List Mgmt. 2022 Trade and Free Agency Thread

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scoman said:
The thing is Dev did play a variety of roles for us last year and acquitted himself quite well. If we have a look back at our best 22 suggestions from late last year and early this year I suggest most had him somewhere in the 22. There seemed to be a plan to get him up to 50 games nice and quickly, regardless of position. That hasn't been the case this year.

This could be for a number of reasons. The most likely imho is that the club has backed Clugga, Rayner, Berry and Bailey to take the next step and become first string mids. This hasn't been overly successful unfortunately, at least not as yet, and has been compounded by the injuries of Zorko and the drop off of Lyons.

There has also been a bit of a policy this year, and we have heard coaching staff themselves in the last few weeks, of picking like for like on almost every occasion when a spot becomes available. I'm not sure I agree with that myself especially when a player like Dev has shown an ability to play forward, wing and inside mid. I had a look back at his stats from last year and he averaged just over 13 disposals and 4 tackles over 16 games. That's actually a bit better than Ah Chee, Jerry and Prior last year, who also played various positions.
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Dev can play a variety of roles…. But can he play forward as well as Rayner and Bailey can? I would suggest that’s a strong no. Secondly, Clug just had 4 and 30 playing as an inside mid…

I like Dev, don’t get me wrong. I really want him to stick around. At 20/21 there is nothing wrong with being made to earn your spot and learn your craft in the twos.
 
M Malice said:
You would have thought Dev's best chance to get into the side and play that inside mid role that he is best suited for was last round v the Giants... instead they went for Matho. I went and had a look at their profile on the club website.

Dev- 185cm, 85kg.
Matho- 186cm, 86kg.

The reasoning can't be that Matho is a bigger body, he must have some issues he needs to work on, I didn't watch the last reserves game, did Dev play as a pure inside mid?
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I think the decision to bring Matho in was an acknowledgement that his reserves form couldn't be ignored, even though it seemed like his cards were marked. I would imagine it would be encouraging for players in the reserves to see that if you perform well at VFL level, there's a good chance you'll eventually force yourself into the side.

Admittedly their roles were different with Robertson seeming to be more defensive at the stoppage, but he average around 10 CBAs in the games he played, which is similar to what Matho attended on the weekend.

On the plus side, with Matho out of the reserves, Robertson played predominantly as an inside midfield in the VFL on the weekend and was probably our best player.
 
Mighty Lions said:
That goes a long way with him getting a game!!! ;)

Dev is rated as you suggest he isn't.

Simply put, he just needs to focus on playing the best footy he can each week in the 2's and keep improving on the things he lacks as detailed by his coach's week after week after week.

I like Dev as well and do think he has potential as a regular player in our best 22. That said, he has to wait/earn his turn or ask to be traded. If i were him, I would stay and persist. Resilience is an important make up in an AFL footballer as well. Fingers crossed he gets there.
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Not nit picking, just curious. Is the feedback on exactly the same thing each week or is it that every player gets feedback on things to improve each week. You would assume you would not want to give too many different messages though.
 

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Would be disappointed if we moved on Dev and Matho at the end of the season. And if Prior didn't get offered another contract.
Matho is solid depth and Dev has enormous upside if he can get another preseason in and replace Lyons.

Can see TBerry being moved on though. Hasn't gotten the chances in his actual position that the others have and has suffered for that.

I don't see us brining anyone in (outside of the draft), bar a Fogerty type to replace McStay.

Interestingly, I did spot Stewy Dew and Rhys Shaw at a few of our games a month or so ago. Wouldn't be surprised if we lose someone to the Gold Coast as well via trade.
 
I have a soft spot for a lot of guys in our VFL team. Although the VFL comp is lower level then AFL.
Full of part timers, top ups, young developing kids and depth/older players.
The scrappyness can be a problem as well although just getting your hands on the ball
Matho was week in and week out knocking on the door.

Compare disposals alone I know not everything.
Matho 2 games over 40 disposals 9 games over 30

- Rhys Mathieson

vfl.aflmstats.com vfl.aflmstats.com
Dev two games over 25 (28,29)

- Deven Robertson

vfl.aflmstats.com vfl.aflmstats.com
Terry one game over 30 and and 8 games over 25

- Thomas Berry

vfl.aflmstats.com vfl.aflmstats.com

Look at some of our other players over 25 touches in a games
E Smith 2 games
C Michael 1 game over 30 and 5 games over 25 touches
Wilmont 1 over 25
Lester 2 games
Cox 3 games

Shows you just getting down and getting the ball Matho was ahead.
Yes he has some problems.. Although work rate been great

Dev and Terry etc they come on.. If Dev and club feel a change best up to them.
Tom Berry out of contract so you assume they having a chat about where he fits with us or not
 
Mighty Lions said:
That goes a long way with him getting a game!!! ;)

Dev is rated as you suggest he isn't.

Simply put, he just needs to focus on playing the best footy he can each week in the 2's and keep improving on the things he lacks as detailed by his coach's week after week after week.

I like Dev as well and do think he has potential as a regular player in our best 22. That said, he has to wait/earn his turn or ask to be traded. If i were him, I would stay and persist. Resilience is an important make up in an AFL footballer as well. Fingers crossed he gets there.
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Leaving is seen as a short cut to top level. Works sometimes, doesn't a lot of the time.

If matho keeps his position, it will help young players understand that it can just take time and lots of hard work.
 
JasRulz63 said:
I think the decision to bring Matho in was an acknowledgement that his reserves form couldn't be ignored, even though it seemed like his cards were marked. I would imagine it would be encouraging for players in the reserves to see that if you perform well at VFL level, there's a good chance you'll eventually force yourself into the side.

Admittedly their roles were different with Robertson seeming to be more defensive at the stoppage, but he average around 10 CBAs in the games he played, which is similar to what Matho attended on the weekend.

On the plus side, with Matho out of the reserves, Robertson played predominantly as an inside midfield in the VFL on the weekend and was probably our best player.
Click to expand...

Snap - same thought. Hasn't read yours when I posted mine
 
wantok said:
Dev is an inside midfielder in the mould of Clayton Oliver. They both look a bit unglamorous but are deceptively quick and hard at the ball. Disposal is average. He is not a forward flanker or a wing. How do you think Oliver would go if made to play in those roles? Probably not much better than Dev. To those who are prepared to see him prosper at a competitor I ask who else on our roster you see playing as a permanent midfielder to replace Lyons and Zorko in 2 years?

On SM-A525F using BigFooty.com mobile app
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Tunstill. I expect Tunstill's development trajectory to continue after a solid pre season. He has shown in his first year to have a very, very high ceiling.
 
Some coaches do pick and stick for the season and there are good reasons for this. Putting your trust in your core players to perform when it counts is needed. If you don't trust them they won't trust you. Plus you need battle hardened players in the midfield to be able to play a full season. The balance is giving enough chances to young promising players to become those core players so they don't leave. If we genuinely believe we are good shot to secure a flag then so be it if we lose a young player or two. If we win a flag no-one complains, if we don't supporters riot, people are moved on and we start again.
 
Nuggo said:
Some coaches do pick and stick for the season and there are good reasons for this. Putting your trust in your core players to perform when it counts is needed. If you don't trust them they won't trust you. Plus you need battle hardened players in the midfield to be able to play a full season. The balance is giving enough chances to young promising players to become those core players so they don't leave. If we genuinely believe we are good shot to secure a flag then so be it if we lose a young player or two. If we win a flag no-one complains, if we don't supporters riot, people are moved on and we start again.
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pretty much this

we're wedded to JL this season much as some arent overly happy about it

if dev is going to make it as a gun for us youd be hoping hes seriously challenging JL for his spot as a primary inside mid this offseason and cementing himself as best 22

if that doesnt happen hes probably out the door at the end of 2023
 
has there been any word on darcy gardiner resigning or how contract talks are going on that front?

all of the media (and to be honest ours) attention has seemingly been focused on mcstay and has let this one go pretty much ignored. a fair few teams would love an extra tall defender and gardiner is out there as a free agent . seems weird people are chasing liam jones given this

we have a good player competing for his spot in payne so i dont know what the clubs position would be like on this either
 
I watch very little Suns footy… what’s Sam Day like? If there is no one else available could he fill Mcstays spot until we find a suitable replacement?
 

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LIONS08 said:
I watch very little Suns footy… what’s Sam Day like? If there is no one else available could he fill Mcstays spot until we find a suitable replacement?
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Could have been a special player if it weren't for injuries.
 
jjami15 said:
Not nit picking, just curious. Is the feedback on exactly the same thing each week or is it that every player gets feedback on things to improve each week. You would assume you would not want to give too many different messages though.
Click to expand...
No idea as to what detailed feedback is given...I guess they keep the feedback constant while improvement is still needed...I dont know.
 
rye said:
has there been any word on darcy gardiner resigning or how contract talks are going on that front?

all of the media (and to be honest ours) attention has seemingly been focused on mcstay and has let this one go pretty much ignored. a fair few teams would love an extra tall defender and gardiner is out there as a free agent . seems weird people are chasing liam jones given this

we have a good player competing for his spot in payne so i dont know what the clubs position would be like on this either
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I'll preface this by saying that I really, really like Gardiner and think he is far too roughly treated by the supporter base at times, but I do think we're approaching a bit of a complex situation with our key defender stocks.

Payne has all the tools to be a very high-level 10+ year key defender, and with the lack of key defenders around in the comp, I'm sure he's being heavily pursued. If we continue to stick with Adams, Gardiner & Harris (who I'm sure would all be on best 22 money), I can't really see Payne getting a clear run at the senior team until Adams slows down - which could be 3+ years away still.

It seems to me that from a long-term list build PoV, we might need to find a way to move on one of those key defenders to get Payne in somewhat permanently from next season onwards. Gardiner does seem perhaps the most expendable of the three, so if an offer came his way and he was open to moving, I'm not sure I would necessarily stand in his way.

Obviously you need depth in your KPP stocks, but I think each of those four has a real claim to being a permanent fixture in the senior team. It might be better to have just three of them who are best 22 locks, and then a couple of less expensive backup key defenders in the VFL (like Lester has been).
 
PattyKwasagun said:
I'll preface this by saying that I really, really like Gardiner and think he is far too roughly treated by the supporter base at times, but I do think we're approaching a bit of a complex situation with our key defender stocks.

Payne has all the tools to be a very high-level 10+ year key defender, and with the lack of key defenders around in the comp, I'm sure he's being heavily pursued. If we continue to stick with Adams, Gardiner & Harris (who I'm sure would all be on best 22 money), I can't really see Payne getting a clear run at the senior team until Adams slows down - which could be 3+ years away still.

It seems to me that from a long-term list build PoV, we might need to find a way to move on one of those key defenders to get Payne in somewhat permanently from next season onwards. Gardiner does seem perhaps the most expendable of the three, so if an offer came his way and he was open to moving, I'm not sure I would necessarily stand in his way.

Obviously you need depth in your KPP stocks, but I think each of those four has a real claim to being a permanent fixture in the senior team. It might be better to have just three of them who are best 22 locks, and then a couple of less expensive backup key defenders in the VFL (like Lester has been).
Click to expand...

Great post. That's the exact logic which I'm applying to us trading Dev Robertson as well. I believe he's still rated across WA clubs at the moment and they know he's held back due to lack of opportunities. We can't have one more year of him running around in 2s and then he walks out free on us. With Lyons being around for 2 more, it's a very real possibility so we may have to consider releasing Dev this off season.
 
PattyKwasagun said:
I'll preface this by saying that I really, really like Gardiner and think he is far too roughly treated by the supporter base at times, but I do think we're approaching a bit of a complex situation with our key defender stocks.

Payne has all the tools to be a very high-level 10+ year key defender, and with the lack of key defenders around in the comp, I'm sure he's being heavily pursued. If we continue to stick with Adams, Gardiner & Harris (who I'm sure would all be on best 22 money), I can't really see Payne getting a clear run at the senior team until Adams slows down - which could be 3+ years away still.

It seems to me that from a long-term list build PoV, we might need to find a way to move on one of those key defenders to get Payne in somewhat permanently from next season onwards. Gardiner does seem perhaps the most expendable of the three, so if an offer came his way and he was open to moving, I'm not sure I would necessarily stand in his way.

Obviously you need depth in your KPP stocks, but I think each of those four has a real claim to being a permanent fixture in the senior team. It might be better to have just three of them who are best 22 locks, and then a couple of less expensive backup key defenders in the VFL (like Lester has been).
Click to expand...
I wonder what best 22 money is?

The current AFL average salary is $389k.

MRobbo has said on his podcast that he's paid lower than the average afl salary. Every team would have best 22 players that are viewed as role players, and as such make less than the afl average.

Gardiner's current contract wouldn't necissarily have been the same over the life of the contract. We could have backended his contract to make sure he was a restricted free agent this year. Being in the top 25% of paid players on our list doesn't necessarily mean a player is on big money, they could concievably be on something close to the average income if we have 4 or 5 players on something about $750k-$800k mark.
 
mpal6 said:
Great post. That's the exact logic which I'm applying to us trading Dev Robertson as well. I believe he's still rated across WA clubs at the moment and they know he's held back due to lack of opportunities. We can't have one more year of him running around in 2s and then he walks out free on us. With Lyons being around for 2 more, it's a very real possibility so we may have to consider releasing Dev this off season.
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Teams would still have to trade for Robertson next year, as he wouldn't have reached his free agency year yet. It's just that we would more likely recieve a token pick, or a team at the bottom of the lasdder could walk him through the PSD.
 
briztoon said:
I wonder what best 22 money is?

The current AFL average salary is $389k.

MRobbo has said on his podcast that he's paid lower than the average afl salary. Every team would have best 22 players that are viewed as role players, and as such make less than the afl average.

Gardiner's current contract wouldn't necissarily have been the same over the life of the contract. We could have backended his contract to make sure he was a restricted free agent this year. Being in the top 25% of paid players on our list doesn't necessarily mean a player is on big money, they could concievably be on something close to the average income if we have 4 or 5 players on something about $750k-$800k mark.
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Players who would be on good money ie, 750K + per year? >

Lachie Neale, Joe Daniher, Charlie Cameron, Dayne Zorko, Harris Andrews... + Hugh McCluggage and Daniel Rich may be getting close to that.

Next tier down? >

Jarryd Lyons, Lincoln McCarthy, Dan McStay, Darcy Gardiner, Eric Hipwood, Jarrod Berry, Zac Bailey, Brandon Starcevich... + maybe Oscar McInerney, Marcus Adams.

The rest would likely be well below that average IMO.

Note- Keidean Coleman is due and deserving of a pay rise.
 
rye said:
has there been any word on darcy gardiner resigning or how contract talks are going on that front?

all of the media (and to be honest ours) attention has seemingly been focused on mcstay and has let this one go pretty much ignored. a fair few teams would love an extra tall defender and gardiner is out there as a free agent . seems weird people are chasing liam jones given this

we have a good player competing for his spot in payne so i dont know what the clubs position would be like on this either
Click to expand...
No there is nothing. Sure I read Gardiner is a RFA so that means he is/was top 10 earner. I think based on relatively recent AFL form Jones more likely to be able to take the best or second best tall forward, I am not sure Gardiner is as good taking the best or second best tall forward.
 
PattyKwasagun said:
I'll preface this by saying that I really, really like Gardiner and think he is far too roughly treated by the supporter base at times, but I do think we're approaching a bit of a complex situation with our key defender stocks.

Payne has all the tools to be a very high-level 10+ year key defender, and with the lack of key defenders around in the comp, I'm sure he's being heavily pursued. If we continue to stick with Adams, Gardiner & Harris (who I'm sure would all be on best 22 money), I can't really see Payne getting a clear run at the senior team until Adams slows down - which could be 3+ years away still.

It seems to me that from a long-term list build PoV, we might need to find a way to move on one of those key defenders to get Payne in somewhat permanently from next season onwards. Gardiner does seem perhaps the most expendable of the three, so if an offer came his way and he was open to moving, I'm not sure I would necessarily stand in his way.

Obviously you need depth in your KPP stocks, but I think each of those four has a real claim to being a permanent fixture in the senior team. It might be better to have just three of them who are best 22 locks, and then a couple of less expensive backup key defenders in the VFL (like Lester has been).
Click to expand...
Totally agree with this. In addition I think neither Gardiner or Adams have the height to really play on key forwards or resting rucks anymore. So many key forwards are now around the 2.0 metre mark and particularly Adams can be found out badly on someone of that height, especially as he can’t really seem to get off the ground to defend. Payne has the height and speed and needs to get more games on these guys or otherwise we will have to give Fullarton more time in defence. Adams and Gardiner are really only able to play on the third tall imo.
 

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