Banter 2017 - Best 22

[Turbocat]

I think GHS is ahead of Blicavs, for one GHS can play mid (and get more than 17 disposals a match) as well as forward where he's far more capable of taking a contested mark and kicking a goal than Blicavs.

You may think that but id say most others would disagree. The running game requires what Blitz has , stamina..add the height for marks and Blitz has a package of talents that bring him to selection before GHS. Sure GHS is probably a superior footballer , especially in a lesser comp but in AFL Blitz has the edge.
If Blitz is to be replaced it would be by a better footballer with better attributes. Lang and Parfitt seems likely and as Menegola showed , if you have what they like its possible to get selected before GeorgeHS

 

[Partridge]

You may think that but id say most others would disagree. The running game requires what Blitz has , stamina..add the height for marks and Blitz has a package of talents that bring him to selection before GHS. Sure GHS is probably a superior footballer , especially in a lesser comp but in AFL Blitz has the edge.
If Blitz is to be replaced it would be by a better footballer with better attributes. Lang and Parfitt seems likely and as Menegola showed , if you have what they like its possible to get selected before GeorgeHS

Of the perceived attributes Blicavs brings, I'm not sure marking is one of them. In his last game he couldn't outmark Isaac Heeney.

 

[catswhiskers]

Of the perceived attributes Blicavs brings, I'm not sure marking is one of them. In his last game he couldn't outmark Isaac Heeney.

Do we have a comparison of the contested marks for Blicavs vs the contested marking of other mids over time?

I am not sure using one lost contest is the way to judge whether or not Blitz is above average in contested marking (where height is an advantage).

Those stats would be very interesting and advance the discussion.

 

[Ricketz]

Do we have a comparison of the contested marks for Blicavs vs the contested marking of other mids over time?

I am not sure using one lost contest is the way to judge whether or not Blitz is above average in contested marking (where height is an advantage).

Those stats would be very interesting and advance the discussion.

Of the two players mentioned in the immediate discussion that have played AFL level - Lang and GHS, Blicavs has it over them averaging 0.6 contested marks per game over his career versus 0.2 and 0.1 respectively. He also did significantly better in that stat in 2016 than Guthrie (0.3), Menegola (0.25), Mitch Duncan (0.12), J Selwood (0.29), S Selwood (0.2), Motlop (0.17) and Cowan (0.11).

But for a tall guy, I wouldn't say 0.6 is particularly impressive - Stanley takes almost double the number of contested marks per game (1.19), and he is probably the most similar type of player to Blicavs.

 

[Partridge]

Do we have a comparison of the contested marks for Blicavs vs the contested marking of other mids over time?

I am not sure using one lost contest is the way to judge whether or not Blitz is above average in contested marking (where height is an advantage).

Those stats would be very interesting and advance the discussion.

My argument is although he's tall marking isn't a natural attribute of his. Neither is goalkicking. That's not a slur, to me that's just the reality right now. The attributes he brings to the team aren't in those areas (and he's never been a goalkicker so it would be unfair to expect that of him).

 

[catswhiskers]

Of the two players mentioned in the immediate discussion that have played AFL level - Lang and GHS, Blicavs has it over them averaging 0.6 contested marks per game over his career versus 0.2 and 0.1 respectively. He also did significantly better in that stat in 2016 than Guthrie (0.3), Menegola (0.25), Mitch Duncan (0.12), J Selwood (0.29), S Selwood (0.2), Motlop (0.17) and Cowan (0.11).

But for a tall guy, I wouldn't say 0.6 is particularly impressive - Stanley takes almost double the number of contested marks per game (1.19), and he is probably the most similar type of player to Blicavs.

Thankyou. Very interesting and helpful stats. Are the figures for the career at AFL level? If so Blitz can probably be forgiven his first year where he was just learning how to negate ruckmen. Maybe even two years.

I will see if I can find 2016 only stats for Blitz where as a mid he should have averaged better than 0.6 contested marks.

 

[catswhiskers]

In fact it seems he has not improved his contested marking

2013 = 14
2014 = 7
2015 = 19
2016 = 14
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/M/Mark_Blicavs.html

That surprises me.

 

[BlightysCats]

Of the perceived attributes Blicavs brings, I'm not sure marking is one of them. In his last game he couldn't outmark Isaac Heeney.

All Blicavs has is endurance, and height which he uses for some sub standard rucking, he can't take a contested mark, isn't creative or a great decision maker with his disposal, and contrary to popular opinion on here isn't a great tagger either. In short he's one of, if not the, most overrated player I've ever seen in the hoops.

 

[Bobby_]

In fact it seems he has not improved his contested marking

2013 = 14
2014 = 7
2015 = 19
2016 = 14
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/M/Mark_Blicavs.html

That surprises me.

Playing in the midfield, you really don't get as many opportunities to pluck the high ball as what you do in the back line or forward line, so while 14 contested marks is piss poor for a player 6ft'6 tall, I'd be interested to see how he goes as a permanent defender.

Lonergan was never the best contested mark but his numbers slowly improved over time.

 

[catswhiskers]

All Blicavs has is endurance, and height which he uses for some sub standard rucking, he can't take a contested mark isn't creative or a great decision maker with his disposal and contrary to popular opinion on here isn't a great tagger either. In short he's one of, if not the, most overrated player I've ever seen in the hoops.

Again I am not sure stats that show he is a better contested mark than all other Geelong mids leads to the conclusion he is overrated.

I noticed also [ http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/M/Mark_Blicavs.html ] his uncontested possessions and contested possessions are on a nice growth curve year on year . So he as well as Lang (probably his his biggest rival for a round one midfield spot) is improving. I look at this as good news.

As an aside. I managed to sneak into SS for one of the very early training sessions in his first year. He was away from the playing group with a coach who was throwing the ball in from the boundary. Blitz was required to use his right hand to direct the ball down. Then use his left hand. Can't get much more basic training than that. Thats where he started and so far he has done better than I expected. So I won't be bagging him.

I think he has a lot more competition for a place in the side this year than he had over the past 4 years.

It has been a most interesting experiment and I think its only half done. If he can hold his place as Lang, Cockatoo, GHS etc bust a gut to get his permanent spot in the team he will have to have improved again.

 

[Turbocat]

Of the perceived attributes Blicavs brings, I'm not sure marking is one of them. In his last game he couldn't outmark Isaac Heeney.

Id hardly say anyone played well in the Swans game..generally id say Mark is a good mark. ...and Heeney is very good young player.

 

[cynical]

B Stewart Kolo Thurlow
HB Guthrie Henderson Tuohy
C Motlop Duncan Lang
HF Cowan Taylor Cocky
FF McCarthy Hawkins Menzel
R Smith Dangerfield Selwood
I Stanley S Selwood Menegola Bews

2 KPDs
1 3rd tall defender
4 small defenders with pace (some can go through the midfield)
3 outside mids
4 inside mids
2 rucks
2 kpfs
1 3rd tall
3 small forwards

Lonergan is unlucky but he has no offensive game and I prefer Kolo as he is the future.
Stewart as the 3rd tall defender as we dont have any (the others are all kp or smalls)
Guthrie to defense since we have 3 outside mids already. (bursts in the midfield)
Lang comes in to play on a wing as he is experienced enough to play mid now
Cowan goes forward to provide more pressure and use his smarts (replacing gregson). His falling over wont hurt as much up forward.
Blicavs isnt a midfielder and Stanley is the better ruck and more useful forward so Blicavs is depth
Taylor is the CHF until House passes him (then he goes to the VFL/retirement)

I think that is the best balanced team.

depth players
KPD - lonergan
3rd tall d - mackie
small defender - ruggles
inside mid - ghs
outside mid -n/a (move guthrie/cowan)
ruck - blicavs
KPF - House
3rd tall f - black
small forward - parfitt/murdoch

 

[Ricketz]

Thankyou. Very interesting and helpful stats. Are the figures for the career at AFL level? If so Blitz can probably be forgiven his first year where he was just learning how to negate ruckmen. Maybe even two years.

I will see if I can find 2016 only stats for Blitz where as a mid he should have averaged better than 0.6 contested marks.

Career figures are based on AFL games played, which is why I went to those when comparing to Lang and GHS, given their numbers are not really comparable for 2016 alone.

Pretty rough analysis, but it gives a bit of a glimpse - not horrible by comparison to other mids, but not great compared to other talls - something I reckon Blicavs suffers from in other areas too, given his hybrid role.

 

[BlightysCats]

Again I am not sure stats that show he is a better contested mark than all other Geelong mids leads to the conclusion he is overrated.

He's far taller than those mids and spent some portion of last years games as a second ruckman so to have the contested marking stats he does is pathetic. As for his possession count rising when Horlin Smith last played any consistent games at AFL level during the season (in 2014) he averaged one less possession a game than Blitz did last year and GHS had almost 20% less game time in 2014 on average than Blitz did last year, he also kicked 13 goals that season a far better return than Blitz has ever had. GHS has surely improved since then and imo has more strings to his bow now especially with the new 3rd man up rule restricting the one true reason Blitz seemed to be in our team. I don't think anybody could possibly say GHS wouldn't have performed better in the Prelim last year than Blicavs.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Blicavs is ahead of GHS. End of.
Blicavs isn't going to play for us in 2017 as a defender. End of.

 

[Partridge]

Id hardly say anyone played well in the Swans game..generally id say Mark is a good mark. ...and Heeney is very good young player.

Blicavs is 13cm taller. And he had best position. If a ruckman can't outmark a midfielder - not a particularly tall one either - there's something wrong.

 

[BlightysCats]

Blicavs is 13cm taller. And he had best position. If a ruckman can't outmark a midfielder - not a particularly tall one either - there's something wrong.

Of course there's something wrong! 14 contested marks in 2016 for our third tallest player?!?

Blicavs has a great story and full credit to him for getting where he has from where he was, I'm sure it took a lot of dedication and hard work but we've got to get past this story as supporters and the coaching staff have to as well and just look logically at his output which is below standard.

It's criminal that he wasn't dropped last year and surely would've created some disillusionment within players like Lang, GHS, Cocky that were on the fringes.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Blicavs is 13cm taller. And he had best position. If a ruckman can't outmark a midfielder - not a particularly tall one either - there's something wrong.

just had a horrible flashback to Greg Williams beating Stephen Handley one-on-one in the goalsquare in the '95 GF ..

 

[Turbocat]

Blicavs is 13cm taller. And he had best position. If a ruckman can't outmark a midfielder - not a particularly tall one either - there's something wrong.

13cm taller yes , but after that I cant remember the contest so ill trust you interpretation of it.

 

[BlightysCats]

just had a horrible flashback to Greg Williams beating Stephen Handley one-on-one in the goalsquare in the '95 GF ..

Funny you say that Blitz has always reminded me of Handley.

 

[DanA]

In fact it seems he has not improved his contested marking

2013 = 14
2014 = 7
2015 = 19
2016 = 14
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/M/Mark_Blicavs.html

That surprises me.

We play way too many tall players so Blicavs isn't really targeted. Statistically we take three times as many contested marks as the next best team (Sydney) and because we play such a tall line up we shoe horn Blicavs into using gut running to find space. He doesn't really have the speed to be effective nor are his foot skills penetrating enough to be an outside mid.

Really IMO we should only play three talls in the defence (Henderson, Lonergan, Kolodjashnij & Taylor) and two in midfield predominantly as ruckmen (Smith, Stanley, Blicavs). It will do my head in if we play the three talls in midfield and four talls in defence again this season. We were so stagnant last season coming out of the backline because we were a ball carrier short but also a ball carrier light in midfield.

 

[dazbroncos]

Funny you say that Blitz has always reminded me of Handley.

Wasn't one a b class rookie and the other a rd 1 pick?

Fair difference
Go Catters

 

[BlightysCats]

Wasn't one a b class rookie and the other a rd 1 pick?

Go Catters

Not sure what that has to do with their mutual poor performances in the blue and white?

 

[BlightysCats]

We play way too many tall players so Blicavs isn't really targeted. Statistically we take three times as many contested marks as the next best team (Sydney) and because we play such a tall line up we shoe horn Blicavs into using gut running to find space. He doesn't really have the speed to be effective nor are his foot skills penetrating enough to be an outside mid.

Really IMO we should only play three talls in the defence (Henderson, Lonergan, Kolodjashnij & Taylor) and two in midfield predominantly as ruckmen (Smith, Stanley, Blicavs). It will do my head in if we play the three talls in midfield and four talls in defence again this season. We were so stagnant last season coming out of the backline because we were a ball carrier short but also a ball carrier light in midfield.

Completely agree, I hope the Dogs winning the flag has finally convinced Scott that speed, versatility, and an ability to be quick on the outside while also tough in the contest is what wins you flags now, not slow lumbering height.

 

[bulletproof]

Wasn't one a b class rookie and the other a rd 1 pick?

Fair difference
Go Catters

And one has won a best and fairest...