2015 Trade/FA Discussion - Part 2

[WhiteLionFeva]

Yep, that makes sense. Green played 12 games that year in a crumbing forward pocket role pretty close to the one Luke started with.

Has Green developed as quickly as a young Luke Power? Probably not. Is Green currently contributing more than Luke would be? Undoubtedly.

It reminds us that Luke was a top 10 draft pick and played up to his potential in a very good Lions era. His development was bound to happen more quickly than Green's and he probably had more to build on although I think Green can get better. It's worth remembering that Luke kicked 50 goals in his best season in the role. No reason why Green can't aim for 35 to 50 given some improved service and KPF support.

 

[Milux]

Except he was contracted, and it was up to the Lions as to whether he could be part of that.
The Lions would have been backing themselves to keep him and not a good look to be trading out a high draft pick, half way through his first contract, on the back of the go home 5.

Yep. And in being stubborn by not letting aish go we kept him and got peanuts in return. Then we lost a spot on our list for a year to help develop someone else. I would of been all for aish plus pick 5 for beams. So would 99% of lions fans.

 

[dlanod]

Yep. And in being stubborn by not letting aish go we kept him and got peanuts in return. Then we lost a spot on our list for a year to help develop someone else. I would of been all for aish plus pick 5 for beams. So would 99% of lions fans.

I don't see how you can argue both that got "peanuts" in return for Aish when you're also arguing that Aish should have been involved in the Beams trade.

In 2014, Collingwood was wanting 5 + Aish for Beams. The final deal was 5, 25 and Crisp. The net result would have been Aish being valued at 25 and probably a pick in the 40s or 50s at best (an estimate of Crisp's value at that point).

In 2015, we got Collingwood's second rounder (then shipped to North) and St Kilda's 2016 second rounder for Aish. That's significantly more than we would have kept in 2015 if Aish had been involved in the Beams trade.

Looking at the above we have come out ahead of where we would have been if Aish had been involved in the Beams trade. Once you factor in academy bidding, it pushes it even more in favour of the separate Aish trade.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Yep. And in being stubborn by not letting aish go we kept him and got peanuts in return. Then we lost a spot on our list for a year to help develop someone else. I would of been all for aish plus pick 5 for beams. So would 99% of lions fans.

Such a stupid argument, sorry to be so blunt, but that is what it is. Especially when you presume to speak on behalf of 99 percent of Lions fans.

We are in a very good position in both this draft and the next as a result of holding on to Aish.

I'll take securing Hipwood, Keays, Allison and Rolls over Crisp and whoever went at pick 25 last year. Peanuts eh?

The picks we got for Aish could very well mean We don't have to trade a top 5 pick next year for two lesser first round picks for academy kids. I.e potentially gets us a top 5 draftee on top of our academy kids. Again... Peanuts?

As for "a list spot for a year", lol. We've been turning over players at an alarming rate as it is... another list spot would have been worth bugger all. We get one this year anyway.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Fatcat08]

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

knew you'd drop your sky wizard charade at some point.

 

[Hollow Knight]

knew you'd drop your sky wizard charade at some point.

Only when there is the opportunity for a Billy Madison reference.

Otherwise... God lel!

 

[Milux]

Such a stupid argument, sorry to be so blunt, but that is what it is. Especially when you presume to speak on behalf of 99 percent of Lions fans.

We are in a very good position in both this draft and the next as a result of holding on to Aish.

I'll take securing Hipwood, Keays, Allison and Rolls over Crisp and whoever went at pick 25 last year. Peanuts eh?

The picks we got for Aish could very well mean We don't have to trade a top 5 pick next year for two lesser first round picks for academy kids. I.e potentially gets us a top 5 draftee on top of our academy kids. Again... Peanuts?

As for "a list spot for a year", lol. We've been turning over players at an alarming rate as it is... another list spot would have been worth bugger all. We get one this year anyway.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I don't see how you can argue both that got "peanuts" in return for Aish when you're also arguing that Aish should have been involved in the Beams trade.

In 2014, Collingwood was wanting 5 + Aish for Beams. The final deal was 5, 25 and Crisp. The net result would have been Aish being valued at 25 and probably a pick in the 40s or 50s at best (an estimate of Crisp's value at that point).

In 2015, we got Collingwood's second rounder (then shipped to North) and St Kilda's 2016 second rounder for Aish. That's significantly more than we would have kept in 2015 if Aish had been involved in the Beams trade.

Looking at the above we have come out ahead of where we would have been if Aish had been involved in the Beams trade. Once you factor in academy bidding, it pushes it even more in favour of the separate Aish trade.

Dont worry gents. Have had my nap now and see the light. Literally.

 

[Ironmonger]

Except he was contracted, and it was up to the Lions as to whether he could be part of that.
The Lions would have been backing themselves to keep him and not a good look to be trading out a high draft pick, half way through his first contract, on the back of the go home 5.

This for me is the key point.

The club has to back itself in to turn players around in their first couple of years at the club. Even if Aish was keen to leave at the end of 2014, we had to try to change his mind in the next twelve months.

Although I still feel like peanuts is sadly an apt description of what we ended up getting for him. In simple terms we traded away Redden and Aish for Bastinac and a few lower picks, with the Saints' future second rounder probably the biggest prize. And that was originally traded for Nathan Freeman, who hasn't played a game.

It rather feels like we've traded two quite valuable assets for a bunch of things no one else particularly wanted. It's great that we can take those things and turn them into something useful through the academy system, but if we have to trade away experienced players in order to get the academy players we want I don't know if we're really getting maximum value out of the one meagre competitive advantage we have over the heartland clubs.

 

[Balony_pony16]

The similarities between Buckley and Aish are hardly likely to be coincidental. The deal between Collingwood and Bucks was done before he was drafted and Brisbane was well aware. I don't think Brisbane were aware this time around, but with Buckley at the helm down there, I have little doubt now, that they identified, approached and promised the outcome as far back as 2 years ago.
Whether it was Brisbane, North or Gold Coast, I reckon the aim was always to pair Aish & Scharenberg.

Interesting theory...But then why wouldnt Aish put his name up last season when he would have been traded easily in the Beams deal?

 

[M Malice]

This for me is the key point.

The club has to back itself in to turn players around in their first couple of years at the club. Even if Aish was keen to leave at the end of 2014, we had to try to change his mind in the next twelve months.

Although I still feel like peanuts is sadly an apt description of what we ended up getting for him. In simple terms we traded away Redden and Aish for Bastinac and a few lower picks, with the Saints' future second rounder probably the biggest prize. And that was originally traded for Nathan Freeman, who hasn't played a game.

It rather feels like we've traded two quite valuable assets for a bunch of things no one else particularly wanted. It's great that we can take those things and turn them into something useful through the academy system, but if we have to trade away experienced players in order to get the academy players we want I don't know if we're really getting maximum value out of the one meagre competitive advantage we have over the heartland clubs.

the lower draft picks are a lot more valuable with the academy points system. in reality we will be getting approx. 3 top 15 draft picks in this years draft in schache, hipwood and keays. on redden he had been a great servant of the club and said he needed a fresh start, the departure was done with mutual respect and good wishes by redden and the lions. i know not directly in that deal but i see bastinac as the replacement for redden, a fair result overall.

 

[Clarkythelion]

We should put this conversation to bed. Despite what the media say about our trade and draft period the fact remains: We got rid of some people who didn't want to stay for their own reasons. We go some Queenslanders home AND we replaced people we lost with reasonable recruits with the same or better skills on long term contracts AND we set ourselves up to recruit the best Qld prospects. Don't listen to the 'voices' and the 'hanger on's'. Everything in the balance to me seems to have us slightly ahead of where we were last year and if the new physical development department and the new player welfare department pays off as expected, our conversation next year will be about a 5% list change not a 40% change.

 

[Skoob]

Interesting theory...But then why wouldnt Aish put his name up last season when he would have been traded easily in the Beams deal?

See above (dlanod & TBD) I think covers it.

Milux & Ironmonger -
Peanuts or not (that could be debated all day), it shouldn't be forgotten that Crisp was on the way out the door, regardless of the Beams trade. Whenever a gamble is taken (and every time we invest in a player, it's a gamble) there is always a chance of coming out behind (though I don' think we have).
Occasionally you have to take a stand or back yourself for a better outcome, but the outcome isn't always the obvious short term one. As I said, I think there's a fair chance Aish was gone before he got here, but the Lions weren't necessarily to know that. They took a shot, the Beams deal was sound, the Aish deal wasn't terrible, I think the club did okay.

 

[Milux]

We should put this conversation to bed. Despite what the media say about our trade and draft period the fact remains: We got rid of some people who didn't want to stay for their own reasons. We go some Queenslanders home AND we replaced people we lost with reasonable recruits with the same or better skills on long term contracts AND we set ourselves up to recruit the best Qld prospects. Don't listen to the 'voices' and the 'hanger on's'. Everything in the balance to me seems to have us slightly ahead of where we were last year and if the new physical development department and the new player welfare department pays off as expected, our conversation next year will be about a 5% list change not a 40% change.

Agreed. We need a few years of 5% list changes to settle the group. Not too many retirements in the not so distant future either with merrett being the only real chance of retiring in a few years.

 

[Dan12]

The Aish/Bastinac deal was clearly a huge win for us.

The deal can be split in two:

Bastinac, 38 & 40 for 17

Aish for St. Kilda's 2nd and North's 3rd in 2016

So taking into account academy points that is a four pick downgrade from 17 to 21 to get Bastinac and probably a pick around 14-20 for Aish. That is such a huge win.

Academy points are central to all our trades from now on.

 

[braddsey]

The Aish/Bastinac deal was clearly a huge win for us.
The deal can be split in two:
Bastinac, 38 & 40 for 17
Aish for St. Kilda's 2nd and North's 3rd in 2016

So...Bastinac, 38 & 40 for Redden. Aish for St. Kilda's 2nd and North's 3rd in 2016. I still think i'm okay with that, but only because of academy points next year.

Academy points are central to all our trades from now on.

This will be how we build the foundation of a club that other players want to come to. If we can get pickup the best of the youth in Queensland they're not going to leave. We start winning, and then the club becomes an attractive destination again. If/when we get to a position where we're challenging in September it will get more complex. We won't want to best academy players to go elsewhere, but at the same time we'll likely be wanting to trade in experienced players to get us from finalists to No 1. At some point we will need to stop trading for the future and trade for the now.

 

[acuguy]

Bell and Bastinac will be huge contributors defensively. Both players transition well from offensive to defensive run, this is a real weakness in our current midfield with Beams, Rockliff and Rich.

 

[Nunez]

Bell and Bastinac will be huge contributors defensively. Both players transition well from offensive to defensive run, this is a real weakness in our current midfield with Beams, Rockliff and Rich.

Rockliff is great defensively

 

[L Dizz]

Rockliff is great defensively

Rockliff is great defensively in the clinches, sure, but I think he meant Bell and Bastinac will be great at pushing back when we turn the ball over and getting back to cover the opposition midfielders that are streaming forward. Rockliff isn't great at that aspect of defence because he's not a great runner

 

[carnthemlions]

Rockliff is great defensively in the clinches, sure, but I think he meant Bell and Bastinac will be great at pushing back when we turn the ball over and getting back to cover the opposition midfielders that are streaming forward. Rockliff isn't great at that aspect of defence because he's not a great runner

Wouldn't say I've ever got the impression that Bastinac had much of a defensive game at all...

 

[L Dizz]

Wouldn't say I've ever got the impression that Bastinac had much of a defensive game at all...

Fair enough, I was more pointing out that his good running SHOULD compliment some of our other mids

 

[acuguy]

I think Bastinac and Bell should help our defensive transition, Rockliff and Beams really are one way midfielders.

 

[carnthemlions]

I think Bastinac and Bell should help our defensive transition, Rockliff and Beams really are one way midfielders.

Which Ryan Bastinac have you been watching???

 

[SizeMatters]

Which Ryan Bastinac have you been watching???

he will play an inside role and was exceptional in his first few years before being moved to an outside role. Can't see why he won't be able to cover the opposition mids on the rebound especially with his elite running capacity.

 

[snooplions]

With Beams, Robinson, rockliff and Bastinac in the centre, our contested and clearance numbers don't really have an excuse to be low next year barring injuries.
Just saying those names makes you realise how different our team is now.. feels almost foreign.

 

[Ironmonger]

he will play an inside role and was exceptional in his first few years before being moved to an outside role. Can't see why he won't be able to cover the opposition mids on the rebound especially with his elite running capacity.

He has good endurance, but he's not quick.

I really don't buy this inside/outside binary with Bastinac. I don't remember him ever being a beast inside.

In any case, I suspect we'd want him to play both roles - Leppitsch doesn't seem too keen on purely inside players.