List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Is our cap tight as in we are paying 100% of our salary cap this year or is it tight as in we don't have much room next year? Media people don't necessarily understand how player salary is managed. All clubs should be paying 100% of their salary cap each season, that is how you open your cap up down the track.

If you get to get to a point where you're paying 95% of your cap, that's when your get guys like Cripps and Weitering in and say to them, that you want to renegotiate their contract, pay them extra this season and a little less next but it all adds up to the same for the contract's duration.

Again, what we need to know is whether we have cap pressure for next year and following seasons or is this just the media translating Carlton are paying 100% of their cap (which all clubs should be) into Carlton have cap pressure?

If you are paying under your salary cap you are missing opportunities to front load contracts and will miss opportunities to open your cap up in the future.

We still seem to be able to bring in mature quality players like Acres. Not sure the cap pressure that is reported is real.

I suspect we are paying 105% after banking it for a few years

 

[FRUMPY]

I suspect we are paying 105% after banking it for a few years

money well spent

 

[Beyond Blue]

I’ve got no idea about the status of our salary cap but I think if we are going to target ready made players it needs to be the same approach as what led us to getting Acres last year, ie needs based and cheap in terms of salary and trade value. Also need to profile their injury history carefully.

I wouldn’t be going anywhere near Gresham and Ben McKay

32

Ben Mckay

Age

27

Ht

202cm

Wt

104kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.5

2star

K

3.7

1star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

1.7

4star

MG

77.2

1star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.5

3star

T

1.5

2star

MG

88.5

2star

D

7.0

2star

K

3.4

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.0

4star

MG

67.8

1star

who strike me as McGovern and Martin version 2 - talented, expensive and injury prone. I also suspect Himmelberg and Doedee will be too expensive for us.

Of the players coming out of contract I think the following suit that criteria:

• back up Ruck: Hayes, Sweet
• small forward: Murphy, Lohmman, Schultz
• medium forward: Sturt, McAdam, Wicks
• midfield/forward: Flanders, O’Halloran

 

[FRUMPY]

Wait and see which club is doing a collingwood/hawthorn and trading their good players for SFA and paying half their salary....

surely someone will be doing that this year........unless its us

 

[Manhattanite]

If we don’t have a great season and we need to bring in some players to fill in gaps and need some salary cap relief to get them in then it’s very possible that the likes of McKay and Weitering and Cripps (and others) give back a little future salary to make it work. They’re all in for club success now and there’s probably some flexibility there with each of them.




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[4flagsin5yrs]

I’ve got no idea about the status of our salary cap but I think if we are going to target ready made players it needs to be the same approach as what led us to getting Acres last year, ie needs based and cheap in terms of salary and trade value. Also need to profile their injury history carefully.

I wouldn’t be going anywhere near Gresham and Ben McKay who strike me as McGovern and Martin version 2 - talented, expensive and injury prone. I also suspect Himmelberg and Doedee will be too expensive for us.

Of the players coming out of contract I think the following suit that criteria:

• back up Ruck: Hayes, Sweet
• small forward: Murphy, Lohmman, Schultz
• medium forward: Sturt, McAdam, Wicks
• midfield/forward: Flanders, O’Halloran

Mason Wood as a HF?

Reckon we go for Harry H.

Quality.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I’ve got no idea about the status of our salary cap but I think if we are going to target ready made players it needs to be the same approach as what led us to getting Acres last year, ie needs based and cheap in terms of salary and trade value. Also need to profile their injury history carefully.

I wouldn’t be going anywhere near Gresham and Ben McKay who strike me as McGovern and Martin version 2 - talented, expensive and injury prone. I also suspect Himmelberg and Doedee will be too expensive for us.

Of the players coming out of contract I think the following suit that criteria:

• back up Ruck: Hayes, Sweet
• small forward: Murphy, Lohmman, Schultz
• medium forward: Sturt, McAdam, Wicks
• midfield/forward: Flanders, O’Halloran

What ever type we take it’s just goto be the right one. I think all of the Newman, Fogarty, Pitto, Acres, Hewett and Young pickups are in the same basket of cheap pickups.
You get one like Acres and you fill a need, you get one like Fogarty and you have to go looking again with probably ~$300k less to spend

 

[TENACIOUS]

Not sure why all the stress...

Excluding the 105% rule, because it's only allowed for 2 years?

Using the 2022 cap for an example (I know it's increased because of gather round, but I couldn't find an exact figure)

100% of Cap = $13,540,000
95% of Cap = $12,863,000 (minimum allowed)

The difference, from clubs at their caps and at the bottom of their caps = $677,000 or 1x good player

It's obvious that the club rate the list and aren't open to trading any of our top 18 players...

We have a large OOC list still and to keep a majority of those, we will need to marginally increase their contracts.
Those marginal increases would, eat into any savings from delisted players...

Over the next few years our OOC list is quite small so we may have cash to attract some players...

 

[#23 Hill]

Pies were gifted a #1 pick as a father son who happens to be the best young player since Judd. His brother would also have been a top 20 pick , both Daicos boys are likely All Australians this year.. the father son advantage if it falls your way is often the difference. All premiership teams have significant player/players who have come via father son.

I wonder which premiership team had the most father/sons in it?

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

I wonder which premiership team had the most father/sons in it?

Geelong had Ablett x 2, Hawkins, Scarlett & Blake
Pies had Cloke & Shaw
Dogs, Hunter, Picken, Cordy, Libba

 

[#23 Hill]

Geelong had Ablett x 2, Hawkins, Scarlett & Blake
Pies had Cloke & Shaw
Dogs, Hunter, Picken, Cordy, Libba

Wow. Five for the Cats. That's pretty amazing.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Wow. Five for the Cats. That's pretty amazing.

Yes and Ablett, Scarlett & Hawkins will all be hall of famers

 

[katmanblue]

I suspect we are paying 105% after banking it for a few years

That's well and truly over. Could only do it for two years.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Lukeblueboy]

I haven’t seen Harley Reid play, but is he a similar player to horn-francis?

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I haven’t seen Harley Reid play, but is he a similar player to horn-francis?

Not really, imagine a mix of Luke Hodge and Dustin Martin. And he looks every bit as good down back, forward or through the middle.

 

[Coona Blues]

If you do the Maths, you'll see that of the 'goneski' list, there's not much being freed up at all. The people you've said 'might be traded' can't be taken into account because they might not happen.

I'm not trying to pick a fight so apologies if you've taken it that way. I just think your list shows close to nothing of relevance to the point you're trying to make.

Gave you a tenuous like. Admittedly primarily predicated on your use of the term “Maths”. The Australian and English terminology too often bastardised by Americanised plebs adopting the (historically) Yankee only term “Math”.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

If after our CEO said last year managing our cap will be a challenge and after months and months of the media telling us we have a cap squeeze and our CEO now is saying we have list management issues, if you don’t want to acknowledge this means we have a problem that’s up to you.

I see and read the above and I think our cap is maxed out, our CEO isn’t going to use these terms. Time will tell.

And yes we brought in Acres, who by all reports is on $350,000 per year, $50,000 under the AFL average

The only people who know the true state of our salary cap are those in charge of managing it. It drives me coco bananas when I read and hear journos and idjiots in the media like Barrett and Browne and Cornes professing to be experts on list management and the state of a club's salary cap, when quite frankly they have no ****ing idea. Good for clicks though.

AFL contracts can be standard, non standard, include trigger clauses, performance based clauses, be front loaded, back loaded, rookie with match payments, free agency - AND clubs are required to pay at least 95% of the cap in TPP, which makes it even all the more complex. Yet somehow the media and supporters seem to know better than our list management team - who, incidentally inherited a bit of a dog's breakfast from the previous regime. AND we've managed to re-sign our big names, which in turn means we now know how much cap space we have remaining to trade in/re-sign players over the next year and years after that based on the TPP's. That's why it's called 'list management' and not 'media speculation'.

Cook came out and stated in the interview on 3AW that our cap is top heavy, which is fairly obvious with the recent long term signings. It doesn't mean that it's bursting at the seams though and we're in all sorts of trouble with retaining other required players or trading players in from other clubs. They may not be big name players, but we already have enough of these on our list to form the nucleus.

Imo, we need to bring in more/better role players who suit our list requirements and don't demand high salaries like an Acres, which then allows the stars to shine and not do all the heavy lifting. AND continue to go to the draft, which locks in these youngsters for minimum 2 years at base salary - which Cook himself iterated in the interview.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

The names I names - let's say the first six are on average of $475k, their replacements on $275k (as draftees) - there's 6 x $200k or $1.2m saved.

The balance on average $400k, replaced by 275k types there's 6 x $125k or $725k saved.

Do you want me to add $1.2m and $0.725m?

Loose numbers surely, but "nothing of relevance"?

FYI

Just because a player is on X amount this year and we sever ties with them doesn't mean that's what is free in our salary dollars. Fair chance (well an experienced accountant mind) would have already built signed contracts into the following years and the club will be working within these figure constraints already calculated and the club will/may need to cut ties to players they may not want to lose.

For example, Cripps and all the higher priced signees as of late may have 2024 in their contract with a high amount meant to be coming their way. Yes of course this can be changed via discussion with club and player/player manager and the dollar amount can be manipulated. The club towards the end of this year will need to work on who is staying and who they need to remove and this may not just be based on a players output. The salary cap is a wonderful thing and there's little chance the club a year out has their mind made up. Yes, they sign players to dollar amounts with the expectation players will be cut at some point. But it's not an exact science. There's no way a club leaves it to chance and 6 months out from the end of the season can just say "let's cut 8 players and that's the free amount of dollars we will have come trade tine". It's simply not that easy.

 

[Monty1978]

Our cap is maxed , people saying it’s not come on … we have banked on the stars we have to get us 17 and that’s how I see it.. we are not bringing in an A grader unless we let TDK go or we do a collingwood and do a treloar Stevenson or Grundy.
With the make up of our list I’m struggling to see 17 to be honest

 

[Accidental genius]

Just about all our stars with big contracts (apart for Charlie) are in one way or another struggling atm.

At some point they will no doubt return to near or to their best. This will have a big impact.

Another major impact will come from getting in another 2-3 B graders. Hard working and reliable types. We’ve got plenty that we can turnover from our depth players like plow lob Dow Fogarty Carroll Philps (maybe a couple of others).

 

[Jeremias]

Our cap is maxed , people saying it’s not come on … we have banked on the stars we have to get us 17 and that’s how I see it.. we are not bringing in an A grader unless we let TDK go or we do a collingwood and do a treloar Stevenson or Grundy.
With the make up of our list I’m struggling to see 17 to be honest

Based on what though? Anything more than a vibe?

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

FYI

Just because a player is on X amount this year and we sever ties with them doesn't mean that's what is free in our salary dollars. Fair chance (well an experienced accountant mind) would have already built signed contracts into the following years and the club will be working within these figure constraints already calculated and the club will/may need to cut ties to players they may not want to lose.

For example, Cripps and all the higher priced signees as of late may have 2024 in their contract with a high amount meant to be coming their way. Yes of course this can be changed via discussion with club and player/player manager and the dollar amount can be manipulated. The club towards the end of this year will need to work on who is staying and who they need to remove and this may not just be based on a players output. The salary cap is a wonderful thing and there's little chance the club a year out has their mind made up. Yes, they sign players to dollar amounts with the expectation players will be cut at some point. But it's not an exact science. There's no way a club leaves it to chance and 6 months out from the end of the season can just say "let's cut 8 players and that's the free amount of dollars we will have come trade tine". It's simply not that easy.

Never said it was (that easy).

But equally, a contract might be front ended so there is a stack of space at the end....

 

[DangerousD]

The only people who know the true state of our salary cap are those in charge of managing it. It drives me coco bananas when I read and hear journos and idjiots in the media like Barrett and Browne and Cornes professing to be experts on list management and the state of a club's salary cap, when quite frankly they have no ****ing idea. Good for clicks though.

AFL contracts can be standard, non standard, include trigger clauses, performance based clauses, be front loaded, back loaded, rookie with match payments, free agency - AND clubs are required to pay at least 95% of the cap in TPP, which makes it even all the more complex. Yet somehow the media and supporters seem to know better than our list management team - who, incidentally inherited a bit of a dog's breakfast from the previous regime. AND we've managed to re-sign our big names, which in turn means we now know how much cap space we have remaining to trade in/re-sign players over the next year and years after that based on the TPP's. That's why it's called 'list management' and not 'media speculation'.

Cook came out and stated in the interview on 3AW that our cap is top heavy, which is fairly obvious with the recent long term signings. It doesn't mean that it's bursting at the seams though and we're in all sorts of trouble with retaining other required players or trading players in from other clubs. They may not be big name players, but we already have enough of these on our list to form the nucleus.

Imo, we need to bring in more/better role players who suit our list requirements and don't demand high salaries like an Acres, which then allows the stars to shine and not do all the heavy lifting. AND continue to go to the draft, which locks in these youngsters for minimum 2 years at base salary - which Cook himself iterated in the interview.

Very nicely put, nothing to disagree with really, lots of speculation and interpretation of what Cooks comments mean in the current situation. We all will form our own views on the information that’s out there.

The two biggest talking points which makes me think we are right on the cusp of being full are.

Can we keep TDK in our current situation with our list being too heavy?

We need to focus on the draft the next 2-3 years.

These are straight from Cooks mouth and as I said I interpret these based on my own life views, you and others will view them totally different.

Another interesting but to add to this is, the reported deal we have offered TDK is 2 years at $650,000 which I find absurd and hope is a long way off the mark.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Just about all our stars with big contracts (apart for Charlie) are in one way or another struggling atm.

At some point they will no doubt return to near or to their best. This will have a big impact.

Another major impact will come from getting in another 2-3 B graders. Hard working and reliable types. We’ve got plenty that we can turnover from our depth players like plow lob Dow Fogarty Carroll Philps (maybe a couple of others).

We would all hope that the so called stars return to their best, but saying that, it doesn't make our midfield more potent. Plus Harry has never been a reliable kick and imo Cripps is slow and only going to get slower.

I propose we not chase players anymore and go hard at the draft. Outside of Walsh, Hollands and Cowan, do we really have anyone under 22 that we honestly think will be a very very good player? Maybe Motlop, Binns, Lemmey, HOK but I'm not convinced on any of these 4 and it's still too early.

We need kids with great skills and a desire to win to come into this team and take roles from our best 22.

Build from within and reward kids that continue to back up their good vfl performances into the 1sts. Simples really

 

[Accidental genius]

We would all hope that the so called stars return to their best, but saying that, it doesn't make our midfield more potent. Plus Harry has never been a reliable kick and imo Cripps is slow and only going to get slower.

I propose we not chase players anymore and go hard at the draft. Outside of Walsh, Hollands and Cowan, do we really have anyone under 22 that we honestly think will be a very very good player? Maybe Motlop, Binns, Lemmey, HOK but I'm not convinced on any of these 4 and it's still too early.

We need kids with great skills and a desire to win to come into this team and take roles from our best 22.

Build from within and reward kids that continue to back up their good vfl performances into the 1sts. Simples really

Agree on ticking over the draft picks. This will maintain a balanced list moving forward.

However atm we should be thinking about our list requirements to take a shot at the title. Best chance we’ve had in a while. Fill in a few gaps like a decent half forward and an agile/speedy mid at the very least. Maybe ruck as well. Pitto will need assistance. Tdk not reliable at this stage.

H needs assistance from a goal kicker.
Cripps - not sure what’s going on but surely he can regain some form soon.
Walsh needs some specific instructions imo. Have a specific role with good impact. Atm he runs around a lot but no too impactful imo.
Weiters mind is currently elsewhere with off field issues. Poor bugger.

We’ve got too many on the injury list and handful that don’t offer much impact at afl level. Need to sort out some of this as well.