List Mgmt. 2015 Draft Thread - Pre-Season & Rookie Draft Friday 11:00am AEDT

[RockJobster0312]

I think you are missing the point and overrating our back line. You seem to infer our back line can be solved by one player as a final solution and its all ticked off and appear to be anchored by a back line currently operating through Chaplin's involvement as adequate in terms of set-up. This is far from our premiership requirements IMO. I see the current setup as purely stop gap and ineffective against better forward structures. I see Collins as simply stage one in a two part recruitment strategy. The bigger forwards you speak of will not be addressed till later with another recruit or recruits which boost our KPF set ups as well. In the meantime one can play Astbury and Chaplin in the side as well.

There also seems to be a short term focus on next year which is unrealistic as we do not have the team to be in contention yet. We have not picked up our doozies yet so why fuss over the realities in 2016? Having said that physically I think Collins is more mature than Lever despite his age and could easily make an immediate impact not to mention releasing Rance into other roles. Eg ATM our only FB option is Rance why reduces our flexibility.

194 cm is a superior height than 197cm and above as a KPP generally however the fact Collins has good agility makes him relevant on the smaller types and therefore effective. The pedigree of the player and his movement is critical IMO

I don't disagree that Chaplain has a lot of holes in his game. But I also see that he brings some traits that help others in our backline. Could we do better and should we do better - I think we should. I just don't see a rookie, even one as physically gifted as Collins is as being able to hold down, week-in-week-out a first or even second key forward. Your looking at a McCarty or Patton from GWS. A Dixon for Port. A Jenkins from Adelaide. A roughead or Gunston from Hawthorn. These types (and I could go on).

Historically speaking, it requires more than a few years in the system to be a capable key defender. Rance and to a lesser extent Hurley are cases on point. McKenzie and Talia are others. All of which showed ability as Collins does, but they needed time to go into that role.

Lever has been the example thrown about, but again I say he's a third or fourth tall. He shown some capability in his draft year/ before (due to ACL injury) to push up the ground into the midfield.

We have Astbury (we tend to forget how good he was prior to the game in 2014 v Melbourne) and Elton who has better physical attributes than Collins does.

Again, Im not saying stay well away from this kid because with time I think he will be very very good. I just don't think its realistic to expect him to be good enough to hold down a key defender role for 23 games plus a year i a side that has top 4 ambitions from here on out.

 

[weekesy]

Gresham I think will be a bust. Doesn't have any elite traits and his kicking is below average


Sent from my iPhone

Your opinion i guess.
But not sure how you arrived at "doesnt have any elite traits" ? ?

Ran a 14.1 in the beep
only 1 or 4 players to get a perfect goal kicking score
Avg 30 touches in TAC
TAC All Aus
I think he'll work out just fine.

 

[Accepted 04]

Your opinion i guess.
But not sure how you arrived at "doesnt have any elite traits" ? ?

Ran a 14.1 in the beep
only 1 or 4 players to get a perfect goal kicking score
Avg 30 touches in TAC
TAC All Aus
I think he'll work out just fine.

I believe he will end up a Lewis Taylor type. Looks flashy but no impact on the game


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Mr Magic]

I don't disagree that Chaplain has a lot of holes in his game. But I also see that he brings some traits that help others in our backline. Could we do better and should we do better - I think we should. I just don't see a rookie, even one as physically gifted as Collins is as being able to hold down, week-in-week-out a first or even second key forward. Your looking at a McCarty or Patton from GWS. A Dixon for Port. A Jenkins from Adelaide. A roughead or Gunston from Hawthorn. These types (and I could go on).

Historically speaking, it requires more than a few years in the system to be a capable key defender. Rance and to a lesser extent Hurley are cases on point. McKenzie and Talia are others. All of which showed ability as Collins does, but they needed time to go into that role.

Lever has been the example thrown about, but again I say he's a third or fourth tall. He shown some capability in his draft year/ before (due to ACL injury) to push up the ground into the midfield.

We have Astbury (we tend to forget how good he was prior to the game in 2014 v Melbourne) and Elton who has better physical attributes than Collins does.

Again, Im not saying stay well away from this kid because with time I think he will be very very good. I just don't think its realistic to expect him to be good enough to hold down a key defender role for 23 games plus a year i a side that has top 4 ambitions from here on out.

I am not talking about ambition. I am talking about reality IMO. How can we make top 4 without one new doozy yet?

Seriously again our focus needs to be on premierships not top 4. One should not put the cart before the horse.

Why does Elton have better physical attributes? Elton is less agile and arguably a worse kick. He also arguably less effective in one on ones like Chaplin compared to Collins. Apparently Collins is a better reader and interceptor of the ball that helps ease the burden off Rance and allows him a breather and stick to his man more.

Why could Collins not play on Roughead and Guns ton? He would be more effective than Chaplin IMO. Astbury or Griffith's or even Rance can help with Patton, Dixon and Jenkins and frankly I think Collins could stop McCarthy.

 

[weekesy]

I believe he will end up a Lewis Taylor type. Looks flashy but no impact on the game


Sent from my iPhone

The same Lewis Taylor that won the Rising Star award?
I think sometimes we expect too much from 19/20 yr old. His impact on games will increase and I'm sure by 22/23 yrs old LT will be a very good player. Difficult to impact the game when your team is playing terrible for 75% of the season.

Brett Anderson's final rankings. Has Gresham at 8.
http://www.sen.com.au/news/11-15/bretts-final-2015-afl-draft-big-board#U3dDq7qF9i3Z1sFi.97

 

[richoatthedisco]

If we don't think the mids at our pick are elite, I'd go for one of the McKay twins before Collins.

 

[RockJobster0312]

I am not talking about ambition. I am talking about reality IMO. How can we make top 4 without one new doozy yet?

Who says we can't? Who says the internal development over a myriad of players (certainly there are enough young players on our list for such improvement) can push us into a top 4 position. After a poor start we were a kick from finishing top 4. Hawthorn and Sydney lost key players and Fremantle are aging. Furthermore a 'doozy' can be attained in one off season. Development occurs over a longer period of time.

Seriously again our focus needs to be on premierships not top 4. One should not put the cart before the horse.

History will tell you that you don't win a premiership unless you're top 4. Id say that seeking a top 4 berth as a precursor for a premiership is exactly putting the horse before the cart.

Why does Elton have better physical attributes? Elton is less agile and arguably a worse kick. He also arguably less effective in one on ones like Chaplin compared to Collins. Apparently Collins is a better reader and interceptor of the ball that helps ease the burden off Rance and allows him a breather and stick to his man more.

Elton is taller and bigger. Also Collins has only played at under 18 level where he would be more dominant purely because he's physically more developed. Also kicking is a skill as opposed to a physical attribute (being picky I know).

All the attributes that are on Collins as a young defender are almost exactly the same as Rance in his draft year. If my memory serves he was rated the best key back in his draft class and it still took him a few years to develop.

Why could Collins not play on Roughead and Guns ton? He would be more effective than Chaplin IMO. Astbury or Griffith's or even Rance can help with Patton, Dixon and Jenkins and frankly I think Collins could stop McCarthy.

Its all speculative obviously, but we are talking about a rookie being able to stop a players better than a 10+ year veteran. I personally don't see that happening. I don't see it happening for a few years to be honest. Again not saying it cant or wont, just dont think it will.

IMO I think a replacement for Chaplain is better found from either within the club (Astbury or Elton) or from a trade/ free agency signing of an experienced player.

Other argument I would make re Chaplain is that I believe that the backline/ forward line/ midfield whatever is bigger than the sum of its parts. Chaplain in isolation is a poor defender. But his ability to communicate and provide at least some body to body contact allows Rance to do what he does. Rance himself has said that. He has said the same thing about Grimes and Vlastuin and has more than once credited his personal success to the help of others.

Could Collins come in and pick up the nuances of being able to match a Hawkins or Cloke or Dixon or any other body to body from round 1? Could he pick up the speed of AFL football from round 1? Can he pick up the communication essentials of AFL football in such a fast pace environment from round 1? Does he have the skill level and understanding to deal with complex defensive structures from round 1?

Maybe he does. Maybe he doesn't. My opinion is that Id be happy to get him, but I wouldn't expect him to play - maybe not at all - year 1 (for us) and then it would take him a few years to develop the small aspect required to play impactful AFL football week after week in a key position post. If thats the case I think there are other avenues out there to satisfy a second tall defender IF it is deemed a requirement.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Won't be for much longer if he keeps posting videos like these online

He is an absolute jet, and I would be GUTTED to lose him.

 

[Tango67]

our backline was very good this year and kept us in games so it's not a weakness adding Yarran gives us more rebound and offense

our midfield won us games but lost us games if left unchecked we have a good offensive midfield but tighten the screws and lock us down and we struggle we need more class in the middle

our fwd line is the weakest link, we don't kick enough goals and rely on too few. this is a combination of our setup and our talent

jack, Vickery, Martin, Deledio and Lennon is a classy fwd line just need another classy fwd and a better system

 

[Bobsleder]

Champion data top 30 draft picks is out today and makes interesting reading.

Burton rated 8th - so interested to see where he goes, given the medical issues. Hopefully us.

Re Collins, wouldn't mind him either, not so he plays next year, but for the next ten years after that. Astbury and Elton, can't rely on them two to be the future and Chaplin is nearing the end. So grab a KPD and give him time to develop. If either Astbury or Elton come on, then you have good depth.

 

[Mr Magic]

Who says we can't? Who says the internal development over a myriad of players (certainly there are enough young players on our list for such improvement) can push us into a top 4 position. After a poor start we were a kick from finishing top 4. Hawthorn and Sydney lost key players and Fremantle are aging. Furthermore a 'doozy' can be attained in one off season. Development occurs over a longer period of time.



History will tell you that you don't win a premiership unless you're top 4. Id say that seeking a top 4 berth as a precursor for a premiership is exactly putting the horse before the cart.



Elton is taller and bigger. Also Collins has only played at under 18 level where he would be more dominant purely because he's physically more developed. Also kicking is a skill as opposed to a physical attribute (being picky I know).

All the attributes that are on Collins as a young defender are almost exactly the same as Rance in his draft year. If my memory serves he was rated the best key back in his draft class and it still took him a few years to develop.



Its all speculative obviously, but we are talking about a rookie being able to stop a players better than a 10+ year veteran. I personally don't see that happening. I don't see it happening for a few years to be honest. Again not saying it cant or wont, just dont think it will.

IMO I think a replacement for Chaplain is better found from either within the club (Astbury or Elton) or from a trade/ free agency signing of an experienced player.

Other argument I would make re Chaplain is that I believe that the backline/ forward line/ midfield whatever is bigger than the sum of its parts. Chaplain in isolation is a poor defender. But his ability to communicate and provide at least some body to body contact allows Rance to do what he does. Rance himself has said that. He has said the same thing about Grimes and Vlastuin and has more than once credited his personal success to the help of others.

Could Collins come in and pick up the nuances of being able to match a Hawkins or Cloke or Dixon or any other body to body from round 1? Could he pick up the speed of AFL football from round 1? Can he pick up the communication essentials of AFL football in such a fast pace environment from round 1? Does he have the skill level and understanding to deal with complex defensive structures from round 1?

Maybe he does. Maybe he doesn't. My opinion is that Id be happy to get him, but I wouldn't expect him to play - maybe not at all - year 1 (for us) and then it would take him a few years to develop the small aspect required to play impactful AFL football week after week in a key position post. If thats the case I think there are other avenues out there to satisfy a second tall defender IF it is deemed a requirement.

Well this is easy to argue against.

For starters you say Elton is taller and Bigger. I say Collins is shorter and smaller and therefore Collins is better apart from the rest. The only reason Elton could be better is if he is higher quality and form and pedigree suggests otherwise. The fact is Collins has very good mass and Elon's height is against him. Elton is not of the quality of Griffiths who can ruck and go forward effectively to. Big difference. How tall was plugger, Reiwoldt, Roughead???

First of all top 4 is not a goal. Top 4 means nothing. Top 4 is just a station one passes on the way to a premiership if one is lucky, top 4 is a sideshow, and has no inherent value whatsoever except for average types needing a bit of extra experience who lack the talent to win from the get go.

As far as body on body goes for Chaplin that has been the subject of jokes by other posters of RFC supporters on bigfooty. As far as communication goes that is called politics/campaigner and frankly is a great indication something is off out of kilter holding RFC back IMO.

Rance is not really like Collins. Rance was still developing, still arguably unbalanced and needed to be matured in the body. Why do you think Hawthorn focused on the now could be eyeing Collins as an option?? Rookie is ridiculous, it depends on the quality as Fletcher in the baby bombers shows age is not barrier if you are good enough!!

History says you can win premierships outside top 4 and history says defenders of Elton's height compared to Collin's height rarely succeed!!

Finally the bigfooty posters where talking up the importance of the doozy, where we not looking at Treloar etc??

As for internal development, of course that can happen but history suggests it comes from drafting or trades with the Swans as well as Hawthorn and we hardly are a beacon for predominant reliance on internal development. Even Collingwood have been off loading players for draft picks in recent years despite the state of the art centre blah blah with the bells and whistles!!

 

[UpTheGuts]

Well this is easy to argue against.

For starters you say Elton is taller and Bigger. I say Collins is shorter and smaller and therefore Collins is better apart from the rest. The only reason Elton could be better is if he is higher quality and form and pedigree suggests otherwise. The fact is Collins has very good mass and Elon's height is against him. Elton is not of the quality of Griffiths who can ruck and go forward effectively to. Big difference. How tall was plugger, Reiwoldt, Roughead???

First of all top 4 is not a goal. Top 4 means nothing. Top 4 is just a station one passes on the way to a premiership if one is lucky, top 4 is a sideshow, and has no inherent value whatsoever except for average types needing a bit of extra experience who lack the talent to win from the get go.

i reckon Top 4 is pretty important. But that's just me.

 

[Mr Magic]

i reckon Top 4 is pretty important. But that's just me.

I would rather the wooden spoon than top 4.

See Rousey, if your not first your last!!

 

[Tango67]

what are the stats of a team winning the GF that finished outside the top 4?
I'd say that would be a good indication of its importance

 

[UpTheGuts]

I would rather the wooden spoon than top 4.

See Rousey, if your not first your last!!

Finishing top 4 after H&A though is surely a legitimate goal and provides the best launching pad for a flag assault (other than top 2)?

 

[Mr Magic]

Finishing top 4 after H&A though is surely a legitimate goal and provides the best launching pad for a flag assault (other than top 2)?

Finishing 4 means nothing except for amateurs seeking confidence

 

[RockJobster0312]

For starters you say Elton is taller and Bigger. I say Collins is shorter and smaller and therefore Collins is better apart from the rest. The only reason Elton could be better is if he is higher quality and form and pedigree suggests otherwise. The fact is Collins has very good mass and Elon's height is against him. Elton is not of the quality of Griffiths who can ruck and go forward effectively to. Big difference. How tall was plugger, Reiwoldt, Roughead???

How tall is Dixon, Tippet, Jenkins, Moore, Boyd? It's the new breed of forward, 200/ 100s.

You suggest form and pedigree but your using it against a player who has played zero AFL games. Also I am unsure why you want a key back to go forward and ruck? Remember Elton started as a forward and was drafted as a ruckman (played ruck his junior career). But notwithstanding that, I cannot see Collins doing either.

First of all top 4 is not a goal. Top 4 means nothing. Top 4 is just a station one passes on the way to a premiership if one is lucky, top 4 is a sideshow, and has no inherent value whatsoever except for average types needing a bit of extra experience who lack the talent to win from the get go.

Can you only have one goal per season? You can't have multiple goals? Its not as if finishing top 4 and winning a premiership are opposing perogatives.

To win a premiership its all about a process. The great coaches in every sport mention the process. John Wooden - College Hoops. Nick Saban - College Football. Pete Carroll/ Vincent Lombardi - NFL. Greg Poppovitch - NBA. Al Clarkson - AFL. Nothing is achieved in isolation and there is a process any individual/ team must go through to attain greatness.

As far as body on body goes for Chaplin that has been the subject of jokes by other posters of RFC supporters on bigfooty. As far as communication goes that is called politics/campaigner and frankly is a great indication something is off out of kilter holding RFC back IMO.

Ive been quite clear that I think we need to do better than Chaplain. And communication is absolutely massive in sports. Especially for a sport where zoning off, third man up and structures are so important. How do you think a team would go of they just ceased communicating. Listen to every coach in every sport and business. They all harp back on how important communication is. You can call it campaigning or politics or whatever you want, it doesn't change the fact that it is an absolute requirement in any walk of life - sport or otherwise to have success.

Rance is not really like Collins. Rance was still developing, still arguably unbalanced and needed to be matured in the body. Why do you think Hawthorn focused on the now could be eyeing Collins as an option?? Rookie is ridiculous, it depends on the quality as Fletcher in the baby bombers shows age is not barrier if you are good enough!!

And Collins is 100% developed right now? Hawthorn are looking at Collins because they just lost Lake and Gibson is 32 next year.

When was the last rookie to hold down a key position post - first or second key defender - in a top 4 side? A premiership side? Fletcher is the only example I can think of as you said. There is likely more I grant you but the weight of numbers is against it occurring.

History says you can win premierships outside top 4 and history says defenders of Elton's height compared to Collin's height rarely succeed!!

What history is that? No team for memory has done it in the current system. The last team did it was the Crows. And again, thats before the current season. I think the Crows are the only team in the AFL era.

History also says that once a guy who was the height and build of Dustin Martin could play CHF. Matter of fact in todays age to be considered a medium size defender you have to have physical attributes that mirror Royce Hart. The game is increasingly getting taller, bigger and quicker.

Finally the bigfooty posters where talking up the importance of the doozy, where we not looking at Treloar etc??

Sure. And there is no doubt that a 'doozy' would make us better, and a more lilely contender. But you seemed to suggest we cannot be a competitor or a top 4 chance until we sign a 'doozy'. I don't believe that. It may not be as likely but not impossible.

As for internal development, of course that can happen but history suggests it comes from drafting or trades with the Swans as well as Hawthorn and we hardly are a beacon for predominant reliance on internal development. Even Collingwood have been off loading players for draft picks in recent years despite the state of the art centre blah blah with the bells and whistles!!

West Coast were the minor premiers and made a grand final on the back of all their own players having their best careers to date. None of the draft picks played significant roles during the year.

Collingwood offloaded their picks for Treloar who is early 20s this year and had two first round picks in the last two years (Scharenberg and Freeman, De Goey and Moore).

 

[Frustrated Tiger]

Why you get into debate with Magic...?

 

[RockJobster0312]

Why you get into debate with Magic...?

Purely for like

 

[Mr Magic]

How tall is Dixon, Tippet, Jenkins, Moore, Boyd? It's the new breed of forward, 200/ 100s.

You suggest form and pedigree but your using it against a player who has played zero AFL games. Also I am unsure why you want a key back to go forward and ruck? Remember Elton started as a forward and was drafted as a ruckman (played ruck his junior career). But notwithstanding that, I cannot see Collins doing either.



Can you only have one goal per season? You can't have multiple goals? Its not as if finishing top 4 and winning a premiership are opposing perogatives.

To win a premiership its all about a process. The great coaches in every sport mention the process. John Wooden - College Hoops. Nick Saban - College Football. Pete Carroll/ Vincent Lombardi - NFL. Greg Poppovitch - NBA. Al Clarkson - AFL. Nothing is achieved in isolation and there is a process any individual/ team must go through to attain greatness.



Ive been quite clear that I think we need to do better than Chaplain. And communication is absolutely massive in sports. Especially for a sport where zoning off, third man up and structures are so important. How do you think a team would go of they just ceased communicating. Listen to every coach in every sport and business. They all harp back on how important communication is. You can call it campaigning or politics or whatever you want, it doesn't change the fact that it is an absolute requirement in any walk of life - sport or otherwise to have success.



And Collins is 100% developed right now? Hawthorn are looking at Collins because they just lost Lake and Gibson is 32 next year.

When was the last rookie to hold down a key position post - first or second key defender - in a top 4 side? A premiership side? Fletcher is the only example I can think of as you said. There is likely more I grant you but the weight of numbers is against it occurring.



What history is that? No team for memory has done it in the current system. The last team did it was the Crows. And again, thats before the current season. I think the Crows are the only team in the AFL era.

History also says that once a guy who was the height and build of Dustin Martin could play CHF. Matter of fact in todays age to be considered a medium size defender you have to have physical attributes that mirror Royce Hart. The game is increasingly getting taller, bigger and quicker.



Sure. And there is no doubt that a 'doozy' would make us better, and a more lilely contender. But you seemed to suggest we cannot be a competitor or a top 4 chance until we sign a 'doozy'. I don't believe that. It may not be as likely but not impossible.



West Coast were the minor premiers and made a grand final on the back of all their own players having their best careers to date. None of the draft picks played significant roles during the year.

Collingwood offloaded their picks for Treloar who is early 20s this year and had two first round picks in the last two years (Scharenberg and Freeman, De Goey and Moore).

I haven't got a lot of time but, Tippet, Moore, Jenkins, Boyd, Dixon are they any good? What makes you thing they are a new breed? How does Chaplin stop them and how is this relevant Collins? You talk about pedigree and AFL games what have these guys done. Hart won a premiership and how tall is J Cameron? If anything you are saying Chaplin can't stop these guys and needs a replacement like Collins who can play with a Griffths type to stop these forwards along with Grimes and Rance.

You are making the point indirectly Collins can play with a Elton or Griffiths or Astbury with Rance and Grimes against these forwards but Chaplin cannot because he is too big and immobile unlike Collins.

Since when does pedigree have anything to do with AFL games, please see Hodge Judd etc...


You have contradicted yourself!! How can it be about process when there is only one goal per season?

WOW, are Rance and Grimes and co mute??? Why would there be no communication if Chaplin was not there? Sounds like a scary problem IMO.

So what has changed again? Who said Dusty was not our best forward??

BTW, the only goal is towards winning a premiership and West Coast have not done that. Going on your new system history file its a pretty small sample susceptible to biases naturally.

Lockett still seems the best forward to me in any era, and Reiwoldt and Carey where not giants either. At the tall end in forwards Roughead suggest the best forwards/defenders are not giants either still no matter what the increasing height of mids suggest

 

[RobsJourney]

Its so hard to decide but ya know what, I say if Oliver is gone let's just go Ryan Clarke.

We say we need x-factor but the only likely choice is Ah Chee and I am still not keen on him. We have X factor with Deledio, Edwards and Lennon, Yarran will bring more, and I like to think playing one or all of Vlastuin, Townsend and Moore inside will bring some x-factor back into the games of Cotchin and Dusty.

So, Clarke would fill needs nicely. Big enough to play inside, but knows how to find the ball outside, is a natural leader and is a fantastic gut runner. A great fit for Richmond and will be a great player at AFL level.

 

[SumTingWong]

It's been like that for a long time trust me! Bad mistake from Luke- thankfully he hasn't uploaded anything for a while, so you can assume he noticed.

Doesn't really indicate much, just that we're looking at a few outside prospects...

Snoop Dog has us taking Ah Chee and Greg Clark with our 2 picks (with Dunkley a chance at our 2nd). I like it. I think Clark's ceiling could be quite high. What are your thoughts?

 

[Tango67]

I like Clarke but fear there is a bit of B.ellis in him and we only need 1 x B.Ellis both players run all day and both can get big stats due to their endurance but Ellis rarely kicks goals and doesn't really hurt you by foot or let me say isn't as damaging as he should be which is why I think he is a vanilla type, solid without having the overall class to be a gun. is Clarke the same?

what we don't have is an elite all round mid, we have good players with great traits ie speed, ball winning etc but all have a deficiency and only 2 of our mids in Cotchin and Deledio are worth tagging.

my assessment of the deficiency with our mids are as follows:
Cotchin - poor kicking for goal and general foot skills and can't break a tag should be a gun
Miles - poor foot skills and no pace doesn't get tagged at the bottom of every pack but doesn't hurt you by foot
Deledio - can't break a tag no other weakness
Martin - endurance, foot skills, decision making
Grigg - tackling, inside, disposal a link player only
Ellis - tackling, inside, disposal a link player
Conca - fitness and injury a B grader
Edwards - disposal by foot

our midfield seriously locks class by foot more so when Deledio and Martin play forward as both are really good players

we need an all round mid with class by foot who can be either inside or outside preferably with a bit of size

 

[weekesy]

So many opinions. great debate going on. Here is Champion Data's top 30.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl...s-top-30-players/story-e6frf3e3-1227609826103

 

[RockJobster0312]

I haven't got a lot of time but, Tippet, Moore, Jenkins, Boyd, Dixon are they any good? What makes you thing they are a new breed? How does Chaplin stop them and how is this relevant Collins? If anything you are saying Chaplin can't stop these guys and needs a replacement like Collins who can play with a Griffths type to stop these forwards along with Grimes and Rance.

You are making the point indirectly Collins can play with a Elton or Griffiths or Astbury with Rance and Grimes against these forwards but Chaplin cannot because he is too big and immobile unlike Collins.

So are you saying that a player who is 200/100 can't be good? They are the new breed by the sheer importance teams are putting on them through contracts (see Dixon and Tippet) or draft position (see Boyd, Moore and the two McKay brothers this year, as with Hipwood).

The point is that Collins is too undersized to take on these players. That has been a consistent point throughout. The difference between say Tippet and Collins is the same for Collins and Corey Ellis.

None of my points have indirectly stated what you did above.

Since when does pedigree have anything to do with AFL games, please see Hodge Judd

Im sorry but I still have zero idea what you mean by pedigree in relation to either Elton (as you originally presented) or Collins.

You have contradicted yourself!! How can it be about process when there is only one goal per season?

I was being sarcastic as your premise that the only thing that matters is a premiership and top 4 means nothing comment. My point being is that they are not mutually exclusive and form part of the same process. To mean finishing top 4 means nothing flies in the face of history. To further describe my point, I believe finishing in the top 4 is part of the process.

WOW, are Rance and Grimes and co mute??? Why would there be no communication if Chaplin was not there? Sounds like a scary problem IMO.

The point specifically in communication was due to the whole sum of the parts is greater argument. But specifically in relation to your point of campaigner/politics. I took it you were referring to the team as a whole. Not Chaplain specifically. If that was the case then fair enough.

So what has changed again? Who said Dusty was not our best forward??

Would have thought Riewoldt. But Im pretty sure that Lockett was 190+, same with Lloyd, Kennedy and Lance Franklin. Times they are a changing. That was my point.

BTW, the only goal is towards winning a premiership and West Coast have not done that. Going on your new system history file its a pretty small sample susceptible to biases naturally.

Like the Geelong teams? The first Hawthorn team? The Lions teams of the early 00s. Plenty of examples in recent history