List Mgmt. 2015 Trade, Draft, Rookie Draft and FA Megathread

[SaintWWodonga]

We gave BJ to the Dons and they gave up nothing.. Surely the can do the same for Carlise? We were nice, now it's their turn... ha ha!

 

[Rough_Edges]

Delaney unfortunately is decent back up but not up to it.

I think it's unfair that you make a comment like "he's not the messiah", again I don't think anyone said he was this.

I think anyone who saw him play footy in his 2nd and 3rd year would agree that he was showing the type of potential to become a very strong key defender as he developed.

He development has somewhat stagnated. He's been caught up in a terrible situation and due to a lack of forwards and an influx of defenders, has been thrown around a lot.

He is a clear, clear upgrade on Delaney (who couldn't get a game toward the back end of the year) and someone we can rely on for 6-7 year.

He's a good player as we sit. He has the potential to be very good. He fits a need for our team moving forward. He fits our list profile.

 

[Kilroy]

Here's a question for you all...

Carlisle, and pick 5 gone (to the Injectors or elswhere doesn't overly matter), or;

Pearce and keep it?

Mathieson and Pearce vs Carlisle and an Ah Chee/Gresham/Milera ?

Toss a coin.
Pearce, Ah Chee, Gresham and Milera are all indigenous. Would be great to get one of them IMO.

 

[Joffaboy]

Problem with harking back to two seasons ago is that Carlisle may never recapture that form. We all wired for Kosi to get back to 2005 form. Never happened. Corey McKenna was terrific for a couple of seasons then lost all form never to return.

Because he was good in 2013 doesn't mean he will be any good three years later.

 

[Rough_Edges]

Problem with harking back to two seasons ago is that Carlisle may never recapture that form. We all wired for Kosi to get back to 2005 form. Never happened. Corey McKenna was terrific for a couple of seasons then lost all form never to return.

Because he was good in 2013 doesn't mean he will be any good three years later.

Koschitzke crippled with injuries. Body gave up.

Carlisle still playing OK, club in shambles.

 

[plugger66]

Problem with harking back to two seasons ago is that Carlisle may never recapture that form. We all wired for Kosi to get back to 2005 form. Never happened. Corey McKenna was terrific for a couple of seasons then lost all form never to return.

Because he was good in 2013 doesn't mean he will be any good three years later.

True but injury stopped Kosi. Still one of the great mysteries what happened to McKernan. I think a lot of Essendon players have struggled with the WADA thing but have performed much better once they got to a new club. If we get him I think by this time next year we will be very happy with that trade.

 

[Mstr Strokesman]

Here's a question for you all...

Carlisle, and pick 5 gone (to the Injectors or elswhere doesn't overly matter), or;

Pearce and keep it?

Or Laverde and Carlisle for pick 5
Doubt bombers would do but anyone intrested .
Laverede was in trout top 10

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Delaney unfortunately is decent back up but not up to it.

I think it's unfair that you make a comment like "he's not the messiah", again I don't think anyone said he was this.

I think anyone who saw him play footy in his 2nd and 3rd year would agree that he was showing the type of potential to become a very strong key defender as he developed.

He development has somewhat stagnated. He's been caught up in a terrible situation and due to a lack of forwards and an influx of defenders, has been thrown around a lot.

He is a clear, clear upgrade on Delaney (who couldn't get a game toward the back end of the year) and someone we can rely on for 6-7 year.

He's a good player as we sit. He has the potential to be very good. He fits a need for our team moving forward. He fits our list profile.

Taking all of that as read. Why do you think we would have to give up a good pick to Essendon to get him. The Questions are "who else wants him?","where does he want to go?" and "what would other clubs give up to get him?" .

Essendon have very little leverage in the whole situation.
StKilda did not want to trade our former first round pick for a second rounder when he went to the Eagles. What you want is not what you get.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Or Laverde and Carlisle for pick 5
Doubt bombers would do but anyone intrested .
Laverede was in trout top 10

I'd go that

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Ah Chee, Gresham, Milera and Pearce are all indigenous. Would be great to get one of them IMO.

Mathieson and Pearce vs Carlisle and an Ah Chee/Gresham/Milera ?

Toss a coin.

I just want good footballers, don't care what color their skin is. ( am i doing it wrong )?

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Problem with harking back to two seasons ago is that Carlisle may never recapture that form.

Sometimes past form does count.
When I played my last yr of footy in 1999 my body was shot and I was a pretty ordinary player.
But "harking back " to 1988 when I first played senior footy I was also a pretty ordinary player back then.
I was very consistent

 

[St Pauls]

Crazy trade hypothetical-
Saints 1st rounder 2016 for
Pick 15 and Lachie Weller

Use pick 15 on best player available or less preferred on Carlisle.

 

[Munga]

Cmon.....this is taking forever....stuff the GF and bring on the off season!

 

[Rough_Edges]

Taking all of that as read. Why do you think we would have to give up a good pick to Essendon to get him. The Questions are "who else wants him?","where does he want to go?" and "what would other clubs give up to get him?" .

Essendon have very little leverage in the whole situation.
StKilda did not want to trade our former first round pick for a second rounder when he went to the Eagles. What you want is not what you get.

I mentioned in an earlier post that if Carlisle nominates us we will get him on the cheap.

If he doesn't have a preference, I think we should aggressively pursue him.

 

[saintbill]

Where would you rate Frawley and Lake in that same criteria? I wouldn't of thought they would individually do better than Carlisle on your comparisons.

Footy is more than just the individual now. Freo is exactly case in point, the collective is greater than the individual.

Carlisle make us better, no doubt. Give Hugh 2 years and he seems like he will take the bigger bodied Fwds, combined with Carlisle, Roberton and Webster and that seems like a pretty solid backline core, not forgetting Gilbert, which a lot of us do, it's a backline capable of as much as we had in 2009/10j

If we are comparing a younger Lake to today, I would definitely give Lake the edge. Both offer great marking potential inside defensive 50 but Lake's ability to read the play and know when to zone off is just exceptional. From a shut down perspective, I would also much prefer Lake. Once he gets that fat ass into gear he is reasonably quick off the mark.

If we are comparing Carlisle to Frawley, I would hands down be more comfortable with Frawley from a purely shut down perspective. Frawley is quick when running in straight lines and much more capable of defending the lead than Carlisle. However, from a rebound perspective, I would definitely give the nod to Carlisle.

Overall though I would rate both Lake and Frawley as better defenders than Carlisle. Part of the reason Carlisle is so expensive is because he has the capacity to be effective forward. However, apparently we have no intention of using him forward. Therefore if we are going to be forking out $700K for a defender, it would be nice if they are insanely good at defending. I am not convinced that Carlisle is.

No doubt he will make us better, but having $700k extra to throw at a Shiel or O'Meara in coming years excites me a lot more.

 

[StKing11]

On Pearce, according to Fremantle's draft bio he was an elite cricketer and only played local footy in Tassie for Ulverstone ahead of his drafting.

Apparently no key position player ever tested better for endurance at the combine considering he recorded a 15.5 beep test and a 10.06 3km time trial. He also apparently ran on average 13.8km a game for Ulverstone, having grown a whopping 10cm in 2012.

Three years ago I played coastal U19's footy against Alex, who as you said was playing for Ulverstone. He played CHF and absolutely tore us to shreds, can confirm that he's a super athletic beanpole. No idea why he was only playing 19's, pretty sure the next week he was in the 1's and we didn't have to play against him again, thank god..

Also, in his draft year he went and played for Devonport in the Tasmanian State League (our version of the WAFL, VFL, etc), made the state U18's side, and was drafted. Reckon that 13.8km a game was from his time with Devonport in the TSL, they don't have GPS trackers or anything of the sort in the NTFL (Ulverstone).

Regardless I highly doubt that he leaves Freo, should be best 22 next year with McPharlin probably retiring.

 

[Kilroy]

I just want good footballers, don't care what color their skin is. ( am i doing it wrong )?

Me too. Just happens to be a few indigenous players around the mark again. Even Kieran Lovell, Aidyn Johnson, Yestin Eades or Daniel Rioli might be in consideration.

Some would argue they invented the game. Milera and Ah Chee are among the best kicks in the draft according to some. Lovell and Gresham have got clean hands in contests. I'd just like to be sure we're not shy after the Lovett disaster.

Interesting that according to Emma Quayle we didn't have Pickett in our top 20 last year but we did have Cockatoo and Garlett.

 

[Grav]

Any thoughts on Kaiden Brand from Hawks (or are his shoulders too far gone)? Only young, has been training with the best, evidently had a pretty good season last year in the macgoos before missing this year with injury. Not sure of contract, but reckon would be cheap & be primed when we are vying for the flag.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Re. all this talk about Carlisle and whether he's worth the price or not, we also need to remember that he apparently had a very injury-interrupted preseason and that once he looks like he was moved back to defence, from R18 onwards, he averaged a very healthy 16 disposals (no games of less than 14 disposals) and 7.5 marks per game, over those last 6 games and took 7 contested marks in the last 3 of those games, once he stopped having his hissy-fit.

He also came about 6th in their B&F when he was just 21yo, which is an extremely good effort for someone that tall and playing in a key position.

Essendon tried to do with him what we tried to do with Gilbo after 2010 though and like with Gilbo, he seems much more comfortable in defence than up forward and as such I expect much better performances consistently from him if played in that role from now on.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Me too. Just happens to be a few indigenous players around the mark again. Even Kieran Lovell, Aidyn Johnson, Yestin Eades or Daniel Rioli might be in consideration.

Some would argue they invented the game. I'd just like to be sure we're not shy after the Lovett disaster.

I doubt it. Like non-indigenous people, for every dickhead there are plenty of non dickheads. I think the club enjoyed a good relationship with the Clarke's, and Milera. And while Nick Winmar seemed to have a grudge against the Saints when he was delisted, i don't think its ever been suggested that the club was not happy with him on a personal level.

 

[aussierulesrules]

No doubt he will make us better, but having $700k extra to throw at a Shiel or O'Meara in coming years excites me a lot more.

Here's the thing though. We're in a position where we're going to have a mountain of cap space free for next season so we could front-end a chunk of Carlisle's contract so that it doesn't take up $700K worth of our cap in each of those following years.

We may pay him say $1.5mil of it next year, leaving him on just an average of $500K PA for the remaining 4 years (assuming he's on $700K PA, which we're hearing may be a bit more than we've offered), to help us go after the likes of Shiel in those years. The salary cap could also take a big leap upwards if the AFLPA get their way in coming years, making $500K no big deal at all by the end of that 5 year deal.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Knightmare's comment about Freeman on his thread on the D&T board:

Freeman is such a Port Adelaide (style) of player. He can win the contested footy and uses it reasonably efficiently. But his running is for an inside player outstanding. He has an elite pace and endurance combination. I still see him as a variation on Luke Shuey. Shuey I feel will be the slightly more dominant contested ball winner, Freeman the more explosive and better runner with better decision making ability. But in terms of career projection. That's what I'm still anticipating. It is also thought that Freeman still has his running ability. So he is such a Port Adelaide (style) fit because he does those things needed but so perfectly fits the clubs style of game as he will accelerate and take on the game with ball in hand.

 

[jonathons11]

Knightmare's comment about Freeman on his thread on the D&T board:

Have Port shown any interest in him?

 

[aussierulesrules]

Have Port shown any interest in him?

Probably doesn't matter since he's nominated us. Would have to go back and re-read his thread to get that answer though.

 

[sammm]

I don't think anyone denies that Carlisle is a good player and the picks we give up or suggest isn't neccessarily an indication of how we rate him. The size of the contract in front of him is more of an indication of how much we rate him and lucky for us - the two aren't linked.

If, and a big if, he nominates us - just about everything is going against the Bombers in a trade sense.

Look at Bruce as an example, Giants knew he had potential as a former zone selection and U18AA - knew of his potential worth too. They asked for a first rounder, we weren't even prepared to give our second rounder for him. Why? He was OOC, nominated us and we played a better game.

I'm not suggesting Carlisle is worth a pick in the 40s, but when you weigh it all up - what the Bombers want or what is fair means very little. Especially when the top 8 or 9 players this year have genuine star qualities - as good as or better than other years.

How much work did Bains do in getting thoese trades and how much work did Pelchen do? does Bains and trout have the nous in getting trades done?