List Mgmt. 2023 Trade & List Management discussion

[irish]

The players of recent decades who you would describe as having mongrel can all play.

The last teams to have mongrels who were there just for that were in the '70's

look i am not saying players with mongrel as dirty hit behind the play types i am talking solid hard straight line types , de goyey selwood ,May so we are not talking 70s biff types

 

[T Rick]

The West Coast List Manager seemed quietly confident they could get Dev. Sounds like they have had plenty of talks prior to the finals. I reckon he might be gone. Hope I'm wrong.

Such a difficult decision for Dev - I can understand his dilemma. Return home to WA and be guaranteed a "best 22" position in a team that could easily hover in the bottom 6 for at least another 4-5 years during a rebuild that will inevitably mean a new coach at some point in the not too distant future.
Or stay at the Lions and play in a premiership contending side but have to compete for a spot that is not guaranteed just yet. We have a couple of players, including Zorko on the cusp of retirement that could quickly change the landscape for him but against that, we most likely have Levi Ashcroft on the list in 2025.
I think the vast majority of Lions people would be really disappointed to see him leave but at the same time fully understand his decision to go.
I really hope he stays...

 

[Nathan Barley]

If he's not backing himself to be best 22 for us next year then the club should move him on and he should also hope that West Coast continue to be a basket case so he can get a game

 

[bungalow_bill]

It wasn’t just Hill though.

Lester was constantly being beaten by his man.

Andrews wasn’t able to intercept at Will, and create drive from turn overs.

It was our defensive unit as a whole not coping with the oppositions tactics.

Part of that was a personal issue. Both in the midfield and defence.

We picked the best defensive unit we had, but our three talls are all slow. Nor were they ideal match ups for their opponents.

But defenders are often only as good as the midfield in front of them. And our mids lost their battle, which put our defenders under pressure.


Watching the game on TV, my thought halfway through the third quarter was that we needed to sub out Lester, and push Ah Chee in to defence to try and defend Hill.

But that would have exposed our midfield even more, because Lyons can’t run for sh!t any more. (hey I’ve entered the anger stage, whoopee)

It's probably time we moved on from Lester. He was truly awful. Hopefully we can replace him with Doedee

 

[_Big_D_]

Can we pls get Mac Andrew from the Suns? Tysm

 

[briztoon]

I'm confused as to why a few posters like yourself believe we need to change up or tweak our forwad line. In the last 5 years we have either been the 1st or 2nd highest scoring team in the competition. If there were cracks in our set-up, there is no way we could have achieved those types of numbers given the delivery into the forward line was often like a grenade thrown out of a bunker.
I agree our tall forwards dont take as many contested marks as other teams but statistics show that hasn't stopped our potency when the ball is in our 50 arc. Joey finished 5th in the goal kicking, Charlie 6th and Hippy 15th!!! Other clubs would revel having three of their forwards in the top 15 goal kickers in any given season.
The main improvement we can make in our forward line coming into 2024 would be to improve the delivery into it...apart from that, we need to look further up the ground for upgrades or changing strategies when in attack.

I don’t believe people are looking at improved scoring when discussing our forward line.

It’s the other parts of the game that our forwards don’t contribute enough to help the team as a whole.

As StevoJenkins mentioned in his post, having a genuine contested mark down the line, when we’re kicking the ball down the line. Especially if Oscar is off the ground and Daniher is playing ruck, and isn’t set up as a target down the line.

I’ve mentioned our half forwards not supporting the midfield and helping to even the numbers in midfield against teams, like Collingwood and GWS, that like to out number oppositions at the contest.

 

[briztoon]

WCE List Manager:

Gone.

 

[briztoon]

Such a difficult decision for Dev - I can understand his dilemma. Return home to WA and be guaranteed a "best 22" position in a team that could easily hover in the bottom 6 for at least another 4-5 years during a rebuild that will inevitably mean a new coach at some point in the not too distant future.
Or stay at the Lions and play in a premiership contending side but have to compete for a spot that is not guaranteed just yet. We have a couple of players, including Zorko on the cusp of retirement that could quickly change the landscape for him but against that, we most likely have Levi Ashcroft on the list in 2025.
I think the vast majority of Lions people would be really disappointed to see him leave but at the same time fully understand his decision to go.
I really hope he stays...

If an opposition list manager is open about talking about bringing in one of our players, my thinking is that player is as good as gone already, and list managers talking about a player is just messaging to their fan base.

 

[martinson]

I don’t believe people are looking at improved scoring when discussing our forward line.

It’s the other parts of the game that our forwards don’t contribute enough to help the team as a whole.

As StevoJenkins mentioned in his post, having a genuine contested mark down the line, when we’re kicking the ball down the line. Especially if Oscar is off the ground and Daniher is playing ruck, and isn’t set up as a target down the line.

I’ve mentioned our half forwards not supporting the midfield and helping to even the numbers in midfield against teams, like Collingwood and GWS, that like to out number oppositions at the contest.

That's happened in many games of recent times and was particularly evident on Saturday. They had numbers at the contest between half forward and half back. When we were able to get it ourselves we generally scored but the majority of the time it cost us.

 

[briztoon]

Can we pls get Mac Andrew from the Suns? Tysm

So we have our own version of Hipwood in defence?

 

[martinson]

If an opposition list manager is open about talking about bringing in one of our players, my thinking is that player is as good as gone already, and list managers talking about a player is just messaging to their fan base.

We're not hearing from him.

 

[Nathan Barley]

If an opposition list manager is open about talking about bringing in one of our players, my thinking is that player is as good as gone already, and list managers talking about a player is just messaging to their fan base.

We don't need to mention Freo announcing Mitch Clark though

 

[Squizz89]

If an opposition list manager is open about talking about bringing in one of our players, my thinking is that player is as good as gone already, and list managers talking about a player is just messaging to their fan base.

Yep, I didn’t hear his tone of voice but certainly the way it reads it sounds like he’s gone.

Shame really as (imo) our best two finals series (this year and last), he’s finished in the team, so he should trust himself to keep his spot because I think there’s one there for him.

 

[briztoon]

That's happened in many games of recent times and was particularly evident on Saturday. They had numbers at the contest between half forward and half back. When we were able to get it ourselves we generally scored but the majority of the time it cost us.

Main reason why Collingwood had 9 more scoring shots.

 

[Thomasno]

I’m just going to sit here and quietly manifest Dev staying

When are exit interviews? I would’ve thought today, but looking on social media it seems that today is Mad ?Tuesday; and given the Club B&F is tomorrow surely they don’t just smash them all out tomorrow

 

[Mighty Lions]

The West Coast List Manager seemed quietly confident they could get Dev. Sounds like they have had plenty of talks prior to the finals. I reckon he might be gone. Hope I'm wrong.

Don't believe you are wrong. Do believe his manager (not Dev individually) has had several strong chats with the Eagles and left Dev alone until after the GF.

 

[Mighty Lions]

I don’t believe people are looking at improved scoring when discussing our forward line.

It’s the other parts of the game that our forwards don’t contribute enough to help the team as a whole.

As StevoJenkins mentioned in his post, having a genuine contested mark down the line, when we’re kicking the ball down the line. Especially if Oscar is off the ground and Daniher is playing ruck, and isn’t set up as a target down the line.

I’ve mentioned our half forwards not supporting the midfield and helping to even the numbers in midfield against teams, like Collingwood and GWS, that like to out number oppositions at the contest.

Still confused as to how they can help more by scoring more than than our opponent. You go to improve one part and possbily down grade another that is our "jewel in the crown"...it makes no sense. Our forward line is lethal now and unique to all other teams in the competition. You change that and risk taking that advantage away.
Simply put, our delievery into the forward line would help because our speed and ground work when the ball comes in is first class. Changing that is not good coaching or footy in my opinion.
Further to that, our defensive stats in our forward line has been well above avarage since Murray Davis was moved as forwards coach...again, why fix something thats not broken nor lacking???

 

[briztoon]

Still confused as to how they can help more by scoring more than than our opponent. You go to improve one part and possbily down grade another that is our "jewel in the crown"...it makes no sense. Our forward line is lethal now and unique to all other teams in the competition. You change that and risk taking that advantage away.
Simply put, our delievery into the forward line would help because our speed and ground work when the ball comes in is first class. Changing that is not good coaching or footy in my opinion.
Further to that, our defensive stats in our forward line has been well above avarage since Murray Davis was moved as forwards coach...again, why fix something thats not broken nor lacking???

Our midfield was lacking against Collingwood. Win the midfield battle and we probably win last Saturday.

And our forwards didn’t score more than our opponents.

Our half forwards working harder would help in that regard.

Taking a contested mark down the line, when we are clearing from defence is also another step in turning defence in to attack.

Our biggest challenge there is that we usually are beat by an opposition playing coming across as the third man.

Or if the ball goes to ground, we don’t have enough smalls to crumb the ball.

Either way, the ball is going back in to our defensive 50, and that’s not helping our élite forward line.

 

[Eons]

Does anyone else think a fit Kiddy could move up and play on the wing? I get excited thinking about how magical it would be watching him deliver the ball inside 50 more often.

 

[Quigley]

On a few of the players being discussed here, my two cents:

Doedee - he is a fine player when he is fit but we should be using our money elsewhere. People are talking him up as a third tall defender without realising that he is only 187cm. He is a good mark but he is medium defender and not a third tall. This is the role currently played by Starc who he is not going to replace. Madden, Michael and Prior are all back up medium defender options who are actually taller than Doedee. Personally I really like what Madden could bring to the side given a decent run of games. Then there is Brain who came on exceptionally well in the reserves when he was moved back. He is 1cm shorter than Doedee and plays a similar type of game. The depth in our small / medium defensive unit is by far the best in the team and personally I cannot understand why we would likely be paying a premium to throw another player into the mix. At best he would be a slight incremental improvement for a bench spot and that is when he is available, which has not been much in recent years.

Mac Andrew - is still only 19 and has been playing as a defender for the GC. At that age the expectations for skinny talls is that they make virtually zero contribution and I actually think he has been better than that. He is still not strong in the body but he is a good mark despite what briz may think on this one. He averaged 5.2 marks a game this year and that is good given his age and body type. His athleticism is great and I do think he will fill out well as he develops. Personally I still prefer him as a mobile ruck who can drift forward but I am not ruling him out as a defender. He is so young he could still turn out to be anything.

Bailey - was actually a good two way runner before he was shifted forward and then suddenly he lost all motivation to defend even when he was shifted back into the middle. He can do it I just think the coaches need to rekindle his motivation to work defensively. The ceiling on him I believe is still very high if he ups his running power and he is given more midfield time. Overall this year I was not impressed with him through the middle but I still think he can do it.

 

[Quigley]

Does anyone else think a fit Kiddy could move up and play on the wing? I get excited thinking about how magical it would be watching him deliver the ball inside 50 more often.

Carlton dragged him up onto the wing more and that worked great for us. Not sure he has the tank for that though on a full time basis.

 

[royboys4eva]

If an opposition list manager is open about talking about bringing in one of our players, my thinking is that player is as good as gone already, and list managers talking about a player is just messaging to their fan base.

That's exactly how I read it as well. They have clearly had strong discussions about what a contract at the Eagles would look like. They haven't been told no. I think Dev was probably hoping to win a Premiership then leave for more opportunities.

Hope he stays - for me he is required player. I feel he might be on the way out.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Our midfield was lacking against Collingwood. Win the midfield battle and we probably win last Saturday.

And our forwards didn’t score more than our opponents.

Our half forwards working harder would help in that regard.

Taking a contested mark down the line, when we are clearing from defence is also another step in turning defence in to attack.

Our biggest challenge there is that we usually are beat by an opposition playing coming across as the third man.

Or if the ball goes to ground, we don’t have enough smalls to crumb the ball.

Either way, the ball is going back in to our defensive 50, and that’s not helping our élite forward line.

We played the last game in September and lost by 4 points which in the end could have gone either way. Not sure you can pinpoint any specific weakness that cost us that game......further to that, should we have won by 4 points, most posters would not even post comments as such.

Throughout the year we did outscore our opponents 17 to 6....not a bad stat to be grateful for.

As I said in my previous post, our forward line's defensive efforts in 2023 were well above average & better than most. In summary, our forward lines defensive efforts was a significant improvement from previous years and could easily be one of the reasons why we made the GF.

Taking contested marks is great (the only comment in your post I agree with) but just as important is bringing the ball to ground & stopping the intercept marks from the opposition. Leading in contested marks still doesn't guarantee winning games & doesnt guarantee our forward line would be better if that stat changed by looking for a player outside of who we already have & taking away our current advantage.

Dont agree with those last 3 comments one bit & there are certainly no stats backing that up.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Such a difficult decision for Dev - I can understand his dilemma. Return home to WA and be guaranteed a "best 22" position in a team that could easily hover in the bottom 6 for at least another 4-5 years during a rebuild that will inevitably mean a new coach at some point in the not too distant future.
Or stay at the Lions and play in a premiership contending side but have to compete for a spot that is not guaranteed just yet. We have a couple of players, including Zorko on the cusp of retirement that could quickly change the landscape for him but against that, we most likely have Levi Ashcroft on the list in 2025.
I think the vast majority of Lions people would be really disappointed to see him leave but at the same time fully understand his decision to go.
I really hope he stays...

Same could be said for Kai who just re-signed and stated that he could not get a better group to learn from and improve his footy at another club. I guess at the end of the day he needs to make a call whatever is right for him.

 

[Dodongo]

Dodongo read on the AFL website that club's think Oliver is gettable.

Dodongo would send Rayner to Melbourne in a heart beat in any deal to claim Oliver.