VFL 2023 Swans Reserves

[bedford]

Not this year you won't.
After a shaky start i'm enjoying your thoughts

 

[Dubai Quacker]

The issues with the reserves is purely down to the experience available and injuries.

Last year we had players like Sinclair, Bell, Ronke and Taylor available to provide senior support for most of the season and Cunningham later in the season to provide leadership to the 1st and 2nd year players, this year that support is not there save for Stephens, Melican, Gould and Wicks who have been into and out of the reserves side in any case.

The effect our injuries have had this year across the entire list has meant we are playing more top up players than we did at any point last year, in most case twice as many. Last year towards the end of the season we played with at most 4 or 5 top up players so most of the reserves team each week was made up of AFL listed players with the top up players being complementary pieces to the side. This year the number top up players has blown out to 9 to 11 depending on the needs of the senior side each week and the top up players are being relied upon to fill important roles that they weren't planned to be used in (also doesn't help that the two senior tops ups that we have in Collis and Shipley are currently missing due to injury as well).

The lack of a key forward at all for most of the season has been a big issue for the reserves side. Its not surprising that we have our best game when we get our hands on a forward and the next week we revert back to type when he is called up to the seniors and a 17 year old top up is expected to replace his output.

I don’t agree it’s purely down to experience and injuries (although I can’t deny they play a significant part, as does the absence of a forward target).

But we had 14 AFL listed players in the VFL side on Saturday.

Yes, they were young, but so were Brisbane’s. Indeed, the Lions had a first year player kick 4 majors.

For a team with 14 AFL listed players to lose a VFL game by nearly 20 goals is, in my view, a problem.

Either the youngsters aren’t developing (remember, they usually only get 2-3 years to prove themselves worth a place on the list), the top-up players are nowhere near VFL standard (a worry for someone like Indhi Kirk), or a combination of both.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

I don’t agree it’s purely down to experience and injuries (although I can’t deny they play a significant part, as does the absence of a forward target).

But we had 14 AFL listed players in the VFL side on Saturday.

Yes, they were young, but so were Brisbane’s. Indeed, the Lions had a first year player kick 4 majors.

For a team with 14 AFL listed players to lose a VFL game by nearly 20 goals is, in my view, a problem.

Either the youngsters aren’t developing (remember, they usually only get 2-3 years to prove themselves worth a place on the list), the top-up players are nowhere near VFL standard (a worry for someone like Indhi Kirk), or a combination of both.

Bruins had more experience. I'd love Lyons to captain coach our 2s. Just a wise old head.

Our 2s need umpteen things. One we don't need is toppies who match our young listed players in body weight. Love Charley Haley but would rather we spend money and get Manton from Port or similar who is a robust kpf who won't make an AFL list.

 

[bedford]

Bruins had more experience. I'd love Lyons to captain coach our 2s. Just a wise old head.

Our 2s need umpteen things. One we don't need is toppies who match our young listed players in body weight. Love Charley Haley but would rather we spend money and get Manton from Port or similar who is a robust kpf who won't make an AFL list.

I've already told you Haley isn't coming back

 

[kickthething]

I don’t agree it’s purely down to experience and injuries (although I can’t deny they play a significant part, as does the absence of a forward target).

But we had 14 AFL listed players in the VFL side on Saturday.

Yes, they were young, but so were Brisbane’s. Indeed, the Lions had a first year player kick 4 majors.

For a team with 14 AFL listed players to lose a VFL game by nearly 20 goals is, in my view, a problem.

Either the youngsters aren’t developing (remember, they usually only get 2-3 years to prove themselves worth a place on the list), the top-up players are nowhere near VFL standard (a worry for someone like Indhi Kirk), or a combination of both.

14 AFL listed players and getting that result is an AFL issue, no doubt. that means 9 players were VFL listed or top up. We should perform better than that with so many AFL listed players in. I watched Coburg v North and North had 14 listed players as well with Coburg winless this season. Coburg led at 3/4 time. Coburg, who fortunately do not play Sydney this season, would beat our side right now.

 

[bedford]

14 AFL listed players and getting that result is an AFL issue, no doubt. that means 9 players were VFL listed or top up. We should perform better than that with so many AFL listed players in. I watched Coburg v North and North had 14 listed players as well with Coburg winless this season. Coburg led at 3/4 time. Coburg, who fortunately do not play Sydney this season, would beat our side right now.

NO

 

[kickthething]

NO

YES

 

[WillHayward]

Do we need a couple of mature players in the VFL side?
Blokes who are high 20s or 30s, maybe former AFL players who we get to play only VFL and in return we help with a job or something? Some good citizens and mature bodies?

Cant just be this noncompetitive. It impacts the entire morale of the joint.

 

[bedford]

Do we need a couple of mature players in the VFL side?
Blokes who are high 20s or 30s, maybe former AFL players who we get to play only VFL and in return we help with a job or something? Some good citizens and mature bodies?

Cant just be this noncompetitive. It impacts the entire morale of the joint.

Have you thought of a name change , swapping the W and H

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Have you thought of a name change , swapping the W and H

Gerard Healy now uses the joke. He was going through Hill‘s problems with goal kicking the other night.

 

[caesar88]

Gerard Healy now uses the joke. He was going through Hill‘s problems with goal kicking the other night.

Hayward's inaccuracy is the least of his problems

 

[WillHayward]

Have you thought of a name change , swapping the W and H

13 goals from 13 games this season. Pretty underwhelming for a bloke who plays full time forward.

Gary Rohan has 13 from 8.

JVR has 16 from 11.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Hayward's inaccuracy is the least of his problems

I believe the yips lead to other problems, eg dropping marks. He also doe not apply much defensive pressure as far as I can judge. A few times I’ve had the impression Oppo Coaches use Haywards opponent to bring the ball out of defence

 

[caesar88]

I believe the yips lead to other problems, eg dropping marks. He also doe not apply much defensive pressure as far as I can judge. A few times I’ve had the impression Oppo Coaches use Haywards opponent to bring the ball out of defence

His defensive pressure is just awful. I'm not even sure it's his fault. He just isn't strong enough. He's all skin & bones and no muscle or core strength to do basically anything except take overhead marks and snap goals off one step.

Very, very limited player unfortunately.

 

[WillHayward]

The issues with the reserves is purely down to the experience available and injuries.

Last year we had players like Sinclair, Bell, Ronke and Taylor available to provide senior support for most of the season and Cunningham later in the season to provide leadership to the 1st and 2nd year players, this year that support is not there save for Stephens, Melican, Gould and Wicks who have been into and out of the reserves side in any case.

The effect our injuries have had this year across the entire list has meant we are playing more top up players than we did at any point last year, in most case twice as many. Last year towards the end of the season we played with at most 4 or 5 top up players so most of the reserves team each week was made up of AFL listed players with the top up players being complementary pieces to the side. This year the number top up players has blown out to 9 to 11 depending on the needs of the senior side each week and the top up players are being relied upon to fill important roles that they weren't planned to be used in (also doesn't help that the two senior tops ups that we have in Collis and Shipley are currently missing due to injury as well).

The lack of a key forward at all for most of the season has been a big issue for the reserves side. Its not surprising that we have our best game when we get our hands on a forward and the next week we revert back to type when he is called up to the seniors and a 17 year old top up is expected to replace his output.

This just makes no sense at all.

Are you saying the reserves rely on Buller and somehow hes the lynch-pin? A bloke that arrived 2 seconds ago? He wasnt even on our list for half the season.

Our injuries arent miles worse than everyone else. A % of 59 is concerning and goes to overall depth.

If our reserves are too young and too small then that's a list mgt issue.

 

[robbieando]

I don’t agree it’s purely down to experience and injuries (although I can’t deny they play a significant part, as does the absence of a forward target).

But we had 14 AFL listed players in the VFL side on Saturday.

Yes, they were young, but so were Brisbane’s. Indeed, the Lions had a first year player kick 4 majors.

For a team with 14 AFL listed players to lose a VFL game by nearly 20 goals is, in my view, a problem.

Either the youngsters aren’t developing (remember, they usually only get 2-3 years to prove themselves worth a place on the list), the top-up players are nowhere near VFL standard (a worry for someone like Indhi Kirk), or a combination of both.

The Lions had 11 AFL listed players that have 3 or more years experience of being on an AFL list we only had 3. The Lions had 2 top up players on the weekend that have AFL senior experience, while we had none. The take away is the Lions had support for their young kids, we didn't.

The majority of our top up players are no where near VFL standard (at least not yet, I'm not expecting 17 year olds to come into the side and make a difference without any support) and not having any tall forwards or experienced midfielders like we had last year is hurting the development of the 1st and 2nd year players we have coming through.

Yes we shouldn't be losing by 20 goals but the issues at play are deeper than just the results on the field. We can't expect on 18 and 19 year olds to lead the VFL side to wins

 

[robbieando]

This just makes no sense at all.

Are you saying the reserves rely on Buller and somehow hes the lynch-pin? A bloke that arrived 2 seconds ago? He wasnt even on our list for half the season.

Our injuries arent miles worse than everyone else. A % of 59 is concerning and goes to overall depth.

If our reserves are too young and too small then that's a list mgt issue.

Read what I said. Clearly you can't understand the context of what I said.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

The Lions had 11 AFL listed players that have 3 or more years experience of being on an AFL list we only had 3. The Lions had 2 top up players on the weekend that have AFL senior experience, while we had none. The take away is the Lions had support for their young kids, we didn't.

The majority of our top up players are no where near VFL standard (at least not yet, I'm not expecting 17 year olds to come into the side and make a difference without any support) and not having any tall forwards or experienced midfielders like we had last year is hurting the development of the 1st and 2nd year players we have coming through.

Yes we shouldn't be losing by 20 goals but the issues at play are deeper than just the results on the field. We can't expect on 18 and 19 year olds to lead the VFL side to wins

Id hoped Sinkers and Taylor would stick around in playing and development roles. Most of the Ressies have a couple of top up players with AFL experience.

I have no idea how our Budget for top up players is going. I would be amazed if we were spending as much as others. As it stands I reckon only Shipley looks like he could’ve been an AFL player.

With such a young list I would favour an old fashioned captain coach.

I am aware Nic Newman has been getting his coaching tickets. Apparently* he has taken up some responsibilities in the Blues AFLW area. He will retire/be delisted next year. A recent AFL player with coaching ambitions like Nic would be ideal as a captain coach.

 

[TheMase]

Id hoped Sinkers and Taylor would stick around in playing and development roles. Most of the Ressies have a couple of top up players with AFL experience.

I have no idea how our Budget for top up players is going. I would be amazed if we were spending as much as others. As it stands I reckon only Shipley looks like he could’ve been an AFL player.

With such a young list I would favour an old fashioned captain coach.

I am aware Nic Newman has been getting his coaching tickets. Apparently* he has taken up some responsibilities in the Blues AFLW area. He will retire/be delisted next year. A recent AFL player with coaching ambitions like Nic would be ideal as a captain coach.

Suspect it’s difficult re top ups.
Probably not near top of budget however people probably won’t relocate for what’s on offer, already have stable jobs and families etc or too difficult with travelling every other weekend when can just get a game with a club near home.

Obviously the Victorian sides have a much better and higher quality pool from which to choose from.

 

[robbieando]

Id hoped Sinkers and Taylor would stick around in playing and development roles. Most of the Ressies have a couple of top up players with AFL experience.

I have no idea how our Budget for top up players is going. I would be amazed if we were spending as much as others. As it stands I reckon only Shipley looks like he could’ve been an AFL player.

With such a young list I would favour an old fashioned captain coach.

I am aware Nic Newman has been getting his coaching tickets. Apparently* he has taken up some responsibilities in the Blues AFLW area. He will retire/be delisted next year. A recent AFL player with coaching ambitions like Nic would be ideal as a captain coach.

Totally agree. We would be spending little on our top up players as most are former academy players who are living in Sydney rather than penny pinching on the clubs behalf. I would think the club is finding it hard to sign former AFL players for our top up list if they have to move to Sydney due to the cost of living, we are generally getting friends and family of current players. Should we allow for more fly in players if they help cover a certain position like a key forward or ruck if we have a run of injuries and depth is lacking?

Shipley is the only former AFL player on our top up list but with him injured currently it shows how much further senior experience is needed on our top up list and we should be looking at development roles for newly retired players that involve playing in the VFL. Would've loved to kept Bell and Sinkers but I think Bell wanted the exposure of a different league (and the better money on offer) and Sinkers I think has retired full stop.

While I don't agree entirely on the captain coach point. I agree that this is the kind of thinking we need to be looking at to help our younger players. No point putting out a reserves side if they can't at least compete to aid development.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

Totally agree. We would be spending little on our top up players as most are former academy players who are living in Sydney rather than penny pinching on the clubs behalf. I would think the club is finding it hard to sign former AFL players for our top up list if they have to move to Sydney due to the cost of living, we are generally getting friends and family of current players. Should we allow for more fly in players if they help cover a certain position like a key forward or ruck if we have a run of injuries and depth is lacking?

Shipley is the only former AFL player on our top up list but with him injured currently it shows how much further senior experience is needed on our top up list and we should be looking at development roles for newly retired players that involve playing in the VFL. Would've loved to kept Bell and Sinkers but I think Bell wanted the exposure of a different league (and the better money on offer) and Sinkers I think has retired full stop.

While I don't agree entirely on the captain coach point. I agree that this is the kind of thinking we need to be looking at to help our younger players. No point putting out a reserves side if they can't at least compete to aid development.

Up until this year, I was frustrated by the presence of “list cloggers” like Bell, Sam Gray, Taylor and Thurlow.

In hindsight, however, you probably need a few.

 

[melbournehammer]

I believe the yips lead to other problems, eg dropping marks. He also doe not apply much defensive pressure as far as I can judge. A few times I’ve had the impression Oppo Coaches use Haywards opponent to bring the ball out of defence

I agree with the first bit. The second isnt true if you and ceasar watch games youll often see hayward doing the chasing for buddy or any of the taller forwards who cant go with their man. His defensive workrate is actually quite high and he does make a lot of tckles.

That isnt haywards problem. The problem is our structure. Hayward and Heeney are encouraged to go for the mark. Maybe they shouldnt be but to be honest they are both better one on one players than the rest of our forwards including buddy in the air. But this creates a problem because if we have 5 players flying for marks or trying to make space for themselvers and therefore each other they tend to be a bloody long way away from the fall of the ball when it is kicked to mclean or buddy or whoever.

This is part of the reason why wicks works and gets goals - because he is never there for marking or space. His job is very old fashioned. Get front and centre and run off the pack. Even papley isnt really a ground level player in that sense - he is often trying to make space to be targetted by the kick. The five goals in a quarter against st kilda were essentially from the old fashioned clear the ball and kick it to 25 -35 metres out and crumb the spillage.

We are so poor around the centre however that we very rarely get this out of the middle kick to the middle and so the strategy of spread the forwards as much as possible means hayward and heeney either fly for the ball or are miles away from where it is going. In either case next to no defensive pressure

 

[caesar88]

Shoutout to Jordan Endemann, who copped a bump that fractured his jaw with his very first possession in the weekend's VFL game. Went on to have 18 touches and tbh looked sharper than pretty much all our listed players.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Shoutout to Jordan Endemann, who copped a bump that fractured his jaw with his very first possession in the weekend's VFL game. Went on to have 18 touches and tbh looked sharper than pretty much all our listed players.

we need an ouch react.

wishing the lad a speedy recovery. What an effort

 

[Deccas]

His defensive pressure is just awful. I'm not even sure it's his fault. He just isn't strong enough. He's all skin & bones and no muscle or core strength to do basically anything except take overhead marks and snap goals off one step.

Very, very limited player unfortunately.

Nearly 3 tackles a match. 6 against Carlton, 4 against Port Adelaide. His defensive application is fine.