List Mgmt. 2020 Trade Thread - Part II

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Lightsxo said:
There’s a crows supporter on the main board who is a genuine nuffie approaching the Bulldogs supporter we all love.

He wanted Jack Steele and 2021 first rounder for Brad Crouch.

I’ll try to find it.
Click to expand...

Sounds fair ....... NOT!!!
 
Ok here is a thought I have had for a while, so please take it in the spirit of half baked conspiracies, but one that, yes you can see possibly happened.

As we are all aware Ben King at the end of his first season (2019) with the Gold Coast Suns signed on for a further two year extension, to his initial two year starting contract. That has him contracted to the Suns to the end of 2022. There was massive speculation at the time, that he would at the end of 2020, ask for a transfer back to St Kilda. His brother was living out their childhood dream at St Kilda and there was huge media and online speculation as to whether this would happen or not.

Gold Coast at that time, had another wheel barrow full of draft picks, with the ongoing fear that none of them would stay and that they would do, as so many had before them and leave to interstate clubs. It was reported after Ben signed the contract extension for a further two years, that his father had in fact approached Simon Lethlean for advice. Lethlean told him that this was a sensational offer and that he should accept it.

BUT..... is that the whole story. As we all know Lethlean and his football list management henchmen are always looking at options, choices, Plan B, Plan C etc. Yes it is very conceivable that he gave Ben's father that advice, but wouldn't it have made sense to also advise Bens father, that Ben should protect himself and give himself an out clause, if it didn't work out there? If he didn't like it there, or was homesick and wanted to come back to Melbourne. Gold Coast needed Ben's signing as a catalyst to sign other players, to show the younger guys that its a huge positive to commit to a future at the Gold Coast.

If Ben leaves in the future thats a problem for future Gold Coast, not their immediate problem at the end of 2019. Thus would both parties have agreed to the additional two year term, with the proviso that if Ben wanted to go any at the end of Years 2, 3 and 4 he could do so with their blessing.

Gold Coast get their signature. It completely removes this weekly ongoing speculation as to whether he stays or goes. They also get clear air time to convince Ben to stay and be a long term part of the Gold Coast's future. They publicly can use his signing, to secure a host of other young recruits to commit to the Suns. Ben gets a great financial settlement and the security of this, plus the option that if he does want to come back to Melbourne and St Kilda, that he has a means of doing it. And Lethlean has helped and in playing the long game, has a possible future star with a clear pathway to St Kilda.

Even if all of this is a figment of my imagination, there is that little glimmer that maybe, just maybe, that is exactly how it all happened
 
St Neil said:
So who would Collingwood targeting with the cap space if Treloar leaves?
Click to expand...


Probably Ben King 😟
 
Sunshine Sainter said:
Ok here is a thought I have had for a while, so please take it in the spirit of half baked conspiracies, but one that, yes you can see possibly happened.

As we are all aware Ben King at the end of his first season (2019) with the Gold Coast Suns signed on for a further two year extension, to his initial two year starting contract. That has him contracted to the Suns to the end of 2022. There was massive speculation at the time, that he would at the end of 2020, ask for a transfer back to St Kilda. His brother was living out their childhood dream at St Kilda and there was huge media and online speculation as to whether this would happen or not.

Gold Coast at that time, had another wheel barrow full of draft picks, with the ongoing fear that none of them would stay and that they would do, as so many had before them and leave to interstate clubs. It was reported after Ben signed the contract extension for a further two years, that his father had in fact approached Simon Lethlean for advice. Lethlean told him that this was a sensational offer and that he should accept it.

BUT..... is that the whole story. As we all know Lethlean and his football list management henchmen are always looking at options, choices, Plan B, Plan C etc. Yes it is very conceivable that he gave Ben's father that advice, but wouldn't it have made sense to also advise Bens father, that Ben should protect himself and give himself an out clause, if it didn't work out there? If he didn't like it there, or was homesick and wanted to come back to Melbourne. Gold Coast needed Ben's signing as a catalyst to sign other players, to show the younger guys that its a huge positive to commit to a future at the Gold Coast.

If Ben leaves in the future thats a problem for future Gold Coast, not their immediate problem at the end of 2019. Thus would both parties have agreed to the additional two year term, with the proviso that if Ben wanted to go any at the end of Years 2, 3 and 4 he could do so with their blessing.

Gold Coast get their signature. It completely removes this weekly ongoing speculation as to whether he stays or goes. They also get clear air time to convince Ben to stay and be a long term part of the Gold Coast's future. They publicly can use his signing, to secure a host of other young recruits to commit to the Suns. Ben gets a great financial settlement and the security of this, plus the option that if he does want to come back to Melbourne and St Kilda, that he has a means of doing it. And Lethlean has helped and in playing the long game, has a possible future star with a clear pathway to St Kilda.

Even if all of this is a figment of my imagination, there is that little glimmer that maybe, just maybe, that is exactly how it all happened
Click to expand...
 
Sunshine Sainter said:
Ok here is a thought I have had for a while, so please take it in the spirit of half baked conspiracies, but one that, yes you can see possibly happened.

As we are all aware Ben King at the end of his first season (2019) with the Gold Coast Suns signed on for a further two year extension, to his initial two year starting contract. That has him contracted to the Suns to the end of 2022. There was massive speculation at the time, that he would at the end of 2020, ask for a transfer back to St Kilda. His brother was living out their childhood dream at St Kilda and there was huge media and online speculation as to whether this would happen or not.

Gold Coast at that time, had another wheel barrow full of draft picks, with the ongoing fear that none of them would stay and that they would do, as so many had before them and leave to interstate clubs. It was reported after Ben signed the contract extension for a further two years, that his father had in fact approached Simon Lethlean for advice. Lethlean told him that this was a sensational offer and that he should accept it.

BUT..... is that the whole story. As we all know Lethlean and his football list management henchmen are always looking at options, choices, Plan B, Plan C etc. Yes it is very conceivable that he gave Ben's father that advice, but wouldn't it have made sense to also advise Bens father, that Ben should protect himself and give himself an out clause, if it didn't work out there? If he didn't like it there, or was homesick and wanted to come back to Melbourne. Gold Coast needed Ben's signing as a catalyst to sign other players, to show the younger guys that its a huge positive to commit to a future at the Gold Coast.

If Ben leaves in the future thats a problem for future Gold Coast, not their immediate problem at the end of 2019. Thus would both parties have agreed to the additional two year term, with the proviso that if Ben wanted to go any at the end of Years 2, 3 and 4 he could do so with their blessing.

Gold Coast get their signature. It completely removes this weekly ongoing speculation as to whether he stays or goes. They also get clear air time to convince Ben to stay and be a long term part of the Gold Coast's future. They publicly can use his signing, to secure a host of other young recruits to commit to the Suns. Ben gets a great financial settlement and the security of this, plus the option that if he does want to come back to Melbourne and St Kilda, that he has a means of doing it. And Lethlean has helped and in playing the long game, has a possible future star with a clear pathway to St Kilda.

Even if all of this is a figment of my imagination, there is that little glimmer that maybe, just maybe, that is exactly how it all happened
Click to expand...
I expect this is pretty close to the pin. For Ben to sign with GC, he would have some understanding with them about how it ends. With Lethlean's advice, you could be very sure that was the case.
 
Sunshine Sainter said:
Ok here is a thought I have had for a while, so please take it in the spirit of half baked conspiracies, but one that, yes you can see possibly happened.

As we are all aware Ben King at the end of his first season (2019) with the Gold Coast Suns signed on for a further two year extension, to his initial two year starting contract. That has him contracted to the Suns to the end of 2022. There was massive speculation at the time, that he would at the end of 2020, ask for a transfer back to St Kilda. His brother was living out their childhood dream at St Kilda and there was huge media and online speculation as to whether this would happen or not.

Gold Coast at that time, had another wheel barrow full of draft picks, with the ongoing fear that none of them would stay and that they would do, as so many had before them and leave to interstate clubs. It was reported after Ben signed the contract extension for a further two years, that his father had in fact approached Simon Lethlean for advice. Lethlean told him that this was a sensational offer and that he should accept it.

BUT..... is that the whole story. As we all know Lethlean and his football list management henchmen are always looking at options, choices, Plan B, Plan C etc. Yes it is very conceivable that he gave Ben's father that advice, but wouldn't it have made sense to also advise Bens father, that Ben should protect himself and give himself an out clause, if it didn't work out there? If he didn't like it there, or was homesick and wanted to come back to Melbourne. Gold Coast needed Ben's signing as a catalyst to sign other players, to show the younger guys that its a huge positive to commit to a future at the Gold Coast.

If Ben leaves in the future thats a problem for future Gold Coast, not their immediate problem at the end of 2019. Thus would both parties have agreed to the additional two year term, with the proviso that if Ben wanted to go any at the end of Years 2, 3 and 4 he could do so with their blessing.

Gold Coast get their signature. It completely removes this weekly ongoing speculation as to whether he stays or goes. They also get clear air time to convince Ben to stay and be a long term part of the Gold Coast's future. They publicly can use his signing, to secure a host of other young recruits to commit to the Suns. Ben gets a great financial settlement and the security of this, plus the option that if he does want to come back to Melbourne and St Kilda, that he has a means of doing it. And Lethlean has helped and in playing the long game, has a possible future star with a clear pathway to St Kilda.

Even if all of this is a figment of my imagination, there is that little glimmer that maybe, just maybe, that is exactly how it all happened
Click to expand...

Great speculation.
To add to this, the AFL may have induced Ben to sign on for longer due to their ambassador payment on top of his salary, however from this season on the Suns are responsible for the payment which now has to fit into their covid- reduced salary cap. Another possible reason for them to be willing to let him go earlier?
 
Sunshine Sainter said:
Ok here is a thought I have had for a while, so please take it in the spirit of half baked conspiracies, but one that, yes you can see possibly happened.

As we are all aware Ben King at the end of his first season (2019) with the Gold Coast Suns signed on for a further two year extension, to his initial two year starting contract. That has him contracted to the Suns to the end of 2022. There was massive speculation at the time, that he would at the end of 2020, ask for a transfer back to St Kilda. His brother was living out their childhood dream at St Kilda and there was huge media and online speculation as to whether this would happen or not.

Gold Coast at that time, had another wheel barrow full of draft picks, with the ongoing fear that none of them would stay and that they would do, as so many had before them and leave to interstate clubs. It was reported after Ben signed the contract extension for a further two years, that his father had in fact approached Simon Lethlean for advice. Lethlean told him that this was a sensational offer and that he should accept it.

BUT..... is that the whole story. As we all know Lethlean and his football list management henchmen are always looking at options, choices, Plan B, Plan C etc. Yes it is very conceivable that he gave Ben's father that advice, but wouldn't it have made sense to also advise Bens father, that Ben should protect himself and give himself an out clause, if it didn't work out there? If he didn't like it there, or was homesick and wanted to come back to Melbourne. Gold Coast needed Ben's signing as a catalyst to sign other players, to show the younger guys that its a huge positive to commit to a future at the Gold Coast.

If Ben leaves in the future thats a problem for future Gold Coast, not their immediate problem at the end of 2019. Thus would both parties have agreed to the additional two year term, with the proviso that if Ben wanted to go any at the end of Years 2, 3 and 4 he could do so with their blessing.

Gold Coast get their signature. It completely removes this weekly ongoing speculation as to whether he stays or goes. They also get clear air time to convince Ben to stay and be a long term part of the Gold Coast's future. They publicly can use his signing, to secure a host of other young recruits to commit to the Suns. Ben gets a great financial settlement and the security of this, plus the option that if he does want to come back to Melbourne and St Kilda, that he has a means of doing it. And Lethlean has helped and in playing the long game, has a possible future star with a clear pathway to St Kilda.

Even if all of this is a figment of my imagination, there is that little glimmer that maybe, just maybe, that is exactly how it all happened
Click to expand...

Not inconceivable. The AFL would’ve needed to sign off on it, but they may have agreed if you recall the desperation of Gold Coast’s plight at the end of 2019. It’s easy to forget that.

I think end of 2021 at the earliest is still more plausible. Saints will need to be prepared to deal with two 1st RDPs when the time comes, maybe more if he is still contracted.
 
sunny3193 said:
So Adelaide needs to weigh up the “no risk” benefit of that outcome versus the “risk” of matching the offer to gain 5 places in a compromised draft.
The risk being St Kilda doesn’t negotiate and walks away from Crouch.
You see, our best outcome is Crouch and #15.
Plan B is to either retain Crouch and trade #15, or walk away from Crouch and keep #15.
Do you know which is our preferred Plan B?
I don’t, neither does Adelaide.
I’m tipping that Satan will not tell them.
And Satan proved with Bell last year that he is prepared to walk away from deals.

So if you were Adelaide, would you match?
Click to expand...
That's a good pithy explanation Sunny but my recollection is that last year what Satan proved was that he gets players who nominate for us, to our club. He knows that is the best way to keep in the good books of player agents and not sully our reputation... hence to continue the flow of players wishing to come to you.

IMO if Adelaide match there's no question we'll hand over #15, and probably a bit more because everyone knows that Crouch is worth that. And if we refused to trade than we'll look bad and which player in the future would confidently nominate us?

However, if Adelaide match they run the risk of being seen as being difficult actors for the sake of... a 5 pick upgrade and chump change...

Could go either way IMO.
 

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Sniffy Jenkins said:
So Dunstan and Jimmy gone to Adelaide i hear to free more cap space and we get some late picks in return and Crows get their wish acquiring pick 2 compo. Is that correct?
Click to expand...
Gary Lyon reported that a few days ago. I dont think the AFL would approve it though because it is blatant draft tampering. If it did go ahead, hopefully we could get a useful pick from Adelaide for Webster and Dunstan (pick 25-30ish)
 
Bit lateral but the idea derived from an earlier post (credit to whoever that was).
If Adelaide bids on the Western Bulldogs NGA kid, Ugle Hagan, at #1 (not unreasonably given Twomey has him rated #1), they do not have enough draft points this year to match that bid.
Currently they have #12 (1,268), #36 (502), 48 (302) = 2,082.
They would need 2,400 after discount, meaning that as it stands they go into credit in 2021.
If I was Adelaide, I’d undertake not to bid on him at #1, meaning that Bulldogs may only need 2,000 points.
On the proviso that we swapped #20 and #21 (FA compensation for Crouch) and a points value of 1,790 for their #12 (future pick swaps to even it out).
Benefit for Bulldogs: they get their guy cheaper.
Benefit for Adelaide: they move up 8 picks and lever some value out of their FA compensation.
Benefit for Saints: we get Crouch and keep #15.
If I was Satan I’d be ringing my old mate Ameet.
Then Riccuito.
 
Sunshine Sainter said:
Ok here is a thought I have had for a while, so please take it in the spirit of half baked conspiracies, but one that, yes you can see possibly happened.

As we are all aware Ben King at the end of his first season (2019) with the Gold Coast Suns signed on for a further two year extension, to his initial two year starting contract. That has him contracted to the Suns to the end of 2022. There was massive speculation at the time, that he would at the end of 2020, ask for a transfer back to St Kilda. His brother was living out their childhood dream at St Kilda and there was huge media and online speculation as to whether this would happen or not.

Gold Coast at that time, had another wheel barrow full of draft picks, with the ongoing fear that none of them would stay and that they would do, as so many had before them and leave to interstate clubs. It was reported after Ben signed the contract extension for a further two years, that his father had in fact approached Simon Lethlean for advice. Lethlean told him that this was a sensational offer and that he should accept it.

BUT..... is that the whole story. As we all know Lethlean and his football list management henchmen are always looking at options, choices, Plan B, Plan C etc. Yes it is very conceivable that he gave Ben's father that advice, but wouldn't it have made sense to also advise Bens father, that Ben should protect himself and give himself an out clause, if it didn't work out there? If he didn't like it there, or was homesick and wanted to come back to Melbourne. Gold Coast needed Ben's signing as a catalyst to sign other players, to show the younger guys that its a huge positive to commit to a future at the Gold Coast.

If Ben leaves in the future thats a problem for future Gold Coast, not their immediate problem at the end of 2019. Thus would both parties have agreed to the additional two year term, with the proviso that if Ben wanted to go any at the end of Years 2, 3 and 4 he could do so with their blessing.

Gold Coast get their signature. It completely removes this weekly ongoing speculation as to whether he stays or goes. They also get clear air time to convince Ben to stay and be a long term part of the Gold Coast's future. They publicly can use his signing, to secure a host of other young recruits to commit to the Suns. Ben gets a great financial settlement and the security of this, plus the option that if he does want to come back to Melbourne and St Kilda, that he has a means of doing it. And Lethlean has helped and in playing the long game, has a possible future star with a clear pathway to St Kilda.

Even if all of this is a figment of my imagination, there is that little glimmer that maybe, just maybe, that is exactly how it all happened
Click to expand...

If there is an grain of truth to this, there was an added roadblock, that because of Covid no longer exists.

people forget that Jack Lukicious (or however it is spelt) signed on at the same time.

From memory their initial contract was superseded by a new three year contact, the first year being 2020. The reason Lethlean told Kings dad to take it was because the AFL stumped up 150k a year in 'Ambassador' money for the both of them.
As you say the AFL were desperate to keep the young guns at GCS. The catch was that if they requested a trade in any year prior to the end of the contract, that had to pay that years Ambassador money back. So if one asked for a trade at the end of 2020 they would forego the 150k Ambassador money for 2020 (obviously the rest for the remaining two years would be null and void). If they left in 2021, they keep the 2020 but forfeit the 2021 150k.

So by the grace of the generous AFL, just with these two players the GCS gets a leg up of 300k outside the cap every year.
Who knows who else gets "Ambassador" money at GC.

So the AFL felt confident that both were locked in. Too smart, back slaps all round.

Then some kent ate a bat in Wuhan around the time the AFL were being too smart by half. Come 2020 and the AFL is looking at 500 mill in revenue out the door. This means that Ambassador money is now the responsibility of the clubs who have the players contracted.

So at least 300k is out the GC cap from two players that they hadn't accounted for. Now doesn't sound like much, but there is also talk that wages will be cut to 70% of pre covid.

Maybe the once in a lifetime offer is no more, and the Saints can cover the 'Ambassador' money in a bigger contract. After all they could do something with Max's contract, I am sure the kent's have the same bank account.
 
Last edited:
If we get Ben King, Blake Acres and Brad Crouch.

I’m emptying my super and chucking it on the Saints next year.
 
Curunir said:
Gary Lyon reported that a few days ago. I dont think the AFL would approve it though because it is blatant draft tampering. If it did go ahead, hopefully we could get a useful pick from Adelaide for Webster and Dunstan (pick 25-30ish)
Click to expand...


I don't really understand why this would be draft tampering. It is a trade between 2 clubs.

Is trading out of the 1st round when you have an academy pick (ie North with Taryn Thomas) draft tampering. What about trading good picks for multiple rubbish picks to accrue draft points?

I think they are all just logical, mutually beneficial business decisions. Dunstan & Webster could quite conceivable become valuable players for the Crows. It is not what I would call blatant tampering
 
Sunshine Sainter said:
Ok here is a thought I have had for a while, so please take it in the spirit of half baked conspiracies, but one that, yes you can see possibly happened.

As we are all aware Ben King at the end of his first season (2019) with the Gold Coast Suns signed on for a further two year extension, to his initial two year starting contract. That has him contracted to the Suns to the end of 2022. There was massive speculation at the time, that he would at the end of 2020, ask for a transfer back to St Kilda. His brother was living out their childhood dream at St Kilda and there was huge media and online speculation as to whether this would happen or not.

Gold Coast at that time, had another wheel barrow full of draft picks, with the ongoing fear that none of them would stay and that they would do, as so many had before them and leave to interstate clubs. It was reported after Ben signed the contract extension for a further two years, that his father had in fact approached Simon Lethlean for advice. Lethlean told him that this was a sensational offer and that he should accept it.

BUT..... is that the whole story. As we all know Lethlean and his football list management henchmen are always looking at options, choices, Plan B, Plan C etc. Yes it is very conceivable that he gave Ben's father that advice, but wouldn't it have made sense to also advise Bens father, that Ben should protect himself and give himself an out clause, if it didn't work out there? If he didn't like it there, or was homesick and wanted to come back to Melbourne. Gold Coast needed Ben's signing as a catalyst to sign other players, to show the younger guys that its a huge positive to commit to a future at the Gold Coast.

If Ben leaves in the future thats a problem for future Gold Coast, not their immediate problem at the end of 2019. Thus would both parties have agreed to the additional two year term, with the proviso that if Ben wanted to go any at the end of Years 2, 3 and 4 he could do so with their blessing.

Gold Coast get their signature. It completely removes this weekly ongoing speculation as to whether he stays or goes. They also get clear air time to convince Ben to stay and be a long term part of the Gold Coast's future. They publicly can use his signing, to secure a host of other young recruits to commit to the Suns. Ben gets a great financial settlement and the security of this, plus the option that if he does want to come back to Melbourne and St Kilda, that he has a means of doing it. And Lethlean has helped and in playing the long game, has a possible future star with a clear pathway to St Kilda.

Even if all of this is a figment of my imagination, there is that little glimmer that maybe, just maybe, that is exactly how it all happened
Click to expand...


Or we just come in and offer a big contracts to Rowell and Anderson so that Dean can have his son back at the club and Kings's and Rowell's contracts breaks their cap and we get Anderson in.
 
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