List Mgmt. 2017 Trade & FA Targets Part 2

[The_Steadier]

Josh Kelly alone will never win us a flag.
If we are that reliant on one sensational kid to get us over the line , guess whats gonna happen ? He will get knocked the F@#k out.
The flag will be won by his 21 evenly spread team mates with good skills .

Haven't you ever watched a grand final?

Flags are won by winning grand finals.

Grand finals are often won off the back of individual brilliance by superstars

 

[stfan]

By the way .....Brisbane & Hawthorn premiership teams had even spread of players .

Both teams in their successful eras has some out and out superstars.

Voss, Black, Akermanis were no Charmans/ Hadleys/ Caracellas


Very good players elevate your not so good players. This is a big reason why Premiership Teams can fall off cliffs. Their stars fade and then their average players get exposed.

St Kilda lacks guns at present.

 

[Yawkey way]

I'm unsure how 2 picks that could be good or poor is better than Kelly who we know is at least an A grader and maybe a champion. If we lose our 2 first rounders for Kelly we have done fantastic. Kelly, Long, Battle for maybe pick 9 and 10. Looks good to me.

This is the conundrum you have just used two first rounders plus one million in cap space, your next pick is the third round.

Kelly makes us a lot better but not enough to solve my puzzle. You mention battle and long I think they were picks 39 and 25? That's a second and an early third. At present we have no idea if they will make it, they have only just walked in the door but the odds say they will be good ordinary players at best.

We have one ageing champion, one a grade mid and one potential AA key back, maybe six players who look like they could become a graders billings, roberton and 4 more depending on how they come on.

Working on the basis that you have to trade quality to get quality, every top pick we get costs us a top player. I have been told that it is a ridiculous dream to expect a restricted free agent to actually be free in terms of picks so forget that route, so,where does that leave us?.

 

[Yawkey way]

Haven't you ever watched a grand final?

Flags are won by winning grand finals.

Grand finals are often won off the back of individual brilliance by superstars

Brisbane is probably the best side I have seen in terms of champions and depth.

 

[StCicatriz]

This is the conundrum you have just used two first rounders plus one million in cap space, your next pick is the third round.

Kelly makes us a lot better but not enough to solve my puzzle. You mention battle and long I think they were picks 39 and 25? That's a second and an early third. At present we have no idea if they will make it, they have only just walked in the door but the odds say they will be good ordinary players at best.

We have one ageing champion, one a grade mid and one potential AA key back, maybe six players who look like they could become a graders billings, roberton and 4 more depending on how they come on.

Working on the basis that you have to trade quality to get quality, every top pick we get costs us a top player. I have been told that it is a ridiculous dream to expect a restricted free agent to actually be free in terms of picks so forget that route, so,where does that leave us?.

Whats the best example you've got from us hitting the draft when it comes to midfielders

Also how do you rate this draft class?

 

[Crusty Undies]

This is the conundrum you have just used two first rounders plus one million in cap space, your next pick is the third round.

Kelly makes us a lot better but not enough to solve my puzzle. You mention battle and long I think they were picks 39 and 25? That's a second and an early third. At present we have no idea if they will make it, they have only just walked in the door but the odds say they will be good ordinary players at best.

We have one ageing champion, one a grade mid and one potential AA key back, maybe six players who look like they could become a graders billings, roberton and 4 more depending on how they come on.

Working on the basis that you have to trade quality to get quality, every top pick we get costs us a top player. I have been told that it is a ridiculous dream to expect a restricted free agent to actually be free in terms of picks so forget that route, so,where does that leave us?.

I do agree that we don't quite have the talent yet but I think you're being a bit harsh...
Roo, Steven and Carlisle are not it. Robbo is for sure in AA form and is now in the top 3-4 hbfs in the comp. Ross has surpassed Steven in my eyes, gets as much of the ball and uses it well. If Billings keeps up his form of the last month he is a grade. Acres has games where he plays like Pendles and others where he doesn't. Steele looks like the next Mundy at the rate he's going. We still have list cloggers and about 5 too many bog average ruckmen but we're not Brisbane...

 

[stfan]

Remind me of how many flags Judd won Carlton , Ablett won Suns , Dangerfield won Geelong , Franklin won Sydney.
I can only think of one Tom Boyd and they got their flag through top end picks and good timing .

Ok. Lets look at the flags teams who won flags since 2007 in recent years that targeted to get good players in positions that they most needed.

Dogs: Boyd
Hawks....a long list of players recruited for needs: Borgoyne, Lake, Frawley,. McEvoy, Gunston
Cats: Ottens...
Sydney 2012: Mummy, Kennedy, Shaw
Sydney 2005 Jolly
Pies: Jolly

So that is every Premiership since 2007 has had a player brought in to address a particular need, a particular flaw.

Saints have been rebuilding for a while and have built a good list, but not a great list. In particular we lack top end talent.

Now as to my faith in the Saints Recruiting Team through the draft picking that out and out gun?

Paddy over Petracca
Billings over Bont
Lonie over Danield
Dunstan over Merrett


So yes if we gain two top 10 picks this year I would be more than happy to swap them both for Kelly based on:
1/ He is exactly what we need
2/ We know Kelly is a gun vs someone that may be a gun. The odds of them being as good as Kelly are slight
3/ Our drafting record is not the best
4/ With whatever picks we will have it is lucky dip as to what the best available player will be at that pick. ie say it is a ruck, how does that help us?

Getting Kelly is not a quick fix. Getting Kelly is the latest step, amongst many in rebuilding our list. There will be other steps too, and other players by draft or trade will join the Saints in 2017. but gaining a player such as Kelly is an important step, and perhaps a crucial step.

 

[StCicatriz]

The biggest issue we have is run and spread through the midfield this extends to defencive running. Sides just cut us up. The other issue we have is ball use.

Kelly addresses all those things and more. If you can get him, you get him and don't look back!

If it's two first rounders you just do it. It's a known entity that is still very young is yet to his peak and had a good 8 years of football left in him

I reckon we would have traded two first rounders for him in his draft year if we could have. That's how much we rate him

Picking up another bloke in the same age bracket as Billings Ross steele etc is very smart as you are building a list in the same age demographic which is key part of building a premiership list. Plus we have kelly whilst Steven roberton and Carlisle are still playing good football

On the flip side if we take two picks to the draft we don't have any guarantee they will end up anywhere near as good as kelly. If what our form is to date the best we can hope for is a fwd in gresham or Billings who have been our best first round selections to date but neither are spending the minutes in the midfield similar to other players who have broken out as mids. Or we get a mid like Ross who took 4 years to show some good form albeit still not as good as kelly

 

[plugger66]

This is the conundrum you have just used two first rounders plus one million in cap space, your next pick is the third round.

Kelly makes us a lot better but not enough to solve my puzzle. You mention battle and long I think they were picks 39 and 25? That's a second and an early third. At present we have no idea if they will make it, they have only just walked in the door but the odds say they will be good ordinary players at best.

We have one ageing champion, one a grade mid and one potential AA key back, maybe six players who look like they could become a graders billings, roberton and 4 more depending on how they come on.

Working on the basis that you have to trade quality to get quality, every top pick we get costs us a top player. I have been told that it is a ridiculous dream to expect a restricted free agent to actually be free in terms of picks so forget that route, so,where does that leave us?.

So how does to unknowns help us any better than a potential champion? And why would a potential FA cost us picks. Maybe Martin and Fyfe but I expect both to stay. Most FA are just that, free.

 

[Rors]

Haven't you ever watched a grand final?

Flags are won by winning grand finals.

Grand finals are often won off the back of individual brilliance by superstars

And lost by having a shit bottom 6

 

[Diehard Saint]

Getting Kelly is not a quick fix. Getting Kelly is the latest step, amongst many in rebuilding our list. There will be other steps too, and other players by draft or trade will join the Saints in 2017. but gaining a player such as Kelly is an important step, and perhaps a crucial step.

Added to this is the very big plus of his age. Still 10+ years to play.

 

[Rors]

Ok. Lets look at the flags teams who won flags since 2007 in recent years that targeted to get good players in positions that they most needed.

Dogs: Boyd
Hawks....a long list of players recruited for needs: Borgoyne, Lake, Frawley,. McEvoy, Gunston
Cats: Ottens...
Sydney 2012: Mummy, Kennedy, Shaw
Sydney 2005 Jolly
Pies: Jolly

So that is every Premiership since 2007 has had a player brought in to address a particular need, a particular flaw.

Saints have been rebuilding for a while and have built a good list, but not a great list. In particular we lack top end talent.

Now as to my faith in the Saints Recruiting Team through the draft picking that out and out gun?

Paddy over Petracca
Billings over Bont
Lonie over Danield
Dunstan over Merrett


So yes if we gain two top 10 picks this year I would be more than happy to swap them both for Kelly based on:
1/ He is exactly what we need
2/ We know Kelly is a gun vs someone that may be a gun. The odds of them being as good as Kelly are slight
3/ Our drafting record is not the best
4/ With whatever picks we will have it is lucky dip as to what the best available player will be at that pick. ie say it is a ruck, how does that help us?

Getting Kelly is not a quick fix. Getting Kelly is the latest step, amongst many in rebuilding our list. There will be other steps too, and other players by draft or trade will join the Saints in 2017. but gaining a player such as Kelly is an important step, and perhaps a crucial step.

How could you forget Luke Ball above with Collingwood!?

 

[StCicatriz]

Added to this is the very big plus of his age. Still 10+ years to play.

This!!!! So much this!!! It's like basically out sourcing kelly's development to GWS instead of Sandringham. Hes just burst onto the scene after 3 seasons of development. Now we get the chance to take him and play him full time in the seniors

You'd be mad not to jump at that opportunity

We need to be smart about how we get players into the side be it drafting or trading. It doesn't matter how you get them but you need to get them.

 

[Yawkey way]

Dal santo and Montagna in 2001 were great gets 13 and 37 the goddards and balls etc were predictable in the sense that they were early picks.

steven was a great get at 42 their the ones that make a difference an a grader from outside the top 10 - 20.

This years draft, who knows ?. I only watch the championships on the tv these days I haven't been in person for a decade. All I know is that every year next years crop gets talked up, it's like surfing you should have been here on Wednesday.

We have some real grunt on the inside now and we aren't great but we're no basket case either so if we bring in young midfielders they won't be thrown in the deep end.

 

[Diehard Saint]

This!!!! So much this!!! It's like basically out sourcing kelly's development to GWS instead of Sandringham. Hes just burst onto the scene after 3 seasons of development. Now we get the chance to take him and play him full time in the seniors

You'd be mad not to jump at that opportunity

We need to be smart about how we get players into the side be it drafting or trading. It doesn't matter how you get them but you need to get them.

Just Do It ( not quite the swoosh, but you get my drift I'm sure )

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

The biggest issue we have is run and spread through the midfield this extends to defencive running. Sides just cut us up. The other issue we have is ball use.

Kelly addresses all those things and more. If you can get him, you get him and don't look back!

If it's two first rounders you just do it. It's a known entity that is still very young is yet to his peak and had a good 8 years of football left in him

I reckon we would have traded two first rounders for him in his draft year if we could have. That's how much we rate him

Picking up another bloke in the same age bracket as Billings Ross steele etc is very smart as you are building a list in the same age demographic which is key part of building a premiership list. Plus we have kelly whilst Steven roberton and Carlisle are still playing good football

On the flip side if we take two picks to the draft we don't have any guarantee they will end up anywhere near as good as kelly. If what our form is to date the best we can hope for is a fwd in gresham or Billings who have been our best first round selections to date but neither are spending the minutes in the midfield similar to other players who have broken out as mids. Or we get a mid like Ross who took 4 years to show some good form albeit still not as good as kelly

So you think we should get Kelly?

 

[plugger66]

Dal santo and Montagna in 2001 were great gets 13 and 37 the goddards and balls etc were predictable in the sense that they were early picks.

steven was a great get at 42 their the ones that make a difference an a grader from outside the top 10 - 20.

This years draft, who knows ?. I only watch the championships on the tv these days I haven't been in person for a decade. All I know is that every year next years crop gets talked up, it's like surfing you should have been here on Wednesday.

We have some real grunt on the inside now and we aren't great but we're no basket case either so if we bring in young midfielders they won't be thrown in the deep end.

I don't quite understand the point of the post. We may still get good players with lower picks. We may get Raph and Xavier Clarke with higher picks. We do know we get a potential champion with 2 higher picks.

 

[STK2020]

Ok. Lets look at the flags teams who won flags since 2007 in recent years that targeted to get good players in positions that they most needed.

Dogs: Boyd
Hawks....a long list of players recruited for needs: Borgoyne, Lake, Frawley,. McEvoy, Gunston
Cats: Ottens...
Sydney 2012: Mummy, Kennedy, Shaw
Sydney 2005 Jolly
Pies: Jolly

So that is every Premiership since 2007 has had a player brought in to address a particular need, a particular flaw.

Saints have been rebuilding for a while and have built a good list, but not a great list. In particular we lack top end talent.

Now as to my faith in the Saints Recruiting Team through the draft picking that out and out gun?

Paddy over Petracca
Billings over Bont
Lonie over Danield
Dunstan over Merrett


So yes if we gain two top 10 picks this year I would be more than happy to swap them both for Kelly based on:
1/ He is exactly what we need
2/ We know Kelly is a gun vs someone that may be a gun. The odds of them being as good as Kelly are slight
3/ Our drafting record is not the best
4/ With whatever picks we will have it is lucky dip as to what the best available player will be at that pick. ie say it is a ruck, how does that help us?

Getting Kelly is not a quick fix. Getting Kelly is the latest step, amongst many in rebuilding our list. There will be other steps too, and other players by draft or trade will join the Saints in 2017. but gaining a player such as Kelly is an important step, and perhaps a crucial step.

Yes yes , how many of those mentioned players cost 1.4 mill per season and cost their new club 2 x 1st round picks ?

 

[STK2020]

I would personally rather cough up all our picks for Kelly and Whitfield and spread the risk .

 

[plugger66]

I would personally rather cough up all our picks for Kelly and Whitfield and spread the risk .

But that wouldn't get them.

 

[STK2020]

But that wouldn't get them.

And neither will we . Hypothetically speaking.

 

[Crusty Undies]

If it's two first rounders you just do it. It's a known entity that is still very young is yet to his peak and had a good 8 years of football left in him

No. No you don't. This is the strain of thought that lead Hawthorn to overpay for JOM. You pay what you think they're worth and not a cent more. If you're paying someone more than they're worth, you're paying someone else less than they're worth.

This idea of just giving Kelly 1.5 and giving GWS both firsts this year is paying overs. Some people will argue it's not but it is. Kelly is worth at most our first this year and next. And maybe 1.2 mil. Any more than that is overs in my eyes. He's not the messiah, he's not the saviour and he's not going to singlehandedly win us a cup with 21 other underpaid scrubs around him.

 

[Cornish]

Another dream.

Dusty will not be going anywhere IMO. Richmond simply cannot afford to lose him now either onfield or off. Richmond will match any FA offer unless it was so ridiculous that it would also castrate the club that made it.

And why at present would Dusty choose the Saints over the Tigers?

Yes Kelly clubs, including the Saints, have a chance of getting as 1/ GWS cannot pay him anywhere near his market worth, and 2/ reportedly he wants to return to Melbourne.

I just said "yes please", after watching both perform on the weekend. I don't dream of anything, i am a realest, if it happens it happens, but i don't think IMHO we will get either of them. It would be good if it happened that we got Jelly, he would have to be the shortest odds, although hes still a long shot, Martin we wont get, he would be 1000-1 on.

Who knows what the future holds? i certainly wont be wandering around the forum trying to predict it, or losing any sleep over it, there's more important things in life than giving 2 hoots about who we will pickup at the end of the season.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Yes yes , how many of those mentioned players cost 1.4 mill per season and cost their new club 2 x 1st round picks ?

We have specifically done the work on the TPP to have a bucketload of cash available for this very thing.

As far as giving up 2 first round picks, let's remember that one of these is a
"bonus" at this stage. Yes, it has an element of risk to go all in, but no risk, no reward, and really we know exactly what Kelly is and can be. I never wanted to risk it with JOM and his injuries, but going for Kelly is a very educated risk.

As I mentioned before, this is not just for a short term fix considering his age. He'll help set us up for the next decade.

Let's be bold!

 

[STK2020]

When are we in our premiership window?
Currently our existing team will look nothing like what we will roll out in 2020 .
My opinion but i reckon we need 2-3 defenders , 2 midfielders, 2 forwards with three draft/ trade periods before the start of 2020 season .