VFL 2024 Swans Reserves

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Sydney was no match for Footscray, going down to the ladder-leaders by 37 points in the final round of the season.

After playing less than a quarter as the sub in Friday night's match against Essendon, Corey Warner fronted up for the VFL side and was among the Swans' better players

Warner collected 27 disposals, had 10 clearances and kicked a goal to put his hand up for a starting 22 position in the Swans' premiership push.

Young midfielder Angus Sheldrick also put his hand up for a recall, finishing with team-highs of 28 disposals and 12 clearances.

Rookie defender Harry Arnold (17 disposals, six marks) was solid down back, young mid Caleb Mitchell (18 disposals, six marks) found plenty of the ball, and ruck duo Peter Ladhams (17 hitouts, 17 disposals, one goal) and Lachlan McAndrew (24 hitouts, six tackles, three clearances) won the battle in the middle.

Joel Hamling kicked two goals to go with his 11 disposals and nine marks, while Aaron Francis (13 disposals, five marks) was ever-present.

Academy product Indhi Kirk (11 disposals, five tackles) and untried trio Tom Hanily (16 disposals), Jaiden Magor (17) and Will Green (one goal) were other Swans players in action.


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Adnico26Parker said:
Sydney was no match for Footscray, going down to the ladder-leaders by 37 points in the final round of the season.

After playing less than a quarter as the sub in Friday night's match against Essendon, Corey Warner fronted up for the VFL side and was among the Swans' better players

Warner collected 27 disposals, had 10 clearances and kicked a goal to put his hand up for a starting 22 position in the Swans' premiership push.

Young midfielder Angus Sheldrick also put his hand up for a recall, finishing with team-highs of 28 disposals and 12 clearances.

Rookie defender Harry Arnold (17 disposals, six marks) was solid down back, young mid Caleb Mitchell (18 disposals, six marks) found plenty of the ball, and ruck duo Peter Ladhams (17 hitouts, 17 disposals, one goal) and Lachlan McAndrew (24 hitouts, six tackles, three clearances) won the battle in the middle.

Joel Hamling kicked two goals to go with his 11 disposals and nine marks, while Aaron Francis (13 disposals, five marks) was ever-present.

Academy product Indhi Kirk (11 disposals, five tackles) and untried trio Tom Hanily (16 disposals), Jaiden Magor (17) and Will Green (one goal) were other Swans players in action.


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Click to expand...
Kinda cutting for Kirk, Hanily, Magor and Green to be described simply as “other Swans players in action”.

Harsh but fair.
 

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Dubai Quacker said:
Kinda cutting for Kirk, Hanily, Magor and Green to be described simply as “other Swans players in action”.

Harsh but fair.
Click to expand...
Was probably Hanily's worst game but still saw flashes of good things. Kirk, Magor, Vickery and Francis are probably hoping they didn't finish the year in that manner
 
Apparently Nicholas Shipley is playing for Terang-Mortlake this week. Can anyone offer some info for me please on what type of player he is?
 
caesar88 said:
Relatively silky wingman. Bit of a McInerney type. Probably our best non-listed VFL player over the last few seasons.
Click to expand...
He's our most talented non-listed VFL player by some margin, as evidenced by the fact he made it onto an AFL list and played a few games. I watched him tear us apart in one NEAFL game a few years ago when he was playing for the Giants. He was best on ground by such a margin it wasn't funny.

Unfortunately his body has proved a little fragile since he's been with us. He almost certainly doesn't have quite the same fitness that he did as a listed AFL player. So we've only had him in fits and start.
 
LONG POST INCOMING

I just wanted to share my thoughts on our squad players outside the senior selection frame (ie. those below that Cleary/Sheldrick/Warner Jr. trio)

The general consensus seems to be that a lot of them are underwhelming performers and failed picks. Konstanty, Vickery, Magor, McAndrew, Kirk, etc. (I personally would also have Mitchell teetering close to the edge of this group myself, though he has shown more than these names. Edwards, Snell & Green are exempt as bigger blokes still relatively new to the level.)

But I look at them and I think - are they that bad, or have they just not been given the same opportunities to surprise and succeed as past players have?

In 2022, we had six players in the 22under22 squad, the most in the competition. In 2021, we had four players in it, the second-most in the competition. In both years they were made up of players taken in drafts a few years earlier, between 2018 & 2020 - McCartin, Blakey, Rowbottom, McInerney, Warner and Gulden.

A few weeks ago, this year's 22under22 squad came out and we only had two players in it - Gulden and McDonald, and they were both in their final years of eligiblity.

So it's easy to say that group were better than this group (to be fair, they probably are - that past group of "youngsters" are almost all generational players that were always going to be hard to replicate.) But then I think about those opportunities that that group had.

In his first two seasons, Blakey was a skinny, scrawny, undersized key forward, then a wingman, and then even an inside mid, who showed heaps of potential but could hardly string a complete performance together to save his life. And yet, because of the team's circumstances (bottom four both years), he was rewarded with playing 37 out of a possible 39 games across those two years.

Across those same two seasons, McInerney was promoted to and demoted from the senior team a whopping seven times. But each time he was promoted to the senior side, we weren't any better as a team, meaning he was able to naturally improve via the reserves without getting left behind by the senior side.

At the start of 2021, we were coming off two bottom four seasons in a row, so Horse was willing to back in young, virtually untried kids like Warner, Gulden and Campbell, and the spots were theirs because there was no experienced recruits like Taylor Adams or James Jordon arriving to advance the club's premiership push.

This is not to say that those guys weren't deserving of their opportunities and didn't have to work hard and have the talent to earn them. The standard was simply lower for them to "make it" and become regular members of the team. This would also undoubtedly have filled them with more belief, knowing that opportunities were very gettable.

So I'm trying to keep that in mind every time I feel like typing "No one's banging the door down" about Magor, Vickery, etc. Some of these guys might just flourish in an alternate timeline where the door might be opened for them.
 

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caesar88 said:
LONG POST INCOMING

I just wanted to share my thoughts on our squad players outside the senior selection frame (ie. those below that Cleary/Sheldrick/Warner Jr. trio)

The general consensus seems to be that a lot of them are underwhelming performers and failed picks. Konstanty, Vickery, Magor, McAndrew, Kirk, etc. (I personally would also have Mitchell teetering close to the edge of this group myself, though he has shown more than these names. Edwards, Snell & Green are exempt
Click to expand...

If Mitchell is the best of that group and Corey Warner keeps being picked ahead of them, then I would say they really are that bad.
 
caesar88 said:
LONG POST INCOMING

I just wanted to share my thoughts on our squad players outside the senior selection frame (ie. those below that Cleary/Sheldrick/Warner Jr. trio)

The general consensus seems to be that a lot of them are underwhelming performers and failed picks. Konstanty, Vickery, Magor, McAndrew, Kirk, etc. (I personally would also have Mitchell teetering close to the edge of this group myself, though he has shown more than these names. Edwards, Snell & Green are exempt as bigger blokes still relatively new to the level.)

But I look at them and I think - are they that bad, or have they just not been given the same opportunities to surprise and succeed as past players have?

In 2022, we had six players in the 22under22 squad, the most in the competition. In 2021, we had four players in it, the second-most in the competition. In both years they were made up of players taken in drafts a few years earlier, between 2018 & 2020 - McCartin, Blakey, Rowbottom, McInerney, Warner and Gulden.

A few weeks ago, this year's 22under22 squad came out and we only had two players in it - Gulden and McDonald, and they were both in their final years of eligiblity.

So it's easy to say that group were better than this group (to be fair, they probably are - that past group of "youngsters" are almost all generational players that were always going to be hard to replicate.) But then I think about those opportunities that that group had.

In his first two seasons, Blakey was a skinny, scrawny, undersized key forward, then a wingman, and then even an inside mid, who showed heaps of potential but could hardly string a complete performance together to save his life. And yet, because of the team's circumstances (bottom four both years), he was rewarded with playing 37 out of a possible 39 games across those two years.

Across those same two seasons, McInerney was promoted to and demoted from the senior team a whopping seven times. But each time he was promoted to the senior side, we weren't any better as a team, meaning he was able to naturally improve via the reserves without getting left behind by the senior side.

At the start of 2021, we were coming off two bottom four seasons in a row, so Horse was willing to back in young, virtually untried kids like Warner, Gulden and Campbell, and the spots were theirs because there was no experienced recruits like Taylor Adams or James Jordon arriving to advance the club's premiership push.

This is not to say that those guys weren't deserving of their opportunities and didn't have to work hard and have the talent to earn them. The standard was simply lower for them to "make it" and become regular members of the team. This would also undoubtedly have filled them with more belief, knowing that opportunities were very gettable.

So I'm trying to keep that in mind every time I feel like typing "No one's banging the door down" about Magor, Vickery, etc. Some of these guys might just flourish in an alternate timeline where the door might be opened for them.
Click to expand...
We used to pat ourselves on the back as a club that was second to none in recognising and developing talent. If that was ever true (I am not convinced) I don't believe it is now.
The draft:
We bypassed Weddle to take Konstanty, plucked Vickery from obscurity, Mitchell at least had decent physical attributes and rookied Magor because we were surprised no-one took him. Seriously?
We picked skinny flankers, a fat defender and a one dimensional midfielder who turned into gold.
Sheldrick, Roberts and Corey are thereabouts.
Last year's look the goods.
But all in all we haven't done all that well.
Development:
Who has surprised us with their improvement?
Cleary. That's it since Chad IMO. The others are where they should be or worse.
 
Kiama Chris said:
We used to pat ourselves on the back as a club that was second to none in recognising and developing talent. If that was ever true (I am not convinced) I don't believe it is now.
The draft:
We bypassed Weddle to take Konstanty, plucked Vickery from obscurity, Mitchell at least had decent physical attributes and rookied Magor because we were surprised no-one took him. Seriously?
We picked skinny flankers, a fat defender and a one dimensional midfielder who turned into gold.
Sheldrick, Roberts and Corey are thereabouts.
Last year's look the goods.
But all in all we haven't done all that well.
Development:
Who has surprised us with their improvement?
Cleary. That's it since Chad IMO. The others are where they should be or worse.
Click to expand...
On the surface I don't disagree KC, but I guess what I'm wondering is if beneath the surface, do these guys just need the opportunity to pleasantly surprise us like others before them did?

I just find it hard to believe that Beatson & co could go from being a recruiting team so adept at finding quality talent at any pick, to suddenly being so inept at it in just a few short years. And I'm not convinced it's a coincidence that these lean few years have coincided with us challenging for premierships and giving young players less opportunities.

And I'm not saying we should give them those opportunities. Wins and a flag push have to take priority over giving young kids a go. It's just something that is worth considering when we write them off as no good.
 
caesar88 said:
On the surface I don't disagree KC, but I guess what I'm wondering is if beneath the surface, do these guys just need the opportunity to pleasantly surprise us like others before them did?

I just find it hard to believe that Beatson & co could go from being a recruiting team so adept at finding quality talent at any pick, to suddenly being so inept at it in just a few short years. And I'm not convinced it's a coincidence that these lean few years have coincided with us challenging for premierships and giving young players less opportunities.

And I'm not saying we should give them those opportunities. Wins and a flag push have to take priority over giving young kids a go. It's just something that is worth considering when we write them off as no good.
Click to expand...
As someone who spent a lot of my working life developing young talent I know there's a lot more to it than just providing a run in seniors. I know you do too.
Developing basics through training and extras
Leading patterns
Leadership
Tackling techniques
Aerobic fitness
Etc etc etc
What concerns me is not seeing results from this type of activity in Ressies games.
As someone who followed NEAFL pretty closely I noticed a lot of this sort of stuff going on, even on the day.
I admit I don't follow VFL as closely but who are the leaders? Who tries to put the team on their back? These are the issues that concern me.
I'm delighted that Cleary has shown as much as he has but I wonder if that's a hangover from the Academy rather than the development he's been exposed to this year.
End of second rant on pet subject.
 
Kiama Chris said:
As someone who spent a lot of my working life developing young talent I know there's a lot more to it than just providing a run in seniors. I know you do too.
Developing basics through training and extras
Leading patterns
Leadership
Tackling techniques
Aerobic fitness
Etc etc etc
What concerns me is not seeing results from this type of activity in Ressies games.
As someone who followed NEAFL pretty closely I noticed a lot of this sort of stuff going on, even on the day.
I admit I don't follow VFL as closely but who are the leaders? Who tries to put the team on their back? These are the issues that concern me.
I'm delighted that Cleary has shown as much as he has but I wonder if that's a hangover from the Academy rather than the development he's been exposed to this year.
End of second rant on pet subject.
Click to expand...
You can rant away all you like KC. I like the discussion, and wasn't even sure if what I was proposing was correct. Was more just thinking out loud.

I guess it just feels like there's a decent portion of our list that are almost in another realm to the rest. I described them a few weeks ago as they might as well be wearing "OUT OF ORDER" signs. Guys like Vickery, Magor, Konstanty, Kirk etc. feel like they are part of a different team and club. They're lucky if they are named senior emergency once or twice a year.

Senior footy must feel light years away for them. I think that belief that you can make it and that you're getting somewhere with your footy is important to playing well, so by the same token, if you don't have that belief then I'd imagine that's not conducive to playing well.
 
caesar88 said:
You can rant away all you like KC. I like the discussion, and wasn't even sure if what I was proposing was correct. Was more just thinking out loud.

I guess it just feels like there's a decent portion of our list that are almost in another realm to the rest. I described them a few weeks ago as they might as well be wearing "OUT OF ORDER" signs. Guys like Vickery, Magor, Konstanty, Kirk etc. feel like they are part of a different team and club. They're lucky if they are named senior emergency once or twice a year.

Senior footy must feel light years away for them. I think that belief that you can make it and that you're getting somewhere with your footy is important to playing well, so by the same token, if you don't have that belief then I'd imagine that's not conducive to playing well.
Click to expand...
"That you're getting somewhere with your footy" nails it. A run in seniors is the most concrete evidence, a turn at emergency helps, but you have identified the issue I think for these other guys - "in another realm". If it's real it's death to development. That's my concern. Buchanan was Development Coach last year but I'm not sure if he still is. 🤔🤔🤔
 
Kiama Chris said:
We used to pat ourselves on the back as a club that was second to none in recognising and developing talent. If that was ever true (I am not convinced) I don't believe it is now.
The draft:
We bypassed Weddle to take Konstanty, plucked Vickery from obscurity, Mitchell at least had decent physical attributes and rookied Magor because we were surprised no-one took him. Seriously?
We picked skinny flankers, a fat defender and a one dimensional midfielder who turned into gold.
Sheldrick, Roberts and Corey are thereabouts.
Last year's look the goods.
But all in all we haven't done all that well.
Development:
Who has surprised us with their improvement?
Cleary. That's it since Chad IMO. The others are where they should be or worse.
Click to expand...
I wanted Weddle or other taller types over Konstanty, but I think you have to take into account his run of injuries. He probably did get a fair enough run of games this year to show what he could do, but it's a lot less settled time to work with than you'd hope.

Magor I'd seen talked about for the latter stages of the national draft, so was happy when we got him. A medium forward, known for kicking bags, and some time as an inside mid. Obviously we have mostly played him elsewhere, justified last year, but questionable this year.

I think we can say Roberts is more than thereabouts. And same with Sheldrick based off his time in seniors last year, with injury impact before and since.

Think some of it is drafting, some of it development and also some of it out of our control.
 
Bloods86 said:
I wanted Weddle or other taller types over Konstanty, but I think you have to take into account his run of injuries. He probably did get a fair enough run of games this year to show what he could do, but it's a lot less settled time to work with than you'd hope.

Magor I'd seen talked about for the latter stages of the national draft, so was happy when we got him. A medium forward, known for kicking bags, and some time as an inside mid. Obviously we have mostly played him elsewhere, justified last year, but questionable this year.

I think we can say Roberts is more than thereabouts. And same with Sheldrick based off his time in seniors last year, with injury impact before and since.

Think some of it is drafting, some of it development and also some of it out of our control.
Click to expand...
Roberts, Sheldrick and Corey are not best 22 with everyone fit (though you could argue Roberts). IMO they are in the next tier ie AFL quality but fringe. Thereabouts. Mitchell close. Cleary getting closish.
It would be great to know which of those last three it is for the guys not making it. We invest a lot of time, effort and money to delist someone.
 
Kiama Chris said:
Roberts, Sheldrick and Corey are not best 22 with everyone fit (though you could argue Roberts). IMO they are in the next tier ie AFL quality but fringe. Thereabouts. Mitchell close. Cleary getting closish.
It would be great to know which of those last three it is for the guys not making it. We invest a lot of time, effort and money to delist someone.
Click to expand...

I would argue Roberts in the coach's eyes, possibly in mine.

Not sure Sheldrick has to be in the Best 22, less so Mitchell, and certainly not Cleary, when we are a top side challenging for a flag.

We've moved on from a few years ago where we had additional 18-21 year olds playing a lot early in our Best 22. A more mature side.
 
The most notable thing about the reserves this year to me has been the apparent lack of progress in their development.There seems to have been so many things going wrong with the ones I thought had promise.

Will Edwards and his poisoned leg and now a
broken one. Konstanty constantly injured. Vickery injured early on. Buller's back. Arnold's back. Gus's ankle. Will Snell's hammy just when Melican was injured . Kirk's concussions.

Of the young players that remained fit, basically Magor and Mitchell, improvement seemed flat. Though I remain a fan of Magor's skillset.

The exceptions are that there seemed to be some improvement in McAndrew's as the year went on and his match involvement increased, and Green looks good for a ruckman of his age.Warner has definitely improved his game.

Hanily looked good early but dropped off a bit after getting injured. The jury is out on him until he has a pre-season under his belt.

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk
 
Bloods86 said:
I wanted Weddle or other taller types over Konstanty, but I think you have to take into account his run of injuries. He probably did get a fair enough run of games this year to show what he could do, but it's a lot less settled time to work with than you'd hope.

Magor I'd seen talked about for the latter stages of the national draft, so was happy when we got him. A medium forward, known for kicking bags, and some time as an inside mid. Obviously we have mostly played him elsewhere, justified last year, but questionable this year.

I think we can say Roberts is more than thereabouts. And same with Sheldrick based off his time in seniors last year, with injury impact before and since.

Think some of it is drafting, some of it development and also some of it out of our control.
Click to expand...
One thing I don't understand is why we draft medium defenders.
Our list going back decades has drafted midfielders and they end up in the backline. Rampe, Roberts, Blakey, Florent, Cunningham. Same happens in the forwards. Corey, Cleary, Parker, JJ. Swans stack the backline and forwards with mids. Why do we waste draft picks on medium defenders like Magor and Vickery?
 
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