List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[alfo]

As one of the blues podcasts said in the last week or two, SPS doesn’t have a deep penetrating kick that the best half backs have, but his short kick is very very good. We need SPS being the guy who kicks into our forward 50 - who gets to lower his eyes and pick the best option available. So we need to get the ball into his hands - basically make him the last in the chain before a forward marks it within the 50. It will be an important role especially as we potentially will have a very potent forward line with multiple targets all possibly heading in different directions to create multiple one on one contests. Good luck to any defense trying to stop SPS and our forward line.


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As part of my follow up to the SPS rant, I did say I liked SPS forward. High HF should be his spot, and doing exactly as you mentioned. Short inside 50 kicks. Doing short kicks 25m kicks from defense gets us nowhere.

 

[Gethelred]

You forgot to mention he lacks half the effort & intensity of all of the players you mentioned. DangerousD's follow up is spot on, as he addresses that though also points out he has only put on 2kgs in 4 years. That isn't going to cut it, he gets bullied when he goes up against bigger bodies.

Sooner you accept it, sooner you'll be able to move on. I did, I feel much better.

Really just kind of lazy. You've just restated your argument - which is nothing more than your opinion in the first place - and you haven't actually answered or countered anything I've said in my post.

I have a question for you, though. How much of early Burgoyne and Mitchel do you remember? Burgoyne at Port, and Mitchel off half back? Because both of them fought off accusations of being laconic, not putting in, not going hard enough.

You're welcome to your point of view.

 

[Cripptonite]

Why?

He's not our player. The opportunity may well have passed us. He clearly still wants to come back to Victoria; there is but a single reason Sydney are trying to direct every single entry they have through a small forward, regardless of his skill level.

This isn't a situation in which we don't know what we had until it left, because he was never ours to begin with. There is no sliding doors here.

I understand your logic but I already feel sick watching him tear it up for Sydney knowing that he should be in navy blue. A player of that calibre rarely nominates to come to your club and we were robbed of that chance by the ****s from Windy Hill. They shot themselves in the foot but we were collateral damage.

If Paps comes this year, then that will remedy the pain I’m sure!

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Bro, none of Ben Jacobs, Ben Cunnington, Luke McDonald, Jy Simpkin, Jared Polec, Todd Goldstien, Robbie Tarrant, Tarryn Thomas, or Cam Zurhaar interest you? I'm not saying we should get any of these players but come on, saying there is NOTHING interesting is a bit of a stretch.

Jy Simpkin...

 

[Eiffel 65]

I understand your logic but I already feel sick watching him tear it up for Sydney knowing that he should be in navy blue. A player of that calibre rarely nominates to come to your club and we were robbed of that chance by the ****s from Windy Hill. They shot themselves in the foot but we were collateral damage.

If Paps comes this year, then that will remedy the pain I’m sure!

Ummm, he didn't kick a goal tonight.

Spent half the game in the midfield and only gathered 10 disposals.

Massively overrated. Will be a mistake coughing up 2 x first round selections for him.

You can only hand out so many million dollar contracts to players before the cap squeeze comes. It would be far smarter to find an elite FB as a long term replacement for Jones or an elite midfielder than will make us more competitive against the more dominant midfields of the competition.

 

[Jeremias]

Ummm, he didn't kick a goal tonight.

Spent half the game in the midfield and only gathered 10 disposals.

Massively overrated. Will be a mistake coughing up 2 x first round selections for him.

You can only hand out so many million dollar contracts to players before the cap squeeze comes. It would be far smarter to find an elite FB as a long term replacement for Jones or an elite midfielder than will make us more competitive against the more dominant midfields of the competition.

Papley was excellent tonight.

Didn't kick a goal nor did he get much of the ball, but his intensity and effort was first class all evening.

He's a terrific footballer, and it's a great sign that he can have a serious impact on the contest even if things aren't going all his way.

Not sure where the million dollar contract is coming from either. Has there been any suggestion that's what he'll be looking for?

 

[Juddernaut08]

*PAPLEY WATCH*

With Blakey back and the Swans forwardline starting to have more targets, it will be interesting to monitor Papley's output.

No doubt he is a gun but I do think his numbers have been higher this season since he has been the sole target he majority of the time.

With any luck, it will bring his true value back to normal so we can pick him up at trade time.

0.3 tonight with 10 disposals and 3 tackles...in a big win.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Papley was excellent tonight.

Didn't kick a goal nor did he get much of the ball, but his intensity and effort was first class all evening.

He's a terrific footballer, and it's a great sign that he can have a serious impact on the contest even if things aren't going all his way.

Not sure where the million dollar contract is coming from either. Has there been any suggestion that's what he'll be looking for?

Effort and intensity should be a non-negotiable when playing at the level. That doesn't, nor should it influence the value of a player. Output is the only thing I'm interest in, otherwise you can justify any price for any player.

If clubs were offering up to $900k last year (North Melbourne) and people are saying his value has gone up, one can only assume $1m will be on the table, especially when we're declaring an "all-out assult" to lure him from Sydney.

Let me put it this way, you can't have $1.6-1.8m tied up in Papley and McGovern, two low output players and expect to contend for a flag. It's a misallocation of resources. If your game plan structures up around 3 high priced key forwards, they should be your primary targets and kicking the majority of your goals, not the small forwards.

We've got enough money tied up in our forward line with McKay, Curnow, McGovern and Martin. We need to allocate more funds across the ground to remain competitive.

Bottom line, for the way we play, we shouldn't be throwing all our chips at a small forward. That says to me that we've got no idea what we're doing.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Don't worry, we're not playing in a grand final this season.

No camps either then.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

So when are we getting a draft thread? Surely we need one to start learning the names of possible inclusions. Might be hard to find footage of underage players but it would be good to know the small/medium forwards available and where they were projected to go.

Whos Murphy from Collingwood? Has anyone seen him play, what position?

Just read, he’s a third tall, not sure how that suits us, but we will see.

He’s a similar size and style as Will Hayward from Swans... can play medium forward or defender good mark safe hands, very good kicking skills, he’s a good reader of play gets too the right areas smart player...

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

He’s a similar size and style as Will Hayward from Swans... can play medium forward or defender good mark safe hands, very good kicking skills, he’s a good reader of play gets too the right areas smart player...

Just to add, agree his not exactly the type of player we need myself...

 

[Cripptonite]

Effort and intensity should be a non-negotiable when playing at the level. That doesn't, nor should it influence the value of a player. Output is the only thing I'm interest in, otherwise you can justify any price for any player.

If clubs were offering up to $900k last year (North Melbourne) and people are saying his value has gone up, one can only assume $1m will be on the table, especially when we're declaring an "all-out assult" to lure him from Sydney.

Let me put it this way, you can't have $1.6-1.8m tied up in Papley and McGovern, two low output players and expect to contend for a flag. It's a misallocation of resources. If your game plan structures up around 3 high priced key forwards, they should be your primary targets and kicking the majority of your goals, not the small forwards.

We've got enough money tied up in our forward line with McKay, Curnow, McGovern and Martin. We need to allocate more funds across the ground to remain competitive.

Bottom line, for the way we play, we shouldn't be throwing all our chips at a small forward. That says to me that we've got no idea what we're doing.

There are different levels of intensity and effort, Papley is the sort of player who makes the opposition panic and brings the pressure and support allowing team mates time and space with the ball inside 50. That is invaluable output that won’t show up on the stat sheet. In any case he is close to leading the Coleman in a rubbish side and also kicked 40 goals last year whilst playing some midfield time

He is a game breaker like a Cyril Rioli who didn’t need heaps of possessions to cut a team apart. He’s the kind of player that could be the difference between winning and losing a game.

In regards to money being tied up in forwards, along with midfielders they get paid the most because they win games. It’s rare that backmen get paid extravagant amounts. Regardless it’s about building a team to win, the pay doesn’t matter so much as the team is a sum of its parts. Identify opportunities to improve and grow, Papley brings that in my opinion.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

All is not well between Lachie Hunter and the dogs apparently, very good footballer and a ball magnet to boot.

Wouldn’t mind seeing what it would take to get him


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[BlueView]

Just sped read through the thread but. He’s polarising is Cam Polson.Headless chook

 

[Eiffel 65]

There are different levels of intensity and effort, Papley is the sort of player who makes the opposition panic and brings the pressure and support allowing team mates time and space with the ball inside 50. That is invaluable output that won’t show up on the stat sheet. In any case he is close to leading the Coleman in a rubbish side and also kicked 40 goals last year whilst playing some midfield time

He is a game breaker like a Cyril Rioli who didn’t need heaps of possessions to cut a team apart. He’s the kind of player that could be the difference between winning and losing a game.

In regards to money being tied up in forwards, along with midfielders they get paid the most because they win games. It’s rare that backmen get paid extravagant amounts. Regardless it’s about building a team to win, the pay doesn’t matter so much as the team is a sum of its parts. Identify opportunities to improve and grow, Papley brings that in my opinion.

Papley's kicking goals because he's the only target they're kicking too.

Not on the same level as Cyril for mine. His disposal is average at best.

Not saying he's a bad player and that he won't make us better. I'm saying that given our current allocation of resources, we need to target other areas of the ground.

Running defenders are worth their weight in gold. Our transition out of the back line has been terrible over the past month and has no doubt coincided with some unpalatable losses. We need to fix this issue first with the assets we have available to us, as well as acquire more midfield power.

 

[Eiffel 65]

All is not well between Lachie Hunter and the dogs apparently, very good footballer and a ball magnet to boot.

Wouldn’t mind seeing what it would take to get him


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They're desperate for another tall forward. How about we trade McGovern for Hunter. Sound fair?

 

[BlueZombie]

Papley's kicking goals because he's the only target they're kicking too.

Not on the same level as Cyril for mine. His disposal is average at best.

Not saying he's a bad player and that he won't make us better. I'm saying that given our current allocation of resources, we need to target other areas of the ground.

Running defenders are worth their weight in gold. Our transition out of the back line has been terrible over the past month and has no doubt coincided with some unpalatable losses. We need to fix this issue first with the assets we have available to us, as well as acquire more midfield power.

I agree. Papley would be fantastic but midfield power must come first. And, even though I think we could bring in a good running defender from our own stocks, someone like a Williams, for instance, would be terrific if we were able to swing it. Having said that though I honestly reckon our forward line in the next year or two, is going to be the envy of every other club in the comp. No doubt whatsoever in saying that. Just wait and see. 17 may be closer than we think.

 

[Jeremias]

I'm going to break this up into pieces Eiffel 65 because I think there are a lot of wrong assumptions here that need to be addressed individually.

Effort and intensity should be a non-negotiable when playing at the level. That doesn't, nor should it influence the value of a player. Output is the only thing I'm interest in, otherwise you can justify any price for any player.

Of course effort and intensity have an influence on what a player is worth. You can have all the talent in the world, it matters not if you don't have the drive or will to succeed.

Papley is terrific with ball in hand, but his value (we're not talking financial here) skyrockets if he can have a significant impact on the contest outside the stat sheet. He did that tonight. It wasn't the first time he's done it and it won't be the last.

He didn't kick a goal tonight, and he only had the 10 touches, yet he was clearly one of the best players on the ground. The game is about so much more than basic statistical output.

If clubs were offering up to $900k last year (North Melbourne) and people are saying his value has gone up, one can only assume $1m will be on the table, especially when we're declaring an "all-out assult" to lure him from Sydney.

North Melbourne? So the Roos come in with a godfather offer because they're desperate and they are now the benchmark?

Papley was keen on Carlton last year, not North Melbourne, so I couldn't care less what any other club offered him.

There is absolutely no indication that he wanted to move for money, so what North Melbourne supposedly offered him is completely irrelevant.

It's also complete guess work - leave that to the Herald Sun.

Let me put it this way, you can't have $1.6-1.8m tied up in Papley and McGovern, two low output players and expect to contend for a flag. It's a misallocation of resources. If your game plan structures up around 3 high priced key forwards, they should be your primary targets and kicking the majority of your goals, not the small forwards.

"Low output".

A two goal per game small forward (1.5 over the course of a 100 game career to date) is hardly low output.

I'm not sure why you seem to be suggesting he can't excel in a forward line with three tall forwards around him, that again seems pure guess work. He hasn't always been the #1 target at the Swans and he was a bloody good footballer prior to 2020.

We've got enough money tied up in our forward line with McKay, Curnow, McGovern and Martin. We need to allocate more funds across the ground to remain competitive.

So we chased Papley, Coniglio, Martin last year, and only landed one of them, yet we're now all of a sudden going to struggle to allocate funds appropriately across the park if we land another a year later?

That doesn't sound right to me.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate we'll struggle to distribute funds appropriately across the park.

Bottom line, for the way we play, we shouldn't be throwing all our chips at a small forward. That says to me that we've got no idea what we're doing.

We're not throwing all our chips at a small forward.

He was a target (one of many) last year and there's every reason to suggest he'll be a target (one of many) again at the end of this year.

And there's absolutely no reason to shy away from bringing quality footballers like Tom to the club. None. Zero. The list management team wouldn't be doing their jobs properly if they did.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Just sped read through the thread but. He’s polarising is Cam Polson.Headless chook

I thought he was totes crap as a forward.

But if he has reinvented himself as a speedy backman he's worth a shot.

Look what happened to Liam Jones when he went from fwd to back.

Im skeptical of Polson til it happens, but he has a penetrating kick from memory, hes quick and plays with high energy. Would bring a different dynamic to the backline: speed.

 

[Jeremias]

Papley's kicking goals because he's the only target they're kicking too.

This year sure, but he's been a very good for a longer period of time than just this season, and it's an absolute fallacy to suggest he's always been the #1 target.

 

[CaressMyBlues]

I thought he was totes crap as a forward.

But if he has reinvented himself as a speedy backman he's worth a shot.

Look what happened to Liam Jones when he went from fwd to back.

Im skeptical of Polson til it happens, but he has a penetrating kick from memory, hes quick and plays with high energy. Would bring a different dynamic to the backline: speed.

Would be the greatest shock in modern Carlton history if Polson reinvented himself as a speedy backman that can be depended on.

I'd like to see him at least tried, but can't see it happening unless someone gets injured.

Papley's kicking goals because he's the only target they're kicking too.

Not on the same level as Cyril for mine. His disposal is average at best.

Not saying he's a bad player and that he won't make us better. I'm saying that given our current allocation of resources, we need to target other areas of the ground.

Running defenders are worth their weight in gold. Our transition out of the back line has been terrible over the past month and has no doubt coincided with some unpalatable losses. We need to fix this issue first with the assets we have available to us, as well as acquire more midfield power.

Papley won't be the messiah, 30-40 goal small forward that has GOOD high pressure acts and can sniff a crumb a mile away, I'll take that any-day of the week thanks.

Agreed we need speed, would be going after Williams heavily. Kelly and Cameron will gobble up enough cap space.

I'm sure there are other speedy half-back flankers that are available too, god speed in the trade period Austin.

 

[BlueView]

There are different levels of intensity and effort, Papley is the sort of player who makes the opposition panic and brings the pressure and support allowing team mates time and space with the ball inside 50. That is invaluable output that won’t show up on the stat sheet. In any case he is close to leading the Coleman in a rubbish side and also kicked 40 goals last year whilst playing some midfield time

He is a game breaker like a Cyril Rioli who didn’t need heaps of possessions to cut a team apart. He’s the kind of player that could be the difference between winning and losing a game.

In regards to money being tied up in forwards, along with midfielders they get paid the most because they win games. It’s rare that backmen get paid extravagant amounts. Regardless it’s about building a team to win, the pay doesn’t matter so much as the team is a sum of its parts. Identify opportunities to improve and grow, Papley brings that in my opinion.

Tbh I think thats fair

I thought he was totes crap as a forward.

But if he has reinvented himself as a speedy backman he's worth a shot.

Look what happened to Liam Jones when he went from fwd to back.

Im skeptical of Polson til it happens, but he has a penetrating kick from memory, hes quick and plays with high energy. Would bring a different dynamic to the backline: speed.

Turnover merchant, I’ve seen enough.
Speed yes, so what how does it translate? We’re trying to build something here, he’s miles off an AFL player.


And I’m not trying to hack on him either, but it must be hard to be good player at the level, not the CFCs problem

 

[Eiffel 65]

I'm going to break this up into pieces Eiffel 65 because I think there are a lot of wrong assumptions here that need to be addressed individually.



Of course effort and intensity have an influence on what a player is worth. You can have all the talent in the world, it matters not if you don't have the drive or will to succeed.

Papley is terrific with ball in hand, but his value (we're not talking financial here) skyrockets if he can have a significant impact on the contest outside the stat sheet. He did that tonight. It wasn't the first time he's done it and it won't be the last.

He didn't kick a goal tonight, and he only had the 10 touches, yet he was clearly one of the best players on the ground. The game is about so much more than basic statistical output.



North Melbourne? So the Roos come in with a godfather offer because they're desperate and they are now the benchmark?

Papley was keen on Carlton last year, not North Melbourne, so I couldn't care less what any other club offered him.

There is absolutely no indication that he wanted to move for money, so what North Melbourne supposedly offered him is completely irrelevant.

It's also complete guess work - leave that to the Herald Sun.



"Low output".

A two goal per game small forward (1.5 over the course of a 100 game career to date) is hardly low output.

I'm not sure why you seem to be suggesting he can't excel in a forward line with three tall forwards around him, that again seems pure guess work. He hasn't always been the #1 target at the Swans and he was a bloody good footballer prior to 2020.



So we chased Papley, Coniglio, Martin last year, and only landed one of them, yet we're now all of a sudden going to struggle to allocate funds appropriately across the park if we land another a year later?

That doesn't sound right to me.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate we'll struggle to distribute funds appropriately across the park.



We're not throwing all our chips at a small forward.

He was a target (one of many) last year and there's every reason to suggest he'll be a target (one of many) again at the end of this year.

And there's absolutely no reason to shy away from bringing quality footballers like Tom to the club. None. Zero. The list management team wouldn't be doing their jobs properly if they did.

If you want a small forward buzzing with energy around the contest, find a Puopolo type. Not going to cost you an arm and a leg. I personally want us to target Ian Hill. He has elite disposal, speed and a knack for finding goals too.

Keep in mind that when Walsh, Stocker, Kemp and a few others come off their rookie contracts, we'll need to allocate cap space for them too.

Yes, he's a great player, but he's a moments player. We have Martin, McGovern, Cuningham and Fisher (when playing up forward) to be moments guys. If we have a stronger midfield and better ball movers in our back half, the output of these players will increase as the quality of supply improves. People here automatically say we need a better small forward to kick more goals. What I'm saying is that we can potentially solve this issue by rectifying the problem at the source, being the supply and ball movement between defense to attack.

When I'm talking about output, I want consistent output that keeps you in games for 4 quarters. 2nd and 3rd quarters tonight you barely noticed Papley was on the ground.

I can deduce his output will be lower should he come to us. Like I said, he's playing as a primary target for the Swans in the absence of Franklin, Heeney and Reid. He will not be a primary target in our team. With reduced supply, you'd expect his output to drop.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Personally hoping we pull off something along the lines of...

Laird > First/second depending how he finishes the year
Witherden > 2nd rounder
Josh Kelly/Williams - Both elite in their own right, tipping one will stay and one will go. Would cost an arm and a leg.
Daniel Rioli > Richmond small forward squeeze continues, same situation as Butler.

Papley just looks to be too expensive, too important... but who knows whats going to happen with him.


Witherden Jones Plowman
Doch Weitering Laird

Walsh Cripps LoB
Pitt Kelly Setters

Martin Mckay Rioli
Mcgov Charlie Fisher

Dow Kemp Casboult Ed/Murph

I'm hoping Simmo and Betts hang up the boots come end of year, as much as I love both it's probably better to have some different options in at this point as their outputs will likely be more or the same, same with Murph and Ed but I don't think you can move them all on at once and I'd rather have Murph and Ed for the young midfield brigade just in case.

Think that would give our Forward line a real burst of speed with Fisher Rioli and Martin and our backline some serious users of the ball instead of relying on Doc so much.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

That being said I get the feeling that this year will be the year some of our young boys get plucked from under us. I'd be disappointed to see any of them go but realistically when you pick a whole array of players, some turn out the way you expect them to and some dont. We might be better off seeing them ride off into the sunset to fulfill different roles at different clubs and use the picks we could get on addressing some of our list needs which they don't fill.