him play to his strengths he will be a good get.

 

[Sully111]

I can't see Sos pulling his head in when it comes to talent selection. Too big an ego.

Not loving the appointment.

 

[gringo2011]

Does this guy actually have a good record. It sounds nice and all that but I’m not so sure. I also think we need to seperate list manager from recruiting manager. For example SOS would have done that silly deal for stocker when Carlton got him but the recruiting manager would have said Walsh is the best player in the draft. And I’m defence of SOS the same recruiting manager would have been giving stocker a leg up. Still it was not up to that person to trade picks. That is the list manager.

Yep the head recruiter would have been pumping Stocker up or the trade wouldn't have got done. SOS sold Bryce Gibbs for a king's ransom but paid too much for a bunch of GWS rejects, he's hit and miss like most of them. The biggest issue with SOS is how much influence Lyon might have over him. Perhaps why Gubby is getting a role.

 

[plugger66]

This sets out some of the roles of the list manager.

When list manager is the AFL's most important job

It's known as the "silly season" or "meat market", when 18 AFL clubs trade draft picks and players to build new hope for a new football season. It's also a time when one club official becomes the most important person in the game, writes Michelangelo Rucci.

indaily.com.au

Seems as most of us would know they aren’t picking kids at the draft but they may set up our picks so we get good pick numbers to get kids at the draft. I’m pretty sure Matthew drain was our list manager for a while and I’m nearly certain he didn’t have a great record of managing the salary cap. It’s certainly a role that could be done from another state but probably better to be in the same state.

 

[plugger66]

I can't see Sos pulling his head in when it comes to talent selection. Too big an ego.

Not loving the appointment.

There is no way he will be involved in talent selection unless it’s a trade.

 

[gringo2011]

I can't see Sos pulling his head in when it comes to talent selection. Too big an ego.

Not loving the appointment.

His role is more structural and chasing existing talent. Toce is selecting talent from the draft. He still needs to be allowed picks to use though.

If Lyon wants to get hold of a player like McKay next year it will be up to Gubby an SOS to go and sell him a vision of the Ross Lyon Saints and work out who we could let go it we took him and what value that that might get us back. Perhaps it's identifying holes in the list like a second KPF or ahigh impact small forward. The role is about working out what we need in the future and working to achieve it.

 

[plugger66]

Yep the head recruiter would have been pumping Stocker up or the trade wouldn't have got done. SOS sold Bryce Gibbs for a king's ransom but paid too much for a bunch of GWS rejects, he's hit and miss like most of them. The biggest issue with SOS is how much influence Lyon might have over him. Perhaps why Gubby is getting a role.

I think all great coaches get the men around them that they want. At the moment I’ve been told Lyon is genuinely a changed man and happy to outsource which he didn’t do the first time around. Let’s see how that goes after a bad loss.

 

[plugger66]

After thinking about this appointment anything that gets jo Bailey around the club can only be a positive.

 

[phantom13]

This sets out some of the roles of the list manager.

When list manager is the AFL's most important job

It's known as the "silly season" or "meat market", when 18 AFL clubs trade draft picks and players to build new hope for a new football season. It's also a time when one club official becomes the most important person in the game, writes Michelangelo Rucci.

indaily.com.au

Salary cap - check
Recruitment - check
Drafting and retention - check

 

[stavro#4]

Not exactly overjoyed with this but we probably didn't have much choice in the end.
In light of Gubby's new appointment I don't really understand why Gags couldn't have managed the TPP from SA. We might find ourselves regretting that move in a few years but we just gotta hope that Walsh has it under control.

Gubby has been doing that role for us without title for a few years now.

 

[Sully111]

There is no way he will be involved in talent selection unless it’s a trade.

You don't know that.

You can say it with as much authority as you like, it doesn't mean anything.

 

[stavro#4]

You don't know that.

You can say it with as much authority as you like, it doesn't mean anything.

in the interview i posted where he talks about his time at Carlton a year later.

he keeps referring to everything as being done by committee.

 

[plugger66]

You don't know that.

You can say it with as much authority as you like, it doesn't mean anything.

No I don’t know that. I’d say nearly everyone on here guesses but there are guesses that makes sense and some that don’t. SOS isn’t going to have time to see kids play enough under 18 games to have the final opinion. That’s not what a list manager does. They will give the recruiting department the type we need but no way will a name be attached. You could be right it doesn’t mean anything when I say it with authority but given what gringo posted it seems that isn’t really the role of a list manager. I suppose deciding his ego is much easier to say if you know him. I don’t so I will go with what I believe his role is. You obviously do so you can go with your opinion. It’s no big deal

 

[stavro#4]

 

[gringo2011]

Salary cap - check
Recruitment - check
Drafting and retention - check

List architect, future planning, covering holes in both depth and best 22 which would include developing players to take over later. Working out where the list is at and how to move it closer to a premiership or maintain a challenge list etc. There are heaps of parts to it. I think Gags definitely got marked down for overrating where the list was at and paying up big for players that had minimal impact on field. Outside the salary cap it's the biggest sin for a list manager.

 

[plugger66]

List architect, future planning, covering holes in both depth and best 22 which would include developing players to take over later. Working out where the list is at and how to move it closer to a premiership or maintain a challenge list etc. There are heaps of parts to it. I think Gags definitely got marked down for overrating where the list was at and paying up big for players that had minimal impact on field. Outside the salary cap it's the biggest sin for a list manager.

We obviously overpaid some players from other clubs but when you were and still are a nobody club that’s your lot in life. Plenty on here said we never get biggish name players from other clubs which was completely true so we went out and got some. At least he always got the type we needed if not the right player we needed. Needed a winger. Got hill. Needed a full back. Got Howard. Needed a big bodied med. got crouch. Needed a mature ruck. Got Ryder. Needed leadership. Got hanners. All made sense at the time.

 

[gringo2011]

We obviously overpaid some players from other clubs but when you were and still are a nobody club that’s your lot in life. Plenty on here said we never get biggish name players from other clubs which was completely true so we went out and got some. At least he always got the type we needed if not the right player we needed. Needed a winger. Got hill. Needed a full back. Got Howard. Needed a big bodied med. got crouch. Needed a mature ruck. Got Ryder. Needed leadership. Got hanners. All made sense at the time.

Probably should have drafted hard then and started decorating the cake with ring ins once the bedrock was formed. Pretty sure the club would have pressured him to try to move quickly after being such a long time out of finals though.

As they say, overrating where your list is at is the greatest stuff-up in footy. We'd blown a rebuild but doubled down on it instead of trying to do it better a second time. A big part of our long term strategy failure has been an inability to find high end talent. Instead of hitting the draft we chased bulk GOPs from other clubs which is precisely what not to do.

 

[stavro#4]

List architect, future planning, covering holes in both depth and best 22 which would include developing players to take over later. Working out where the list is at and how to move it closer to a premiership or maintain a challenge list etc. There are heaps of parts to it. I think Gags definitely got marked down for overrating where the list was at and paying up big for players that had minimal impact on field. Outside the salary cap it's the biggest sin for a list manager.

the job is primarily setting the vision (winning the flag)

1. then outlining how we go about that (picks/player trades)
2. managing the cap to ensure there is room for your goal
3. ensuring that the levers are pulled between draft and established recruitment (do we go to the draft? if so how heavily are we investing? do we go after established talent? who and why?)

The list manager would then need to work directly with key stakeholders to ensure everyone is aligned

1. Coach (RTB) + to an extent coaching staff
2. Gm of Football (Walsh)
3. Head of talent & acquisition (Gubby)
4. National Recruiting Manager (toce) + assistant (roughy)

 

[plugger66]

Probably should have drafted hard then and started decorating the cake with ring ins once the bedrock was formed. Pretty sure the club would have pressured him to try to move quickly after being such a long time out of finals though.

As they say, overrating where your list is at is the greatest stuff-up in footy. We'd blown a rebuild but doubled down on it instead of trying to do it better a second time. A big part of our long term strategy failure has been an inability to find high end talent. Instead of hitting the draft we chased bulk GOPs from other clubs which is precisely what not to do.

The only pick we really lost was hills. The others were not high picks or the deals were pretty good for us. Why would you trust drafting as the way to go anyway. We haven’t actually stared at that. And not only did the club probably overrate the list the club had to be seen to be doing something for the supporters. And it depends what you call a gop. Hill won a best and fairest and was a 3 time premiership play. Hanners had a fantastic record. Crouch had been a very good player for a while. Ryder was a short term fix that was a clear winner and Howard was vital to our structure and certainly still is.

 

[stavro#4]

For all the external criticism of SOS he does several things very well. Great negotiator at the trade table and creative. Great at salary cap management. Great at strategically building a list with the right types of players in the right age profiles.

What he isnt good at is talent selection. If his new role leaves that to others and lets him play to his strengths he will be a good get.

Hits: Weitering Curnow Mckay Walsh Fisher Jsos TDK Kennedy
Misses: SPS Dow Obrien Stocker Mcgovern


it doesnt look too bad.

broad view, bolded are stars of the game.

the misses are high picks - but upon review.

simpkin best player taken after SPS - 6 picks later



Dow hurts as LDU is a stud. Obrien not so much. Bailey was 5 picks later.


stocker pick only bad because of what you gave up. Absolutely nothing missed out on after him



Kemp could be on the bust list. I was high on him - injuries havent helped. 2 after him are guns though.

 

[plugger66]

Hits: Weitering Curnow Mckay Walsh Fisher Jsos TDK Kennedy
Misses: SPS Dow Obrien Stocker Mcgovern


it doesnt look too bad.

broad view, bolded are stars of the game.

the misses are high picks - but upon review.

simpkin best player taken after SPS - 6 picks later

View attachment 1594663

Dow hurts as LDU is a stud. Obrien not so much. Bailey was 5 picks later.
View attachment 1594667

stocker pick only bad because of what you gave up. Absolutely nothing missed out on after him

View attachment 1594671

Kemp could be on the bust list. I was high on him - injuries havent helped. 2 after him are guns though.

View attachment 1594672

Are they really hits or misses from a list manager. Surely that’s the recruiting guy. Obviously the list manger gets involved with the type needed long term. Agree with stocker being his pick though because he traded to get him but again that would have been done after listening to the recruiting guy. If trades got some of those kids then that is a win to the list manager.

 

[stavro#4]

Are they really hits or misses from a list manager. Surely that’s the recruiting guy. Obviously the list manger gets involved with the type needed long term. Agree with stocker being his pick though because he traded to get him but again that would have been done after listening to the recruiting guy. If trades got some of those kids then that is a win to the list manager.

i believe ultimately pick or trade - the list manager is responsible.

its the easiest way to argue success or failure.

 

[pebblesofsand]

View attachment 1594640

2018 job description for Gallaghers position which it now appears to require two people (old mates?) to do the same role.

And funnily enough, both of whom have been in List Management roles at clubs who have ended up with significant salary cap issues.

 

[stavro#4]

2018 job description for Gallaghers position which it now appears to require two people (old mates?) to do the same role.

And funnily enough, both of whom have been in List Management roles at clubs who have ended up with significant salary cap issues.

What salary cap issues have Carlton had under SOS?

 

[plugger66]

i believe ultimately pick or trade - the list manager is responsible.

its the easiest way to argue success or failure.

It maybe the easiest and he is the recruiting guys boss but it’s not really the reality. The list manager cannot see these guys play enough to make an informed decision. What he certainly should do is telling the recruiting guys the type needed and if a recruiter says we need more picks then that is the list managers responsibility. They must work completely together. If for example toce had two poor drafts with 2 different list managers then surely the problem is toce not the new list manager.