2015 Trade/FA Discussion (cont. in Pt.2)

[winged1]

The problem with both Dixon and Henderson is that they are as good as they are going to get. Both been in the system for a number of years and never IMO taken the next step and I doubt they will. Carlisle I think people get carried away with a couple of good games, for a guy turning 24 this year I dont know if he is good enough to be a no1 key forward.

The gamble the Bulldogs took with Boyd was huge but they are banking on him becoming a franchise player and it may well come off.

For mine Cameron and Lynch would be the ones but both are off the table. Patton would be the next best option or McCarthy as the more mobile type, he is a similar size to Brown, so he is big enough to play key post. Get one of these guys and Close or Freeman up and running and the whole forward structure changes with Close/Freeman getting the no 2 defender and McStay the third.

 

[jackess]

With due respect, I clearly rate them higher than you and am willing to put more eggs into that basket. I'll be quite surprised if 3 out of 4 aren't on our list long term, although it's obviously possible.
But that doesn't mean we just place all hope in these few guys. Unless something really significant changes from here to round 23, I agree we'll need a more mature KPF at season's end. We can't rely on 18-21yo's to carry the forward line just yet. I don't mind Dixon but he gets injured frequently and despite some potential has never really dominated a game. Still, we can't be too picky. He is big, strong, agile and can play key forward or ruck. I'd be more open to a big name trade in a couple years when we have a better idea of what our forward line looks like.

Also, in 4-5 years Close, McStay etc. would be reaching the peak of their powers, wouldn't they? 23, 24, 25 years old- there's been plenty of key forwards establish themselves by that age and play well in finals. I think there's probably a window from something like 2018-2021 where we should have a bunch of guys peaking at the same time.

I agree. I think unless we can trade for a few guns which would be extremely unlikely our next finals window will be 2018-21. This is probably optimistic if they can repair our ruined culture and we don't lose too many. Also I don't see us as a top 4 team just a team making up the numbers. By 2018 I think we should have 2 key forwards that can do a job. That's why if we got Rance, Henderson or Carlisle I'd be playing them down back.

 

[Viceregal]

I agree. I think unless we can trade for a few guns which would be extremely unlikely our next finals window will be 2018-21. This is probably optimistic if they can repair our ruined culture and we don't lose too many. Also I don't see us as a top 4 team just a team making up the numbers. By 2018 I think we should have 2 key forwards that can do a job. That's why if we got Rance, Henderson or Carlisle I'd be playing them down back.

Isn't the point of getting an experienced KPF this year to give our fledgling ones a better chance to learn their trade both via lesser opposition attention (being 2 and 3 not 1 and 2) and more structured and confident entries etc for our mids to straighten us up ... I would expect that if we plunked a 2004 version Browny in at CHF it would make a bit of difference to our structure and confidence etc ...

 

[jackess]

Isn't the point of getting an experienced KPF this year to give our fledgling ones a better chance to learn their trade both via lesser opposition attention (being 2 and 3 not 1 and 2) and more structured and confident entries etc for our mids to straighten us up ... I would expect that if we plunked a 2004 version Browny in at CHF it would make a bit of difference to our structure and confidence etc ...

I like that plan but it would seem the club just wants to play as many young guys that they rate as possible to get 60 games into them and speed up their development.

 

[winged1]

I agree. I think unless we can trade for a few guns which would be extremely unlikely our next finals window will be 2018-21. This is probably optimistic if they can repair our ruined culture and we don't lose too many. Also I don't see us as a top 4 team just a team making up the numbers. By 2018 I think we should have 2 key forwards that can do a job. That's why if we got Rance, Henderson or Carlisle I'd be playing them down back.

I dont think we have a "ruined culture" more a young side with a couple of key injuries.

 

[James North]

Great discussion guys.

 

[Nuggo]

Is securing the services of Carlisle and Dixon getting greedy and unrealistic?

 

[blueiris]

Is securing the services of Carlisle and Dixon getting greedy and unrealistic?

I think we would have more chance of getting Henderson then Carlisle. Just something he said about wanting to be a 2 club player coming back to Brisbane would mean he would stay a 2 club player I'm sure Swann would have a good relationship with him and could sway him our way

 

[Nuggo]

Oh alright then, Henderson and Dixon it is....we'll probable just end up with a handful of peanuts.

 

[jackess]

Is securing the services of Carlisle and Dixon getting greedy and unrealistic?

Not if we lose Leuenberger, Aish and possibly miss out on Keays.

 

[blueiris]

Not if we lose Leuenberger, Aish and possibly miss out on Keays.

Aren't Carlisle Henderson and Dixon all out of contact if we finished last as most media are picking us to do couldn't we sway one into the pre season draft

 

[captainrich]

would we really want henderson? definetly shown more as a defender than a forward, has had injury issues and really not shown he consistently split packs/make contests (at the end of the day thats all we need to settle for, someone who can make a contest bring the ball to ground, unlikely we would get a contested marking gun in their prime in the next 5 years)

 

[lionshine]

Aren't Carlisle Henderson and Dixon all out of contact if we finished last as most media are picking us to do couldn't we sway one into the pre season draft

Yeah…. we could… if we wanted to ruin our relationship with one of those players clubs that is. So in other words no we couldn't because the club wouldn't want to do that. It would come back to haunt us in the future.

 

[blueiris]

Yeah…. we could… if we wanted to ruin our relationship with one of those players clubs that is. So in other words no we couldn't because the club wouldn't want to do that. It would come back to haunt us in the future.

How many times has it happened to us in the past. Clubs already think they can stand over us I'd say it's time we were the one's that got Ruthless.

 

[lionshine]

How many times has it happened to us in the past. Clubs already think they can stand over us I'd say it's time we were the one's that got Ruthless.

I don't recall it happening to us in the past. I have no issue with being ruthless at the trade table and making a stand but I do have an issue with the club blatantly screwing another club over and I would be very, very surprised if the club did that as that is what ruins important relationships.

 

[Quigley]

I would be having a crack at Witts. He is looking like being a career backup at Collingwood and is a mountain of a man. We need a young developing ruck and I am yet to be convinced by Archie.

 

[pulpdriver]

I would be having a crack at Witts. He is looking like being a career backup at Collingwood and is a mountain of a man. We need a young developing ruck and I am yet to be convinced by Archie.

I'd think we'd have enough ruck options even if Leuie leaves, even more so if Dixon is our target.

 

[jackess]

I would be having a crack at Witts. He is looking like being a career backup at Collingwood and is a mountain of a man. We need a young developing ruck and I am yet to be convinced by Archie.

I see Andrews taking over the ruck in at least three years time when Martin, West and Leuey are gone. As his body develops he may become more athletic but I can't see him holding down a key position.

 

[John_Proctor]

Watched witts play vfl the other day (live 500m from vic park) and witts was getting beaten by orren Stephenson in the ruck. He is a mountain but just not mobile/fit enough for the modern game.

 

[Sanchez365]

I was a massive Cornelius fan but I don't think he would have saved us in this period. Would have been a better option then say mcguane now, bit that is well and truely with the benefit of hindsight.

I did hope he had made one more season to see the change of coach come through as it might have turned him around but who knows, probably unlikely.

Ultimately I think we have good prospects up forward at the moment but we still need one big kpf in a similar age bracket to our midfield. Im mainly keen on Dixon because I'd you put a guy of his size up forward, even if he doesn't score a lot of goals he takes the biggest defender and has proven he is willing to throw his weight around when down there. That's one of the reasons I don't have high hopes for Henderson as he looks like a bunny out on the field. While it was only one specific play I loved seeing Andrews use his body to try to create space for the smaller guy last week. If luenburger had that same mentality he would be getting a game but just doesn't seem likely at the moment.

Put one big guy willing to crunch people and suddenly everyone is looking over their shoulder, geez just have a look at the footage of roughhead on hanners in the gf last year. He almost single handedly spooked an entire team! That's what we need up forward, one person willing to do that because we have some great pieces to build around that pillar in mcstay and close.

When freeman comes back this will be what i rate him on as opposed to his raw goal stats because at the moment, he is the most likely of that kind of player on our list.

 

[John_Proctor]

I was going to debate this as I'm quite a fan of Close (although not as the main target as such, but probably for another post) and think he's been handy and should become a serviceable key forward, but Ace kicked 3 bags of 4 in 25 games and averaged 1.4 goals a game and 2 marks inside 50 a game. Not amazing stats but I'd love to add a player doing that in the forward line at the moment.

Possibly more a reflection of how dire our situation is than anything.

I do wonder if corny was an victim of picking the 22 prototypical modern footballers rather than picking a team where you can afford to have 1 player who is a forward whose job it is to just kick 2 goals a game. How long since we had a season where someone kicked 40+ goals ina season? And as your stats point to ace on average (1.4) pretty much would have won our goal kicking with 22 games a year the last 5 years.

Instead I think we often haven't welcomed role players or players with a specific set of skills. Polec was 'soft' instead of being an attacking weapon, karnezis as a better than goal a game forward needed to be able to play midfield, Mayes learn defense...

Just considering not advocating.

Definitely one who thinks we can't wait for the young forwards to 'hopefully come through. Age of best 5 mids means we have to be in a Position for finals in 2 years and premiership in 4-6.

 

[Sanchez365]

I do wonder if corny was an victim of picking the 22 prototypical modern footballers rather than picking a team where you can afford to have 1 player who is a forward whose job it is to just kick 2 goals a game. How long since we had a season where someone kicked 40+ goals ina season? And as your stats point to ace on average (1.4) pretty much would have won our goal kicking with 22 games a year the last 5 years.

Instead I think we often haven't welcomed role players or players with a specific set of skills. Polec was 'soft' instead of being an attacking weapon, karnezis as a better than goal a game forward needed to be able to play midfield, Mayes learn defense...

Just considering not advocating.

Definitely one who thinks we can't wait for the young forwards to 'hopefully come through. Age of best 5 mids means we have to be in a Position for finals in 2 years and premiership in 4-6.

Its an interesting point where we do seem to have a habit of playing players for development instead of letting them succeed in their natural role.

I can only attribute this to a hawthorn like "everyone must play everywhere" idea but for them it only works because they have extremely good players that command the bulk of the responsibility.

There is nothing more frustrating then hearing commentators say how great Gunston is because he can occasionally float down to full back to get some touches.

To me.it seems basically a gimmick, Gunston could literally be anyone that can catch the ball by feeding off the awesome defensive pressure the MIDs put on and the excellent structure their key backs have. I rate him as a good forward but the way people.rave about his "versatility" playing on no man and filling space is a bit nauseating at times.

 

[John_Proctor]

^ but Gunston is never playing in defense he is playing forward and floating back...

Hawthorn are the reverse of your suggested everyone/everywhere - they are a team of role players.

 

[BigCat2]

Just on that, I wish:
- Mayes was being played as HFF
- Paparone was being played on wing/HF
- Lester was played as inside midfielder
- Adcock was played as HBF

Why not have more players playing in their best positions? Then we'll be able to better complete, and play to a higher standard.

Yes versatility is important, but does the whole team need it?
Do Tom Hawkins or Travis Cloke get played in defence to help their versatility? Or Alex Rance get played in the midfield?

 

[Sanchez365]

^ but Gunston is never playing in defense he is playing forward and floating back...

Hawthorn are the reverse of your suggested everyone/everywhere - they are a team of role players.

That's my point though, every time he takes a mark in the defence 50 the commentators start racving about how he can play at fullback.

Maybe you're right, should start watching football without the sound on.